DIY DC-DC UPS (was: PoE Splitting?)

[Zarathustra[H]]

Hey everyone,

I have what may (or may not) be an unusual problem.

POE coming in on 10GBaseT copper from upstream switch.

The Switch can be powered by POE, and can connect via 10gig, but not on the same port.

I need to somehow split off the power and send it to a Gigabit POE port to power the switch, while sending the data to the 10gig port. I'm fine wasting one gigabit port for no data and only power. I have way more of them than I need in this location.

Are there any products for this? or am I going to have to wire something myself?

Appreciate any recommendations.

 

[Nobu]

Dunno how well it works, but there's this: https://planetechusa.com/product/ipoe-176s-industrial-single-port-10gbps-802-3bt-poe-splitter/

Pretty sure the ones on amazon/etc won't support 10g speeds. Someone who works in datacenters might know a better source/product.

 

[pendragon1]

you can get splitters but i dont see any that are 10g. i guess that^^ might work but youd have to wire into the screw posts...

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Dunno how well it works, but there's this: https://planetechusa.com/product/ipoe-176s-industrial-single-port-10gbps-802-3bt-poe-splitter/

Pretty sure the ones on amazon/etc won't support 10g speeds. Someone who works in datacenters might know a better source/product.

Shnikies!

At that price I'll just run a power drop

Thanks for the link though.

 

[SamirD]

Yeah, 10Gb poe splitters will be pricey since that's a really niche use that will more than likely save a lot so hence cost a lot. To best honest, I was surprised one even existed for under $1k.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Yeah, 10Gb poe splitters will be pricey since that's a really niche use that will more than likely save a lot so hence cost a lot. To best honest, I was surprised one even existed for under $1k.

Yeah, only reason I even use POE for these switches is that it conveniently allows me to keep the network infrastructure on the big UPS in the server room.

I just want to have a 10gig uplink to the remote switch so that it is non-blocking. (Or at least less blocking)

 

[SamirD]

Yeah, only reason I even use POE for these switches is that it conveniently allows me to keep the network infrastructure on the big UPS in the server room.

I just want to have a 10gig uplink to the remote switch so that it is non-blocking. (Or at least less blocking)

A remote UPS is cheaper.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

A remote UPS is cheaper.

Yep, starting to realize that....

 

[SamirD]

Yep, starting to realize that....

The advantage is that is also doesn't create a load on your main UPS.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

The advantage is that is also doesn't create a load on your main UPS.

True, but we are only talking about at most 20-30 watts.

 

[SamirD]

True, but we are only talking about at most 20-30 watts.

So even a cheapee UPS will work great.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

So even a cheapee UPS will work great.

I was actually looking at some DC-DC UPS:es which are an interesting concept.

The switch will take 10-30v, but the AP needs 18-57v, so I'll need to be somewhere in the 18v to 30v range, and I need a combined 30-35w.

Most DC-DC UPS:es I can find have up to 2A on 12v but only up to 1A at 24v. So that won't cut it.

I have found one exception that might work, but it isn't marketed as a UPS, but rather a battery, but it appears to auto switch (using a Y cable) when the power goes out.

The 24V is unregulated though, so it will go as high as 28v when fully charged, but slowly drop voltage as it drains. This will probably be OK, depending on how the switch and AP behave when they go below the volt range. If they just shut down, that is fine, but if they start misbehaving that could be bad.

I could always insert a 24v buck/boost regulator in between the battery unit and the networking hardware, but now we are starting to get into ghetto homemade shit using cheap $5 boards from eBay...

I could get a less ghetto 24v golf cart buck boost regulator, but if I do, now I have enough power to pull up 12v to 24v, and I don't even need a 24v model....

It would be less efficient than operating at native 24v output, but not as inefficient as having the battery power converted to 127V 60hz AC, only to have the AC adapter take it down to 30v DC again...

Could be a cool little project, but...

Iight just be overcomplicating things and making it too ghetto...

Maybe a very basic line voltage UPS is the way to go instead. It would be less efficient, but maybe also less ghetto.

 

[Nobu]

Mini-box has a few options, although they don't list max watts output -- I guess you'd be limited more by the battery/wires you use and the power supply. 12-24V output, up to 5A. Wide input range but you'd probably want 24V.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Mini-box has a few options, although they don't list max watts output -- I guess you'd be limited more by the battery/wires you use and the power supply. 12-24V output, up to 5A. Wide input range but you'd probably want 24V.

Yeah, I looked at those.

Of their optinos, the only one that will work is the OG OpenUPS. It looks like a nice little board.

Onyl two problems with it.

1.) It's $119, and still needs batteries. For that price I can buy a decent low end line level UPS that has batteries...
2.) I have to wire all the batteries and this board myself. I'm going to need some sort of enclosure, unless I want something really ghetto with exposed wires and boards.

It would still be a pretty neat solution though. I'd probably want to get the batteries to as close to 24v as possible, and then let the integrated buck/boos arch do the rest. Lead acid would get big and heavy in a hurry, so I'd be leaning towards LifePO4. They are 3.2v each, so 8 of them in series would get me to 25.6v nominal, at 1.8 AH. Since I'd be pulling ~1.5 to 2A that should get me 30-60 minutes of runtime, which really isn't bad. I could wire in a second group of 8 serially connected batteries in parallel with the first, to double that runtime.

But then what do I do with all of these batteries? Someone must sell battery holders for LifePO4 batteries, and hopefully they exist in 8in series configurations. And now I'd need to mount them in a project box of some sort together with the board, or it is really ghetto.

I'd be spending the same kind of money as a pretty good low capacity line level UPS....

So, while the DIY approach really appeals to me, I have to wonder, is it worth it over just buying a ready to go product with customer support and warranty?

 

[SamirD]

I was actually looking at some DC-DC UPS:es which are an interesting concept.

The switch will take 10-30v, but the AP needs 18-57v, so I'll need to be somewhere in the 18v to 30v range, and I need a combined 30-35w.

Most DC-DC UPS:es I can find have up to 2A on 12v but only up to 1A at 24v. So that won't cut it.

I have found one exception that might work, but it isn't marketed as a UPS, but rather a battery, but it appears to auto switch (using a Y cable) when the power goes out.

The 24V is unregulated though, so it will go as high as 28v when fully charged, but slowly drop voltage as it drains. This will probably be OK, depending on how the switch and AP behave when they go below the volt range. If they just shut down, that is fine, but if they start misbehaving that could be bad.

I could always insert a 24v buck/boost regulator in between the battery unit and the networking hardware, but now we are starting to get into ghetto homemade shit using cheap $5 boards from eBay...

I could get a less ghetto 24v golf cart buck boost regulator, but if I do, now I have enough power to pull up 12v to 24v, and I don't even need a 24v model....

It would be less efficient than operating at native 24v output, but not as inefficient as having the battery power converted to 127V 60hz AC, only to have the AC adapter take it down to 30v DC again...

Could be a cool little project, but...

Iight just be overcomplicating things and making it too ghetto...

Maybe a very basic line voltage UPS is the way to go instead. It would be less efficient, but maybe also less ghetto.

Yeah, there's always a 'more efficient' way to do this since you only need DC, but you're right that the only DC-DC UPS units were basically 12v 2a ones--I actually have one by Belkin that I got years ago at goodwill and it's done a good job as even when everything else has died, the main router will stay on.

I think you're right going with just a basic UPS that does the job, but I would stay far, far away from anything that's amazon basics. I know one of the engineers involved with those products and let's just say you're playing with fire (maybe even literally).

I'm going to PM you some other ideas as I don't want to post it publicly here.

 

[SamirD]

So, while the DIY approach really appeals to me, I have to wonder, is it worth it over just buying a ready to go product with customer support and warranty?

Ime, if you're buying them at the right price--no. The last haul of UPS units I got were $77/ea shipped. They've lasted beyond their 3yr lifespan although getting battery failures now so have to look for deals on replacement batteries (I only go with the original batteries as they work best for long life ime).

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Having looked at the options, I am actually leaning back towards DIY again, just for shits and giggles, as no one seems to make pure sine wave small capacity units (that said, I'm not sure if sine wave really matters with AC adapters like this anyway, but I do like it)

I'm thinking:
- this OpenUPS Board from Mini-box.
- One of these cheapest 12V SLA batteries from BatteriesPlus.
- Some pigtails like these (not sure if right diameter plug, will have to measure)
- A $4 plastic ammo box from Harbor Freight to stick it all in.
- Using the AC adapter the stuff came with for power.

That 12v7AH battery should give me 84 WH or almost 2.5 hours of runtime if I max out the units at 35W, which I likely won't, and just replacing this basic $39 battery every few years should be way more cost effective long term than chasing fancy big capacity line level UPS batteries.

 

[SamirD]

Having looked at the options, I am actually leaning back towards DIY again, just for shits and giggles, as no one seems to make pure sine wave small capacity units (that said, I'm not sure if sine wave really matters with AC adapters like this anyway, but I do like it)

I'm thinking:
- this OpenUPS Board from Mini-box.
- One of these cheapest 12V SLA batteries from BatteriesPlus.
- Some pigtails like these (not sure if right diameter plug, will have to measure)
- A $4 plastic ammo box from Harbor Freight to stick it all in.
- Using the AC adapter the stuff came with for power.

That 12v7AH battery should give me 84 WH or almost 2.5 hours of runtime if I max out the units at 35W, which I likely won't, and just replacing this basic $39 battery every few years should be way more cost effective long term than chasing fancy big capacity line level UPS batteries.

You know...if you're going that way you could also use a car battery or a motorcycle battery and have a heck of a lot more runtime.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

You know...if you're going that way you could also use a car battery or a motorcycle battery and have a heck of a lot more runtime.

I could, but then I am going to run out of runtime upstream before this runs out For a different application I'm sure that makes sense though.

I'd rather keep it cheaper and (relatively) light weight.

 

[SamirD]

I could, but then I am going to run out of runtime upstream before this runs out For a different application I'm sure that makes sense though.

I'd rather keep it cheaper and (relatively) light weight.

I was just suggesting in the name of 'go big or go home hack it together'. Even a 'dead' car battery would probably work.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Alrighty, so I built the first one, and it went better than I had any right to expect.

This was definitely one of those projects that I thought might be fun, and I'd learn something from, but I had this sneaky suspicion real life usefulness would be a lot more limited than I had hoped, but this is a case where low expectations leads to happiness I guess?

I built a DC-DC ups based on the specs above, but with a few tweaks.

- this OpenUPS Board from Mini-box.
- 12AH 12v batteries were cheaper than I expected at Batteries Plus, so I went with one of those instead.
- These pigtails for power out..
- This panel mount power connector to connect the AC adapter
- A $4 plastic ammo box from Harbor Freight to stick it all in.
- Bought higher rated 24v AC adapter to make sure I had enough power.

Other parts I used were my old roll of solder, some solder & seal splicing heatshrink thingies (these things are great. Get some), an old kit of assorted heatshrink tubes I had kicking around, a roll of plastic mounting strap to anchor the battery to the side of the box so it doesn't crush the board, and an assorted kit of screws and nuts to and nuts to attach that strap and the board to the side of the box.

I'm terrible at soldering (I understand it in theory, but was never blessed with the steadiest hands, and as I have hit my 40's age is starting to catch up with my close range vision) and I also seem to have lost my little helping hands clamping stand, so it took several tries to solder it together, and there was also much cursing when it came to properly drilling the holes, and screwing everything down with my big hands in a little box, but once all was said and done, here is the end result:

The Mini-box site didn't specify that the cables it came with had F1 terminals, not F2 terminals, so I bought batteries with the wrong terminals. I was resigned to have to order new connectors and solder them on, but couldn't find them locally, so I thought I might have to delay the project again, while I wanted for the delivery, but it turns out the Battery Store has a bunch of adapters, and just gave them to me in a ziploc baggie, so major kudos to them. Great customer service.


And here it is all buttoned up:

Please pardon the messy project desk


It reminds me a little of some sort of IED/Satchel charge from a video game or something, so I won't be bringing them to an airport or public place any time soon

Configuration was a little tricky. Before hooking up the battery or external power for the first time you are supposed to plug it in via USB and do a first time configuration.

First I had to scramble to find an old Mini-Usb cable, which I am lucky I had, because I can't remember using one in like forever. No, not micro-usb, like we used to charge our android phones from, but the older, fatter-mini-usb. You know, this guy:

Then, once connected the board just did not like the USB connector on my desktop. It would be detected, and then drop out, and take the entire USB controller with it, requiring a reboot. Luckily my laptop did not have this problem, so I configured it from there.

You can either go down a list of every variable (and there are lots) or you can use a "battery wizard" that chooses some values based on Battery type (lead acid, Lithium Ion, or LifePo4), nominal battery voltage, battery capacity (milli-amp hours) and the number of batteries. I don't know enough about battery chemistry and voltage, so I decided to use the wizard, but before I did I poked through the individual settings and found that some made no sense at all, and were not set to their default.

For instance, there is a setting for slower charging if the unit is too hot, which was set to its default of 60C, which made sense. Then there was a setting for slower charging if the board was too cold as well, but this one was set to 125C instead of its default 5C. So I ran down the entire list and did a sanity check, resetting everything to default, except one setting, the output voltage. Their default output voltage is 12v, but I need 24v for my application.

Then I did the battery wizard. Their default settings are based on one lead acid battery, 12v, 7000mah. All I did was up the capacity to 12000mah, and then hit apply. This changed some strange things that don't make sense to me (like lowering max charging current from 1.7 amps to 1.05 amps) but I don't know enough about it to mess with it, so I decided to keep the settings the wizard put in place. Charging speed shouldn't be a big concern for my application. Reliability is more important.

So, I I tested the unit without hooking it up to anyhting. Charging was predictably slow, but everything appeared to work as expected. I measured ~24.3 volt at the output, both when plugged in, and unconnected.

I did notice that the unit shut down and became unresponsive after a few minutes of being disconnected from mains power. This concerned me, but I had done about as much testying as I could without hookling it up to something, so I decided to just go for it.

One of the two 24v plugs went straight into the back of my Mikrotik CRS326-24G-2S+RM switch. The other plug went into a Mikrotik PoE injector that came with one of their cAP ax WAPs I have bought and plan to upgrade to, but havent gotten around to it yet. It's just passive PoE, so I decided to use it to power my current Unifi UAP-AC-LR until I upgrade, as it just so happens to take 24v passive PoE. (the Mikrotik cAP ax takes 18-57v passive poe)

I used the Mikrotik adapter as it has an ac-adapter plug input. The Unifi PoE adapters integrate the AC adapter straight into the PoE injector, and thus require line voltage. (Mikrotik left, Unifi right)

I'm still knocking on wood (laminate) for saying this, but everything just worked on the first try with no issues at all.

And better yet, look at that predicted runtime when I pulled the plug:

Holy shit. 11 and a half hours???

My old APC Smart-UPS SUA 750 with two 12v batteries only estimated ~45-50 minutes of uptime with this load. (Now granted, those were only 7AH batteries, but still!) I guess there really is something to my theory of efficiency of staying with DC-DC instead of going Line -> 12v battery -> line -> ac adapter -> 24vdc....

Of course, as with all runtime estimations, you never know if they are true until you run them dry, and when you do you are wearing the battery, and will never repeat that runtime without replacing the battery, so this could be wrong, but I did leave it on battery for 20-25 minutes, and the voltage drop and remaining runtime prediction does at least track...

Part of this shocking result also came because I overestimated the power draw of my switch and WAP. I used their max wattage from the specs to estimate my needs, but it turns out that under light load, with less than maxed out SFP+ ports on the switch they use a lot less power.

So it looks like we are pulling ~1.047 amps at the battery (so thats at 12v, so any efficiency losses in pulling that voltage up to 24v and any power draw from the board is already figured in in that number)

Since the battery is rated at 12AH, if everything were perfect, I should expect to get 11 hours and 27 minutes out of it, so th eprediction is straight on the money, provided the battery meets specs.

So, I couldn't be happier with this project. I'm honestly amazed this turned out as well as it did.

I am going to build a second unit, but this one will be a little more complicated. I am going to stick it in my living room where I have the same switch and WAP, that both take 24v but also a Vonage box which takes 12v and a cordless phone that takes 6v. I plan on setting it up the same way with 24v out, but I have ordered some buck-boost adapters from eBay that will drop that 24v down to 12v and 6v respectively for the other two devices.

I'm even tempted to build a larger DC-DC UPS unit to run my router off of, and see if I can up that runtime as well. As cool as it is to have 11.5 hours of runtime on switch, WAP and VOIP, it is pretty useless if the router goes down after 45 minutes.

As luck would have it, way back when I first built my first custom pfSense router (which has since been upgraded a couple of times and migrated to OPNSense) I was in my "impressed with Mini-Box Pico-PSU's" phase, so it is running off of a 12v Pico PSU. It - of course - draws way more power than the switch and WAP, but maybe if I do something similar with a bigger battery and enclosure (maybe a car battery?) I can improve that uptime significantly. Of course, then I'd also need the switch to stay up longer, and it uses line power, but I can figure something out.

Anyway, my closing thoughts on all of this is, if I can build this amazing of a DC-DC UPS for my hardware this easily, why arent more people doing it, and why aren't the traditional UPS manufacturers offering these? With just th eone battery, and lower load on that battery, it ought to be amazing. Fewer battery replacements, making it cheaper and easier, and amazing uptimes.

Maybe they are afraid of losing replacement battery sales revenue?

 

[Nobu]

Well, among household DC devices, there isn't really a standard voltage (or polarity). Sure, there are more 5v/12v devices these days, but there are still a lot at 7, 9, 14, 15, 18...my laptop had some stupid high voltage, iirc.

Having one for each voltage would be stupid, but designing a single unit that the average end user wouldn't misconfigure somehow before plugging it in and frying their equipment would be an impressive feat.

But obviously, there is some merit in certain circumstances, so there are products/projects like the OpenUPS, for people with the know-how. The project was probably started for a situation very similar to yours, and they probably thought "hey, this is great! I'm sure people will pay for this." Because it works.

 

[SamirD]

Very cool results. And to answer your question as to why--probably cost and lack of demand. No one realizes they need 11hr uptime until they do.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Well, among household DC devices, there isn't really a standard voltage (or polarity). Sure, there are more 5v/12v devices these days, but there are still a lot at 7, 9, 14, 15, 18...my laptop had some stupid high voltage, iirc.

Having one for each voltage would be stupid, but designing a single unit that the average end user wouldn't misconfigure somehow before plugging it in and frying their equipment would be an impressive feat.

Have we as a society become dumber? Because they have been selling replacement "universal" AC adapters with adjustable voltages and a kit of power plug adapters since at least the 80's. Used to have them hanging in the power section at Radio Shack, and even Walmart and pharmacies!

You know, these:

A DC-DC UPS, with a couple of standard 5 & 12v outlets, and maybe a couple of adjustable voltage ports, sold by a trustworthy brand would be amazing.

There are a handful of Chinese made DC-DC UPS:es on Amazon, but they all seem to share the same innards, which are a little limiting, and none of the brand name UPS:es seem present.

But obviously, there is some merit in certain circumstances, so there are products/projects like the OpenUPS, for people with the know-how. The project was probably started for a situation very similar to yours, and they probably thought "hey, this is great! I'm sure people will pay for this." Because it works.

I thought they designed this for use with carputers and the like, to be able to take 12v from the car, and issue a safe shutdown to the carputer when the car turns off.

I could be wrong though.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

No one realizes they need 11hr uptime until they do.

Well, I certainly don't.

You have to balance the effort and expense of buying things against how real a risk it is.

How often am I actually likely to be without power for more than 45 minutes to an hour and a half? At least around here, the risk is pretty low. Once or twice in a lifetime? And how many batteries do you buy and lug into your house for that?

If this were a real concern, I'd be more worried about heating the house (if it is a cold winter day) so my pipes don't freeze, than keeping my network up, especially in our era of cellphones, with internet access that can be charged in our cars if worse comes to worse.

All that said, it is amazing that it actually works this well!

 

[SamirD]

Well, I certainly don't.

You have to balance the effort and expense of buying things against how real a risk it is.

How often am I actually likely to be without power for more than 45 minutes to an hour and a half? At least around here, the risk is pretty low. Once or twice in a lifetime? And how many batteries do you buy and lug into your house for that?

If this were a real concern, I'd be more worried about heating the house (if it is a cold winter day) so my pipes don't freeze, than keeping my network up, especially in our era of cellphones, with internet access that can be charged in our cars if worse comes to worse.

All that said, it is amazing that it actually works this well!

I used to not worry about uptimes until my mom couldn't breathe properly on her own without her phillips 'breathing machine' (as she called it). It had a built in battery pack good for about 2hrs, but in an extended outage it would be a risk, so I got 2x 1500va ups units for a total runtime of nearly 16hrs, so she could sleep like normal if need be. The thing I didn't account for was how quickly she would get uncomfortable without ac in the summer. So on two different occasions where the power was out for more than an hour, my parents went to my uncle's house. And this is a considerable undertaking as just getting her from the house to the car would take nearly 1 hour and exhaust her.

After my mom passed away I didn't think I would ever run into this type of an issue again. That is, until I ran into the completely idiotic 'scheduled' power outages in the bay area. At one point we visited a friend's house where they did not have power for 2 days. It's completely insane. So the next time costco had some of those solar driveway lights that last for 12hrs, I got a pack so in the event power is out that long, I can just bring these inside vs using candles. The Belkin dc-dc ups that I have on my main router does last 3hrs though--long after every other UPS has died.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

I used to not worry about uptimes until my mom couldn't breathe properly on her own without her phillips 'breathing machine' (as she called it). It had a built in battery pack good for about 2hrs, but in an extended outage it would be a risk, so I got 2x 1500va ups units for a total runtime of nearly 16hrs, so she could sleep like normal if need be. The thing I didn't account for was how quickly she would get uncomfortable without ac in the summer. So on two different occasions where the power was out for more than an hour, my parents went to my uncle's house. And this is a considerable undertaking as just getting her from the house to the car would take nearly 1 hour and exhaust her.

After my mom passed away I didn't think I would ever run into this type of an issue again. That is, until I ran into the completely idiotic 'scheduled' power outages in the bay area. At one point we visited a friend's house where they did not have power for 2 days. It's completely insane. So the next time costco had some of those solar driveway lights that last for 12hrs, I got a pack so in the event power is out that long, I can just bring these inside vs using candles. The Belkin dc-dc ups that I have on my main router does last 3hrs though--long after every other UPS has died.

Yeah, my philosophy has always been that my UPS:es are not there for extender runtime, but just to give me enough time to set up the generator.

I don't have a fancy permanently installed generator with a transfer switch, just a little portable one, but it is enough to handle a decent amount of household needs.

I've become lazy though, and haven't kept up with maintenance on it. I should really change the oil on it, and recharge the battery one of these days.

The only time I ever fired it up other than for testing, it took me about 20 minutes after the power went out to run to the garage, roll it into position, run the extension cords and get everything up and running. And then the power came on 3 minutes later

Maybe I am lucky to live where the grid is a little bit more reliable, but I still don't want to regret not having taken appropriate precautions.

 

[SamirD]

Yeah, my philosophy has always been that my UPS:es are not there for extender runtime, but just to give me enough time to set up the generator.

I don't have a fancy permanently installed generator with a transfer switch, just a little portable one, but it is enough to handle a decent amount of household needs.

I've become lazy though, and haven't kept up with maintenance on it. I should really change the oil on it, and recharge the battery one of these days.

The only time I ever fired it up other than for testing, it took me about 20 minutes after the power went out to run to the garage, roll it into position, run the extension cords and get everything up and running. And then the power came on 3 minutes later

Maybe I am lucky to live where the grid is a little bit more reliable, but I still don't want to regret not having taken appropriate precautions.

Because of the meters and grid designs in CA, there typically isn't a switch to shut off the connection to the grid so you have to get all that installed. And what's even more stupid is that if you have a solar energy system, it won't produce power without a live grid, so you can have full sun and no power just because the grid went down. There are ways to make a 'microgrid' but generally these require a $XXXXX battery setup and then the grid can feed the battery when its low.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

Because of the meters and grid designs in CA, there typically isn't a switch to shut off the connection to the grid so you have to get all that installed.

That's not how I use Generators.

When the power goes out, I walk out to my shed, roll the generator out and start it in the back yard. Then I grab my large quantity of extension cords (one of which is a big fat 30amp monster)

I run the cords in through windows (with weather stripping to keep things insulated) and just directly connect the things I want to keep going to the extension cords. We are usually talking fridge/freezer, a few lights, a special cable I have rigged up to run the gas furnace and hot water heaters, the sump pump, the server rack, a TV and a couple of laptops.

Depending on the time of year, I'll sometimes budget enough power for a small AC unit.

None of the electrical wiring in the walls of the house is used at all.

I mean, some day I'd love to have an automatically triggered backup generator wired in with a transfer switch, but that will have to wait until after the IPO if it ever happens

And what's even more stupid is that if you have a solar energy system, it won't produce power without a live grid, so you can have full sun and no power just because the grid went down. There are ways to make a 'microgrid' but generally these require a $XXXXX battery setup and then the grid can feed the battery when its low.

That depends on the solar system. There are ones that will sync to the grid sine wave and keep going once the grid goes out, but they cost a little bit more. Most people don't know enough about solar panels when they get theirs installed, and opt for the cheapest alternative, which is usually not the best.

My house doesn't lend itself to solar panels (Surrounded by huge trees and almost constantly in the shade) but if it did, I know exactly the kind of system I would get. (And I would NEVER get one of those leased systems. They are almost always a bad deal and a scam)

 

[Darunion]

I really enjoy when people create a solution to their problem. Good work!!

 

[SamirD]

That's not how I use Generators.

When the power goes out, I walk out to my shed, roll the generator out and start it in the back yard. Then I grab my large quantity of extension cords (one of which is a big fat 30amp monster)

I run the cords in through windows (with weather stripping to keep things insulated) and just directly connect the things I want to keep going to the extension cords. We are usually talking fridge/freezer, a few lights, a special cable I have rigged up to run the gas furnace and hot water heaters, the sump pump, the server rack, a TV and a couple of laptops.

Depending on the time of year, I'll sometimes budget enough power for a small AC unit.

None of the electrical wiring in the walls of the house is used at all.

I mean, some day I'd love to have an automatically triggered backup generator wired in with a transfer switch, but that will have to wait until after the IPO if it ever happens



That depends on the solar system. There are ones that will sync to the grid sine wave and keep going once the grid goes out, but they cost a little bit more. Most people don't know enough about solar panels when they get theirs installed, and opt for the cheapest alternative, which is usually not the best.

My house doesn't lend itself to solar panels (Surrounded by huge trees and almost constantly in the shade) but if it did, I know exactly the kind of system I would get. (And I would NEVER get one of those leased systems. They are almost always a bad deal and a scam)

I like your manual transfer switch. That's how I would use a generator, and I would probably just hook it up to the UPSes that the important loads are plugged into, although they probably would keep chirping if the power is stepped sine wave.

We have a solar energy system on the place in CA. It was installed by the previous owner and is an Enphase system, so pretty good one. It just seems the utilities lobbied manufacturers to make it so their systems would stop generating power (and sending it to the grid) while the grid was out for safety reasons (like the same reason a transfer switch is needed for a built-in generator). But what's funny is that the solar energy systems could have just switched into 'micro grid' mode where they would simply consume all the power they are generating and not send any to the grid until it sees the grid alive--but this would hurt utilities so they made sure that got banned. So while technically micro gridding on outages is possible, it is basically designed out of every major manufacturer's system (Enphase and Tesla are two of the biggest and neither one can do this) unless there is a $10k+ battery installed. It's a real FU by the utility companies who basically want you to send your power to them for free so they can send it back out and charge for it.

Yeah and lease and other scams are super common for solar energy systems. Not to mention nightmares from installation. Our neighbor across the street had $14k of damage inside their home because of a leak in the roof caused by a solar energy system install. Even after the installers came out 5 different times to fix the leak, it was still there. Finally, they had to get a whole new roof and the entire inside on one wall was gutted and re-done and they had to redo all their flooring. It was a nightmare. And their system is sized too small as they use like 3x the power we do and yet their system generates about the same amount as ours.