Dolby Digital in Games

Dolby Digital produces inferior game audio than any of the other computer-based API's. The only reason people want it is out of ignorance.
 
MadSkills said:
It is not a part of DD , but the rest you said is not true. Go to www.videophile.info for the explanation, but part of the perceived quality difference is due to dialnorm compensation. The graphs also show that DTS does not recreate the waveform objectively better than DD. The detailed data also shows that there is not objectively better bass response. this is just one DVD, but if the improvement was inherent to the codec itself, it'd probably evident as this is a standout title.

Also, there are two bitrates for DTS, and the lower end is not much higher quality than the common DD bitrates.

HOWEVER, it's not the codec, it's how it is used. Many DTS mixes have smoother bass and more directional surrounds. Perhaps the studios do this to create the impression that DTS is worth paying more for.

The moral of the story: pick the codec that sounds best to you, whether it be DD or DTS.
Click to expand...

Respectfully I disagree. I have some professional background in audio and recording, plus I've been building home theatre systems since laser disc and into hi-fi audio since a kid. Now I'm not some industry expert, but I do have a working and faily deep understanding of the technology.

It does depend on how well the mix was done...as in anything audio. But looking at it from a simple point of fidelity and ability for the engineer to make the best sounding track, DTS wins hands down. Just the bitrate alone should make that clear. I've read that videophile article before and I don't really agree with it. Their testing is flawed. Plus the proof is in the pudding. Most people who listen to a movie on a properly set up system and compare DD to DTS chose DTS.

A really great example for comparing is last year's Led Zeppelin DVD. Both the DD and DTS tracks have been meticulously engineered and both are stellar. However, the DTS just pulls away BIG TIME. Another good comparison are the 2 LOTR special ed's. Conversely the sound for SW Episode II is stellar with DD, but unfortunately we don't have a DTS to compare. However we can see just what you can really do with DD.

I'm not saying DD is crap, but it just isn't as robust as DTS. The engineer has a lot more to work with in DTS and when those extra features are taken full advantage of the difference becomes glarringly obvious. The thing is, not all the studios who do DTS use an engineer that pushes the track to actually use those extra capabilities of DTS. Many times, unfortunately, they basically port the DD track to DTS and don't massage it beyond that.
 
Einsig:

I appreciate your opinion. As i said, I usually chooee the DTS mix b/c the imaging and surround effect is often better, and the bass smoother!

However, what "extra features" are available through DTS encoding? I'd be interested to know.
 
MadSkills said:
Einsig:
However, what "extra features" are available through DTS encoding? I'd be interested to know.
Click to expand...

When I say "extra features" I'm merely referring to the better fidelity and data options the sound engineer has to work with when doing the track.
 
Auric said:
You must have a SoundStorm-equipped nForce2 board to play a game in Dolby Digital for one very simple reason: games are interactive, and thus cannot be pre-encoded. DVD movies are pre-encoded because when the action hero bursts through a window behind you, it's going to be behind you every single time you watch the movie. In a game, the developers can't predict where you'll be when an enemy fires a rocket at you, so your PC has to wait until after the rocket is fired to encode it into Dolby Digital. The game can't give your PC that ability, as software-based DD encoding has only recently appeared, and it's very CPU-intensive. The bandwidth between the CPU and the Southbridge on a nForce2 motherboard is enough that Dolby Digital encoding can be done in realtime with a delay short enough to not be noticeable.

So why does the game feature the Dolby Digital logo? Marketing. In the case of Far Cry (where the Dolby Digital option is actually selectable), it adjusts the sound settings to perform better with Soundstorm (which supports 64 hardware-accelerated channels as opposed to the 32 of the Audigy line). I believe Dolby Laboratories has a certification program that outlines certain standards a game must meet to feature the DD logo, but they don't appear to be very stringent.

Of course, DD is not inherently better than analog 5.1 (as has already been pointed out). In fact, the sound quality is technically worse since the signal is compressed. However, the advantages of Dolby Digital become apparent when you hook up home theater speakers to your PC. Most PC sound cards (particularly those made by Creative) have absolutely horrendous bass management. It's so bad, it doesn't even provide enough power to keep my subwoofer from going into standby mode. The average user doesn't notice this because speakers that are made for the PC have bass management systems built into them (either in the subwoofer itself or in the decoder box). Home theater speakers do not, as they rely on a receiver to handle that. Yet only the most expensive top-of-the-line receivers are capable of doing bass management on 5.1 analog inputs (which were made for DVD-Audio and SACD, formats that have a dedicated LFE channel). With a Dolby Digital signal, not only do you have the dedicated LFE channel, but your receiver can apply its own bass management because the signal is digital.
Click to expand...


You state that no PC game has ever been encoded in Dolby Digital. That is absolutely *untrue*.

The first such game (in fact, it was notable for little else) was Wing Commander: Prophecy (the fourth game of the Wing Commander series, the first game that *didn't* feature the Kilrathi as chief villain, and an early game that used video cutscenes (which is why it was one of the first multi-CD games)).

I remember *buying* this monster (an unheard-of five CDs) because I was enthralled by the storyline, and I played the game to its primary conclusion (though it took me three months to do). Because of the fact that it *was* DD-encoded (according to the manual, the Prima Official Strategy Guide which I bought with the game, and the publisher's own release notes), I used Dolby Digital as the *primary* audio setting with the game after I bought my SB Live! 5.1 (as opposed to straight EAX from the Sound Blaster 32 PNP I had previously).

My ears were *very* pleasantly pleased by the DD fidelity (primarily in the cutscenes, which were actually *filmed* using live actors, among them none other than Mark Hamill).
The presence of DD made WC: Prophecy another rarity: it actually sounded *better* in DD than it did in EAX, even on Creative's 5.1 series sound cards (one flaw in early versions of EAX was that it did *not* create soundfields correctly in 5.1 implementations). (Yes, Prophecy *did* support hardware EAX as well.)

At the time (1997) the two big names in PC audio were Creative and Aureal (and their respective EAX and A3D hardware encoding specifications for games). Creative was the first to support Dolby Digital decoding *without* additional hardware (in the original Sound Blaster Live! 5.1 series); however, *very* few PC games supported Dolby Digital (in fact, WC: Prophecy was the first, and it would be quite a few years before another PC game did).

While EAX is far more prevalent in PC gaming than Dolby Digital, it need not be an either/or proposition (Prophecy proved that!) any more than Dolby Digital or DTS support in movie theaters (or *home theaters* for that matter).

As in other non-movie sources of Dolby Digital, one of the most overlooked sources is (don't laugh) your CD collection (especially if you own any of the Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab's Masterworks series).

There are two givens to *any* recording in MFSL's Masterworks series:

1. They are true DDD compact discs.
2. They are encoded in Dolby Digital AC-3 format. (These were, in fact, the first generally-available audio CDs encoded this way.)
 
Great info, PGHammer.

But isn't it true that Dolby does not provide occlusion and reverberation type effects that EAX does? Also, you were listening to an older version of EAX and it may be improved since then. it also depends on the implementation within the game, if they are only using it for echo or ambiance like in an RPG, perhaps it will not be as good as Dolby.

I'd be interested to know how the latest EAX codecs on the latest audigy 2 ZX card sounds compared to DD.

What more current games support DD so I can try it?
 
I currently have my Audigy 2 hooked up to Creative Megaworks 510D speakers. While this allows me to play games in 5.1, I am not happy with Creative's software.

Other than Soundstorm, what 5.1 gaming options exist?

Update: I've switch to the KX Project drivers. If you're not happy with Creative's drivers, I highly recommend these instead.
 
Comparing DD to EAX is ludacris. EAX is a type of effects processing and DD is an encoding scheme- if Creative licensed DICE, we could have them working in unison. DD in games, which I don't completely understand, is like having your sound in MP3 except it's in DD. Not a big deal in my book, I'd rather have excellent EAX4 implementations with EAX2 backups. DD does not provide the clarity that an Audigy 2 ZS or M-Audio Revolution can provide over analog to a real reciever.
 
So what i am gathering from all of this:

If i were to go out and buy that 500 dollar Denon 1804 receiver with anolog multi channel inputs and from my motherboard with the three analog outputs (left/right , center/sub , rearleft/rearright), have three cords goind from my motherboard to the correct ports on the back of the receiver, i would be getting some sort of EAX sound? Surround sound? sounds like a plan to me if true.
 
Seraphim974 said:
So what i am gathering from all of this:

If i were to go out and buy that 500 dollar Denon 1804 receiver with anolog multi channel inputs and from my motherboard with the three analog outputs (left/right , center/sub , rearleft/rearright), have three cords goind from my motherboard to the correct ports on the back of the receiver, i would be getting some sort of EAX sound? Surround sound? sounds like a plan to me if true.
Click to expand...
You'll get whatever you send out. If you send out surround sound then you will get surround sound. Damn this is an old thread.
 
jpmkm said:
You'll get whatever you send out. If you send out surround sound then you will get surround sound. Damn this is an old thread.
Click to expand...

Exactly. The same if your source was an Audigy 2 ZS- you could get EAX4, on 5.1/6.1 outputs through analog, no problem.
 
but i, on a Pioneer 400watt dcs303 home cinema dvd/dolby digital/dts receiver with only a TOSLINK in would not get 5.1 digital audio from any creative labs soundcard.

thats the crux of this.

Many people have dolby digital/dts decoders/receivers in their home cinema setups that are great, and i see no reason why creative seem to have gone out of their way to avoid integration with this technology.

pez
 
i see no reason why creative seem to have gone out of their way to avoid integration with this technology.
Click to expand...

I agree. I've heard people say there simply isn't enough bandwidth with the current PCI bus to allow that kind of encoding. A few posts up some say PCI-E should have more than enough bandwidth. Lets hope!
 
They go out of their way? It costs money to redesign a card, put additional parts on the card, and pay licensing fees. You call that going out of their way to avoid putting a dobly digital encoder on a sound card? It's not just creative, either. Have you seen any other card with dolby digital encoding(other than rumors)? Dolby digital isn't all that special. All you get is a slight loss of quality due to compression. I don't understand what the big deal is with encoding something, sending it over a cable, and decoding it a few feet away. I also don't understand what the bandwidth of the pci bus has to do with this. All dolby digital encoding will do is encode the audio that is already there. The encoding is done on the sound card, so where does the pci bus come into play?
 
jpmkm said:
They go out of their way? It costs money to redesign a card, put additional parts on the card, and pay licensing fees. You call that going out of their way to avoid putting a dobly digital encoder on a sound card? It's not just creative, either. Have you seen any other card with dolby digital encoding(other than rumors)? Dolby digital isn't all that special. All you get is a slight loss of quality due to compression. I don't understand what the big deal is with encoding something, sending it over a cable, and decoding it a few feet away. I also don't understand what the bandwidth of the pci bus has to do with this. All dolby digital encoding will do is encode the audio that is already there. The encoding is done on the sound card, so where does the pci bus come into play?
Click to expand...

as ive already posted, the issue here is a lack of compatible outputs between pc sound solutions and ubiquitous home cinema sound solutions.

pez
 
alex pez said:
as ive already posted, the issue here is a lack of compatible outputs between pc sound solutions and ubiquitous home cinema sound solutions.

pez
Click to expand...
Many recievers have a six channel discrete input. Even my cheap kenwood has this feature. Should sound card manufactures add a feature to soundcards that very few people will take advantage of or should those few people just get a receiver that will work with just about every sound card?
 
now that intel has stuck HDA on the 925 chipsets with dolby digital live its not something that in the future will cause many problems, its an ease of use thing more than anything else.

I can appreciate that its an added expense to include dde onto the cards, but you dont think that a card as heavily laden with features as the Audigy should offer a digital out that most people could very easily use?

why connect several analogue leads when you can connect 1 digital lead?

"Should sound card manufactures add a feature to soundcards that very few people will take advantage of or should those few people just get a receiver that will work with just about every sound card?"

when even my PS2 can output a multichannel digital output via a TOSLINK to my receiver, i question that logic. If it was there, people would use it, and Creative wouldnt sell as many PC speaker solutions.

pez
 
Hmm, wouldn't be nice if say, Via integrated a DTS 6.1 encoder into their next generation of Envy chips? Maybe they could even put some hardware processing in there- with those two things they could dethrone Creative in a heartbeat, on regular PCI bus even.
 
as for bandwidth affecting a cards ability to do DDE, i found this. how accurate it is, i dont know.

"For the most part, VIA and Creative Labs were the only two competitors of the audio market. The question is why hasn’t NVIDIA chimed in. Soundstorm was a great onboard solution that gamers grew to love. While the analog output was sub par, due to uncontrollable circumstances, the Dolby Digital Encoding worked very well and had low CPU utilization. NVIDIA did audio correctly with Soundstorm. Now why haven’t they released an AIB solution? At first the official response was the PCI bus lacked the necessary bandwidth for DDE, requiring roughly 133MB/s or so to function. Now PCI Express x1 is available with an effective 500MB/s per slot, what’s the excuse now? There is no market for it? I’m sure the company that released the FX5800 shouldn’t be making such excuses. Soundstorm is an awesome solution that worked very well on nForce 2, and much better on nForce 1 motherboards, it is about damn time we get a stand alone solution. Hell, ditch the DDE, call it Soundstorm Lite and throw in some better DAC’s on and it would most likely still sell. You have the ex-Aureal engineers; now put them to good use! "
 
That still doesn't make sense, though. Soundcards can already output six audio channels at a time. Even cheap $30 soundcards can do 5.1 channel output. If the DD encoder is on the soundcard, can't it take the six audio channels that are already on the soundcard and encode those to DD? Unless the DD encoding is done on the cpu and then the data stream is pushed over the pci bus then I don't understand where this extra bandwidth requirement comes from. Do you have any other sources stating that dolby digital encoding requires too much bandwidth to be used on a pci bus? Where did you find that excerpt you posted?

edit: heh, while search for stuff on google I came across this thread. :)
 
this is where i found that bit http://www.sudhian.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=565&pid=2148

arent you risking a loss of quality anyway running several analogue audio leads into a dolby digital/dts receiver?

from what i can gather external dolby digital/dts receivers then take these analogue inputs and encode them anyways, then process them, then decodes them, then outputs them to the relevant amps-speakers? (im still learning about pc and surround sound! - its far muddier than pc video! :eek: )

surely theres a way of just keeping it digital all the way from the pc to an external 5.1 home cinema receiver. i cant believe its a cost thing thats keeping dde and dtse from sound cards when ps2s and xboxs can do it.

pez
 
alex pez said:
this is where i found that bit http://www.sudhian.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=565&pid=2148

arent you risking a loss of quality anyway running several analogue audio leads into a dolby digital/dts receiver?

from what i can gather external dolby digital/dts receivers then take these analogue inputs and encode them anyways, then process them, then decodes them, then outputs them to the relevant amps-speakers? (im still learning about pc and surround sound! - its far muddier than pc video! :eek: )

surely theres a way of just keeping it digital all the way from the pc to an external 5.1 home cinema receiver. i cant believe its a cost thing thats keeping dde and dtse from sound cards when ps2s and xboxs can do it.

pez
Click to expand...


You would be gaining sound quality by using the analog outputs; at least on an Audio 2 ZS or Revolution. DD and DTS ARE compression algorithms.
 
I am learning so much from this thread. I have the same problem as many. I have a nice reciever but no way to go straight from the audigy 2 to my reciever, and get surround sound.
 
i just read this whole thread thinking to get a clear cut answer and i am still confused. the asus k8v se deluxe mobo i received has a spdif out on it, so could i use that connection and hook it up to a receiver to get surround sound?? that's all i care about, just hearing something in a game from the back right speaker if it is coming in that direction so i can blast them away. i just bought an audigy 2 platinum that has many optical outputs via the 5.25 box, that i could to hook up to my receiver, but why waste money on the audigy 2 platinum if the spdif on my mobo will achieve the same goal... or will it? i work at best buy in the computer dept and i don't know much digital sound and stuff, so i don't really care if it's dolby digital. just as long as i get positional hearing through my speakers hooked up to my receiver :) or i could just get a cheap set of logitech z-640's, but i would lose the sound quality from speakers hook up to my receiver...ugh getting a headache trying to determine what to do for my new computer
 
PsYStuMmY said:
i just read this whole thread thinking to get a clear cut answer and i am still confused. the asus k8v se deluxe mobo i received has a spdif out on it, so could i use that connection and hook it up to a receiver to get surround sound?? that's all i care about, just hearing something in a game from the back right speaker if it is coming in that direction so i can blast them away. i just bought an audigy 2 platinum that has many optical outputs via the 5.25 box, that i could to hook up to my receiver, but why waste money on the audigy 2 platinum if the spdif on my mobo will achieve the same goal... or will it? i work at best buy in the computer dept and i don't know much digital sound and stuff, so i don't really care if it's dolby digital. just as long as i get positional hearing through my speakers hooked up to my receiver :) or i could just get a cheap set of logitech z-640's, but i would lose the sound quality from speakers hook up to my receiver...ugh getting a headache trying to determine what to do for my new computer
Click to expand...

The best you can get out of your digital outs(motherboard and audigy 2) is stereo pcm.
 
to Psystummy

No, the SPDIF from motherboard to your receiver would not give you surround sound which is what people often wish that it would do but it simply cannot.(unless your motherboard has SoundStorm). Any good standalone card (or even a good motherboard with good onboard sound) will have 3 different jacks which send out analog signals to your computer speakers (or receiver if your receiver is quality enough to have multi-channel inputs). That way you will get surround sound in games. That it what i now use. My motherboard has the analog outputs on the back and i have three cables (1/8th inch to 2 RCA) going from my motherboard's output to the multi-channel input on the back of my Denon receiver.

BTW: Best Buy has not hired me for any position after three seperate interviews during which they were hiring...
 
ive asked this in another thread but its just as pertinant here.

If a game could do the dde in the processor (and judging by what i now know about the ps2 its something that can be done on pretty old hardware), could the dd 5.1 audio be routed out of the SPDIF on non DDE sound cards?

pez
 
alex pez said:
ive asked this in another thread but its just as pertinant here.

If a game could do the dde in the processor (and judging by what i now know about the ps2 its something that can be done on pretty old hardware), could the dd 5.1 audio be routed out of the SPDIF on non DDE sound cards?

pez
Click to expand...
As I mentioned in that other thread, dolby digital encoding can certainly be done in software, but it is so computationally intensive that it would be quite pointless, especially considering how computationally intensive the games that would use the dd encoding are. Also in the other thread I mentioned that the dolby digital content on the playstation 2 is all preencoded and there is no on-the-fly dolby digital encoding done in the playstation 2.
 
so pretty much what you are telling me even the Audigy 2 platinum's optical and coaxial digital inputs and outputs are pretty much worthless in terms of me wanting my surround sound positioning in games? oh yeah and of course the motherboard coaxial won't either unless i get three separate 1/8th inch miniplugs to 2 rca, which will work for either onboard sound or a regular audigy 2 zs. i thought rca's don't give you surround sound. (i'm thinking in terms of home theater equipment), so if that is the case how will me give surround sound. i thought only optical and coaxial digital can do this task. by the way is it even worth getting an audigy 2 zs compared to the 5.1 onboard sound that the asus k8v se deluxe offers? i know audigy 2 zs is supposed to be good card but could the onboard sound be that bad. the best buy i work at needs computer sales and techs if you live in oklahoma, come on down.


Seraphim974 said:
to Psystummy

No, the SPDIF from motherboard to your receiver would not give you surround sound which is what people often wish that it would do but it simply cannot.(unless your motherboard has SoundStorm). Any good standalone card (or even a good motherboard with good onboard sound) will have 3 different jacks which send out analog signals to your computer speakers (or receiver if your receiver is quality enough to have multi-channel inputs). That way you will get surround sound in games. That it what i now use. My motherboard has the analog outputs on the back and i have three cables (1/8th inch to 2 RCA) going from my motherboard's output to the multi-channel input on the back of my Denon receiver.
Click to expand...
Seraphim974 said:
BTW: Best Buy has not hired me for any position after three seperate interviews during which they were hiring...
Click to expand...


what is stereo pcm? as you can probably tell my knowledge in home theater and sound equipment is pretty limited

"The best you can get out of your digital outs(motherboard and audigy 2) is stereo pcm."​
 
An rca connector is just that - a connector. It means nothing without a context. Hell, you can even use rca connectors for power. Anyway, stereo pcm data is just stereo digital sound without any other encoding. You can get surround sound from a soundcard to a receiver by taking the six discrete analog channels out of your soundcard and putting them into your receiver(if the receiver is adequately equipped). This will give you surround sound since you have six channels going to your receiver.
 
Remember, a Creative soundcard to Creative speakers will get you surround sound in games, digitally. I use an Audigy 2 with Megaworks 510D speakers. Creative's software sucks, so I use drivers from KX Project instead. Highly recommended.
 
hi,

I have Sigmatel STAC 9750 integrated sound card in my laptop. the only available outputs are spdif. From reading this whole thread it seems i will not be having 5.1 in my games like some others w/ this current setup.

My other option now is to purchase another card, I'm considering the Audigy 2NX. I see it has spdif/rear/front/center outs. Which is good except for one thing. I have a Bose theatre system and the satelite speakers require being hooked upto the bass module, its some sort of propritary thing it seems.

Does anyone have experience w/ bose speakers? I would very much like to purchase a receiver to go w/ the center/front/rear outs of this new Sound card, though i'm unsure i can plug in the speakers individually to it(the receiver).

Now heres another thought about avoiding purchasing a receiver. The bose receiver is not a true one, but it does allow external rca cables for Aux/Tape/Video/etc. It has only 2 slots for each. Left speaker and Right speaker(even tho its a 6 speaker system*shrug*). So i'm wondering if its possible to maintain surround sound using the Center/Front/Rear out from this new Audigy2NX to the Left and Right channel that this Bose system allows. Would the spdif also play a part in this, i could use that as well if so(though i'm thinking they are separate entities, analog/digital)?

I have no problem purchasing new PC/Audio hardware(Audigy2NX/receiver), but I must use these bose speakers..somehow.

any ideas?

-dre
 
everyone wants a card with DD encoding, but nobody makes one. why?? :mad:
 
bjornb17 said:
everyone wants a card with DD encoding, but nobody makes one. why?? :mad:
Click to expand...
Probably because very few people will use it, or have the decoding hardware to use it.
 
bjornb17 said:
everyone wants a card with DD encoding, but nobody makes one. why?? :mad:
Click to expand...
I'd say more like a few people on this particular site. It is a nice market, since these are the people who are willing to spend the big bucks for something like this, but I just don't think the market is big enough. That being said, I do think some company will start making half-assed dolby digital cards just to appease people, but it will be shitty and comletely not worth it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top