Couldn't believe the improvement of my Kill:Death ratio switching to CRT

TheGooch69 said:
I wonder if having a high DPI mouse, like a 4000+ DPI will counter affect the ability of aim precisely in FPS games. That's my main problem with the XHD3000, even at native resolution it's a bitch to precisely aim at a sniper from afar in CoD4 due to input lag. I am using the Razer Diamondhead now. It has 1800DPI but I wonder if upgrading might help.
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High DPI mice help high sensitivity players (who use small mouse movements to turn large rotations) A high DPI mouse or even a mouse which forces the USB port to poll at full speed (1000hz) won't solve input lag problems with the monitor. If your monitor has a natural input latency there's nothing you can do about it.

ex0du5 said:
I know my Sammy 2232BW does not have any input lag at all. I just moved from a older 19inch Dell CRT.

I miss the high refresh rate of the CRT. While the ghosting is about non apparent on this LCD, tearing is extremely apparently. Running at 100Hz on my old monitor, It was near impossible to notice tearing as long as the framerate was high enough. Running at 60Hz on this newer LCD, I find the 1/60th of a second it takes to refresh the screen makes tearing extremely noticeable.
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This is because tearing occurs more frequently the higher your frame rate is above your refresh rate, it's harder to obtain 100fps than 60fps.

xerus` said:
Yay, CRTs represent! I still have not found an LCD that satisfies me, so I still sit at my desk with 2x 19" CRTs... ;D
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I've kept my old Iiyama 19" CRT, it's still very high quality and has amazing dot pitch with 2048x1536 @ 75hz, but it's losing its brightness unfortunately :/

Zero82z said:
A shitty mouse causing bad aim is much more likely than an input lag issue. The mouse is the most important peripheral for a gamer, so you should never skimp out and buy a cheap one or you'll end up regretting it.
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Not so sure about this, even the shit mice still basically work fine just at lower accuracies and at the end of the day you can just lower your sensitivity to a point where you're happy with the accuracy. Where as a monitor which happens to have a lot of input lag you're stuck with, theres no real way to compensate for that delay, you're always going to overshoot your target and then have to re-adjust.

ojax said:
Yah LCD's suck for gaming... :rolleyes:

Do I need to show pics of every pro gaming event in the past 3 years and show you they are ALL using LCD screens? Even Fatality has been using LCD monitors in his biggest matches for a while now... Do you really think its the monitor, or most of you just suck and are looking for things to blame for it? If using a CRT over any LCD improves your skill so much, read above...
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I think pro's are good because of the amount of time they put into the game, the equipment might make a difference between 2 pros playing each other, but in comparison between a pro and an average gamer, the kit makes hardly any difference at all.

Hamidxa said:
My name is Hamidxa, and I approve of these posts.
They are both, respectively, on the money.
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Thanks :p

Nenu said:
There is no point using higher than 60Hz on an LCD and it can even make your gaming less smooth.
Pushing nearly all LCDs past 60Hz allows the PC to render more frames but the LCD will drop frames to give you 60Hz output again.
This can result in jerky gameplay.
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Exactly, don't bother forcing higher refresh rates on LCD's it wont actualy give you more refreshes per second as it drops certain refreshes, this causes inconsistent refresh times and can cause all sorts of issues.
 
The high refresh rate of CRT was not to remove flickering?
How can a LCD has flickering?

Flickering was causing headache in my case. My lcd was also hard for eyes at the beginning but now I use the text inbuild setup and everything is fine now. When I play games or movies, I switch to the max brightness contrast settings. Still, in some movies where the scene are to dark, I can't see anything.

I can understand the old LCDs had problem with latency/lag. The image was not clear on large screen and even the owner of a huge store in Montreal said on radio that people should wait to buy until the lcd get better.

But now, beside the problem with the black, I don't see any problem with new LCDs. I remember my CRT had goshting for white over black and my lcd doesn't. It was cleary visible when moving the mouse around a blackscreen.

I'm sorry but if you see gohsting on recent LCD, you are either superman or you have hallucination. It can happed on rare case(like hockey and when the camera move super fast), but I would like to have a CRT side by side and see if the problem is not the source.
I don't remember seeing this on a crt ever, maybe I just didn't notice.

I can do a 180degre in games in less than 0.50ms and I don't see any lag or goshting on my LCD.
 
I have refresh rates that my monitor won't support hidden....My LCD supports 60 and 75 hz should I stay at 60 or 75????? Thanks
 
One of the best people I know at CS:S plays with a cheapie mouse, a low input lag monitor at 1280x1024. Why? Because it's about skill and not hardware until you get to the VERY high end of gamers. If your "aiming is off", that has nothing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with monitor lag. If your aiming is dead on, and your not killing people. Then we can start talking about lag and where it's coming from. I've seen cases of bad monitor lag, so I don't deny it exists. But at the same time, I'd reason 90% of the problems people have is they suck :(.

For the record, I now game on a Samsung 245BW. ZOMG ITS A TN PANNEL!?!??!?!! yeah, and it has only a 7ms input lag. If your ping is around 50ms that means your connection lag is 714% greater than your input lag. Of course if you have one of the horrible ones that has 50+ms input lags and a 50ms lag you are talking about a ping of 100. This is high enough to start causing problems.
 
vengence said:
For the record, I now game on a Samsung 245BW. ZOMG ITS A TN PANNEL!?!??!?!! yeah, and it has only a 7ms input lag. If your ping is around 50ms that means your connection lag is 714% greater than your input lag. Of course if you have one of the horrible ones that has 50+ms input lags and a 50ms lag you are talking about a ping of 100. This is high enough to start causing problems.
Click to expand...

That's fine if you're playing by yourself. If we use your numbers let's say your opponent also has a 50ms ping but his monitor has a 2ms response time. If you're both at the exact same skill level you just lost. :D

I agree with your first paragraph. We all just suck more at FPS games than we think we do. :cool:
 
I have to ask this: how much lag does it take before gameplay is affected? 5 ms? 10? 20? Because let's face it...in the vast majority of situations, a few ms lag won't affect the outcome in any way. We're talking about a few hundredths of a second here at most. That's simply not enough time for things to change substantially except in certain circumstances.
 
PopeKevinI said:
I have to ask this: how much lag does it take before gameplay is affected? 5 ms? 10? 20? Because let's face it...in the vast majority of situations, a few ms lag won't affect the outcome in any way. We're talking about a few hundredths of a second here at most. That's simply not enough time for things to change substantially except in certain circumstances.
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It depends on the lag your opponent gets if playing multiplayer.
 
We should also consider that all of the people we face online are more than likely also using a LCD. How many people still use CRTs that are playing CoD4 online? I think the mass majority play on a LCD. Thus, the majority are playing against each other with different levels of input lag.

Also, to say hardware doesn't make a difference and it's all about skill is wrong. You can have a Nascar driver whos driving a Honda Civic race me in a Dodge Viper. Just because the Nascar driver is better skilled, doesn't mean he'll win with a piece of shit car.
 
vengence said:
For the record, I now game on a Samsung 245BW. ZOMG ITS A TN PANNEL!?!??!?!! yeah, and it has only a 7ms input lag. If your ping is around 50ms that means your connection lag is 714% greater than your input lag. Of course if you have one of the horrible ones that has 50+ms input lags and a 50ms lag you are talking about a ping of 100. This is high enough to start causing problems.
Click to expand...

Do you mean it's got a 7ms response time?

Response time is not the same as input lag, response time is the time it takes for the pixels to change between various shades of colour, input lag is not usualy given as a measurement for monitors but has to be gauged by users.

These 2 things are not the same.
 
TheGooch69 said:
Also, to say hardware doesn't make a difference and it's all about skill is wrong. You can have a Nascar driver whos driving a Honda Civic race me in a Dodge Viper. Just because the Nascar driver is better skilled, doesn't mean he'll win with a piece of shit car.
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hahaha


I'm far from a pro and I've been playing CoD4 and TF2 on an LCD with a ping of around 150 and I can consistantly get in the top 5. If you think playing on an LCD is holding you back you might want to examine your skills at the games you're playing.
 
Do you mean it's got a 7ms response time?

Response time is not the same as input lag, response time is the time it takes for the pixels to change between various shades of colour, input lag is not usualy given as a measurement for monitors but has to be gauged by users.

These 2 things are not the same.
Click to expand...

tickle_me_emo said:
inputlagsv4.jpg

(source)
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No, I mean it has 7.5 ms of input lag. The 245BW is just a refresh of the 245B :)


Also, to say hardware doesn't make a difference and it's all about skill is wrong. You can have a Nascar driver whos driving a Honda Civic race me in a Dodge Viper. Just because the Nascar driver is better skilled, doesn't mean he'll win with a piece of shit car.
Click to expand...

As long as everyone is getting 60 fps and relatively low input lag times then hardware won't make much of difference. Even if your generating 20,000 fps doesn't make you move your mouse over their head any faster or better. Your arm controling your mouse does. Yes you might get to react 5-10 ms better on a GOOD LCD vs a poor one, however 95%+ of FPS battles are not decided by 5-10 ms.
 
skimmed through the thread and just so everyone knows the biggest factor for reaction time is refresh rate. having a 120hz crt is huge for competitive gaming as is setting your polling rate to at least 500mhz(1000 is ideal especially for the mx518). Playing on lcds is always frowned upon just because of the refresh rate issues(no lcd has a true 120hz refresh rate as far i know) and the response time issue is never a plus either....
 
mrkram said:
having a 120hz crt is huge for competitive gaming as is setting your polling rate to at least 500mhz(1000 is ideal especially for the mx518).
Click to expand...

Quick question: I have the MX518 and currently I have my polling at 500mhz. Since the MX518 is only a 125ms mouse, why would 1000mhz make any difference?

I've just recently gotten into all this polling rate/input rate/monitor lag stuff so I'm sort of a n00b.
 
skimmed through the thread and just so everyone knows the biggest factor for reaction time is refresh rate. having a 120hz crt is huge for competitive gaming as is setting your polling rate to at least 500mhz(1000 is ideal especially for the mx518). Playing on lcds is always frowned upon just because of the refresh rate issues(no lcd has a true 120hz refresh rate as far i know) and the response time issue is never a plus either....
Click to expand...

I guess some people really do buy based off the marketing on the packages....
 
Having a mouse with a better sensitivity will not help you at all. I hope that settles that argument.

If you want to move your aim one pixel to the right instead of 2 pixels, a higher sensitivity will do the trick, but during most games and most times you'll be turning a few degrees at least, therefore even using 100 or 200dpi will be just fine for most people. Personally I use 100 most of the time and I've done very well in CS (30% average accuracy, banned many times), CSS, DoD, DoDS, Quake 3, UT2004 and now I play TF2, UT3, ETQW and Crysis without any problems.

A better mouse will not make you better if you suck. If you're great, a better mouse will most likely not make you greater either. At best, it'll help a tiny, tiny but when moving your crosshairs just slightly to hit someone's head instead of their neck, for example.
 
Raven01 said:
hahaha


I'm far from a pro and I've been playing CoD4 and TF2 on an LCD with a ping of around 150 and I can consistantly get in the top 5. If you think playing on an LCD is holding you back you might want to examine your skills at the games you're playing.
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Depending on the class, high ping in TF2 can kinda help. It uses client-side hit detection for some weapons, so it doesn't really matter if you dodge or get behind cover, as long as the sniper's high ping shows him that you didn't - you can still get killed from around a corner 1s later or something. One of the most frustrating opponents I play against often is a guy that's honestly a good shot, but plays from Australia with a 250+ ping.
 
Big D. said:
Having a mouse with a better sensitivity will not help you at all. I hope that settles that argument.

If you want to move your aim one pixel to the right instead of 2 pixels, a higher sensitivity will do the trick, but during most games and most times you'll be turning a few degrees at least, therefore even using 100 or 200dpi will be just fine for most people. Personally I use 100 most of the time and I've done very well in CS (30% average accuracy, banned many times), CSS, DoD, DoDS, Quake 3, UT2004 and now I play TF2, UT3, ETQW and Crysis without any problems.

A better mouse will not make you better if you suck. If you're great, a better mouse will most likely not make you greater either. At best, it'll help a tiny, tiny but when moving your crosshairs just slightly to hit someone's head instead of their neck, for example.
Click to expand...

Having a shitty mouse with a bad optical sensor that always skips and doesn't track properly does make a difference. When I talk about having a quality mouse, I mean one that's built with quality components that will track well. Raw dpi(or cpi) ratings are fairly insignificant for the majority of gamers, although mouse companies would have you believe otherwise.
 
Raven01 said:
hahaha


I'm far from a pro and I've been playing CoD4 and TF2 on an LCD with a ping of around 150 and I can consistantly get in the top 5. If you think playing on an LCD is holding you back you might want to examine your skills at the games you're playing.
Click to expand...

Because you are so uber...

I have already stated that I am a major noob who mistook LCD input lag for a shitty mouse.

I have played CoD4 with three different mice. A shitty Microsoft mouse and two Razer mice. I could not precisely aim at a certain spot from far away 90% of the time with the Microsoft mouse. It had nothing to do about skill. If I wanted to aim at someones head from afar it would take me way to long to get the red dot directly on it. No matter how slow or carefully I moved the mouse, no matter how much time I would take. It would just skip over the spot I wanted to go to.

With the Razer there is hardly any effort involved. I go where I want to.

Hardware does make a difference. If it doesn't explain to me why I am able to make proper headshots now with my DeathAdder when I couldn't with my shitty Microsoft mouse? Did my skill increase that drastically between trips to BestBuy?
 
I do just as well on my Dell 2005fpw, which doesn't have the most low input lag.
 
TheGooch69 said:
Because you are so uber...

I have already stated that I am a major noob who mistook LCD input lag for a shitty mouse.

I have played CoD4 with three different mice. A shitty Microsoft mouse and two Razer mice. I could not precisely aim at a certain spot from far away 90% of the time with the Microsoft mouse. It had nothing to do about skill. If I wanted to aim at someones head from afar it would take me way to long to get the red dot directly on it. No matter how slow or carefully I moved the mouse, no matter how much time I would take. It would just skip over the spot I wanted to go to.

With the Razer there is hardly any effort involved. I go where I want to.

Hardware does make a difference. If it doesn't explain to me why I am able to make proper headshots now with my DeathAdder when I couldn't with my shitty Microsoft mouse? Did my skill increase that drastically between trips to BestBuy?
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Actually, that might also have had something to do with the settings you used with you Microsoft mouse. If you put the cursor speed to max in the mouse menu, it will skip a few pixels to simulate a faster cursor. That would be why you couldn't aim right.
In your menu for the Razer DA make sure you have windows pointer speed set to 5 which is neutral. Anything above that will mess with your aiming.
 
dr13zehn said:
Actually, that might also have had something to do with the settings you used with you Microsoft mouse. If you put the cursor speed to max in the mouse menu, it will skip a few pixels to simulate a faster cursor. That would be why you couldn't aim right.
In your menu for the Razer DA make sure you have windows pointer speed set to 5 which is neutral. Anything above that will mess with your aiming.
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The windows setting was the same with the Microsoft mouse as it is with the Razer now, 5.
 
vengence said:
I guess some people really do buy based off the marketing on the packages....
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or i know what i am talking about.... no reason for you to make an assumption that i make my hardware purchasing decisions based on advertisements rather then performance.also, all of the data i provided has been proven time and time again in the top tier quake tournament circuit. if ya have any questions ill be more then happy to point ya in the best direction for performance.
 
WhyYouLoveMe said:
Quick question: I have the MX518 and currently I have my polling at 500mhz. Since the MX518 is only a 125ms mouse, why would 1000mhz make any difference?

I've just recently gotten into all this polling rate/input rate/monitor lag stuff so I'm sort of a n00b.
Click to expand...

lets say the 518 natively refreshes the movement of the mouse 125 times every second. If you move the mouse very quick it will have trouble tracking that range of motion @ 125hz. Increasing it to 500 or 1000 provides the mouses sensor more "ticks" to track how it is moving. As long as your mouse has a good sensor it will benefit from overclocking the usb port to increase the polling rate. There is a great article on it on Esreality, anyone with any mouse questions should really check this article out.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1265679
 
mrkram said:
lets say the 518 natively refreshes the movement of the mouse 125 times every second. If you move the mouse very quick it will have trouble tracking that range of motion @ 125hz. Increasing it to 500 or 1000 provides the mouses sensor more "ticks" to track how it is moving. As long as your mouse has a good sensor it will benefit from overclocking the usb port to increase the polling rate. There is a great article on it on Esreality, anyone with any mouse questions should really check this article out.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1265679
Click to expand...

The DeathAdder is suppose to overclock to 1000mhz out of the box, but for some reason I can only get it to overclock to 500mhz. It is still a huge improvement over 125mhz. Good article.
 
mrkram said:
lets say the 518 natively refreshes the movement of the mouse 125 times every second. If you move the mouse very quick it will have trouble tracking that range of motion @ 125hz. Increasing it to 500 or 1000 provides the mouses sensor more "ticks" to track how it is moving. As long as your mouse has a good sensor it will benefit from overclocking the usb port to increase the polling rate. There is a great article on it on Esreality, anyone with any mouse questions should really check this article out.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1265679
Click to expand...

That's a nice round-up. I get a little confused between your o/c statement and that of the article's on the MX518: "Overclocking the USB port had no effect on the maximum response rate." :confused:
 
TheGooch69 said:
The DeathAdder is suppose to overclock to 1000mhz out of the box, but for some reason I can only get it to overclock to 500mhz. It is still a huge improvement over 125mhz. Good article.
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we're overclocking mice now? i must be really behind.
 
GMoney42392 said:
we're overclocking mice now? i must be really behind.
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haha, you're not overclocking the mice really, but the USB port and how fast it outputs a signal (at least that's what I was told).

Read the article that was posted above, it's an amazing insight into mice performance for games.
 
Raven01 said:
hahaha


I'm far from a pro and I've been playing CoD4 and TF2 on an LCD with a ping of around 150 and I can consistantly get in the top 5. If you think playing on an LCD is holding you back you might want to examine your skills at the games you're playing.
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Constantly getting in the top 5 is nothing to brag about.

In my glory days in UT, I would literally wipe the floor with people in the remaining "Top 5" positions.

In pub servers, I would have strings of 100-200 matches straight without so much as a 2nd place finish.

There would be instances where I would have a 1200 fph killing rate, and was banned from more than a handful of servers because they thought I was aimbotting/wallhacking/etc.

Sometimes in clan matches even, I had seen our opponents refuse to play unless I turned off my aimbot, or so they thought, even with CSHP running, they still didnt think I was legit.

That was on a 21" Sony Trinitron CRT at 120Hz.

I had become so good, so frighteningly good, that I never thought something such as an LCD could even bring me down.
But, when that Trinitron died, and I made the switch, IMMEDIATELY I noticed my skills going down the shitter because the LCD just couldn't keep up with my movements.

It was immediately noticable -- the very second I started playing, and I still remember that moment when I tried to do a 180 shock-combo from above on some poor unsuspecting player below me, but missed, by at least a good yard.... I knew something was wrong.

I tried it again, over and over, and not a single time could the LCD keep up with me.
I've since tried 4 different LCD screens at home, and 2 at work, with UT running, and not a single one was ever as responsive as my old CRT.

Well, sufficed to say, I retired from UT because of LCD technology -- which in retrospect was perhaps a blessing in disguise because I was investing 5-6 hours a day practicing UT, and it was sucking my life away.

But at any rate, anyone who says that LCDs dont make a difference either:
(a) have absolutely no idea what the hell they are talking about
(b) were never *THAT DAMN GOOD* to begin with so it wouldnt make a difference to THEM personally.

Being ranked top 10 once in the world in UT (even if it was for only a month) on the other hand..... I think I know what Im talking about.
 
What I also personally believe is that so many of the posters around here have grown up with LCD technology and the current crop of games, and as such, aren't even qualified to comment about CRT's and some of the twitch shooters such as UT99 and Quake 3 which almost demand gamers to have CRT's in order to be successful at.

But above that even, I seriously believe that most who still say otherwise, just were never *THAT* good, like pro-level, or semi-pro even, to begin with, so for them, it wouldn't probably matter anyways.

It would be akin to having Michael Jordan play basketball in a pair of sandals instead of basketball shoes, that's how it felt for me when I started playing UT on an LCD after having made the switch from my Trinitron.
I was still that same guy, but the moves that I wanted to make, the style with which I played, was hindered. I was slowed down. That fraction of a second that can make the difference between a frag and a death was what I counted on for years, and always had on my side with a CRT. The LCD took that away from me.
 
for professional gamers playing against each other on a LAN, yeah maybe a CRT makes a difference. Kinda like tour de france bikers trying to shave another 3/4 of an once off thier bike by using $1785.78 super titanium alloy pedals instead of $75 Aluminum pedals. For the vast majority of us, esp taking into the various factors that affect MP play on internet, it means absolutly dick. I've played a few quick games on my sony 900, before I sold it, and yes, it was a beautiful picture. I loved it. Just not enough to justify the forklift needed to move it or the wrecking ball remodeling needed to fit the damn thing in. Esp now as I type this on a westy 37", I'd never go back.
 
I've gamed Cal M with {STFU} in source before and was quite a good awper. I've been away from the game for a couple of years but recently started playing again, and running up K/D ratio's between 5:1 and 10:1 is quite common still. I was in cal with my dell 2005fpw and now I have a 30in dell.

When someome using a crt kicks my ass in source, then I'll listen. Hasn't happened yet though (excluding some i players, who were, btw on LCD's.) I'm going to be even more heretical and say I game using a G7 wireless mouse too. Once again, the proof is in the pudding.
 
computerpro3 said:
I've gamed Cal M with {STFU} in source before and was quite a good awper. I've been away from the game for a couple of years but recently started playing again, and running up K/D ratio's between 5:1 and 10:1 is quite common still. I was in cal with my dell 2005fpw and now I have a 30in dell.

When someome using a crt kicks my ass in source, then I'll listen. Hasn't happened yet though (excluding some i players, who were, btw on LCD's.) I'm going to be even more heretical and say I game using a G7 wireless mouse too. Once again, the proof is in the pudding.
Click to expand...

that doesn't prove anything. It just proves you're a good player and it's possible that using a CRT might make you an even better one.
 
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