DoubleSight DS-263N - 26"

Thanks for the great review toastyX, I really appreciate it.

I don't know if you, or anybody else that currently has one of these puppies has any experience with the dell 2707 or the sammy 275t, but if you do then would you recommend this over either of those for fairly color critical work? (I'm an arch student and I have to print posters) Is this a better monitor?
 
toastyx, when the screen is completely black (or u are viewing a completely black image do yous ee lines going across the screen?????? I noticed this with my planar and just wondering if its normal? were did you order it from?
 
andersoj said:
Thanks for the great review toastyX, I really appreciate it.

I don't know if you, or anybody else that currently has one of these puppies has any experience with the dell 2707 or the sammy 275t, but if you do then would you recommend this over either of those for fairly color critical work? (I'm an arch student and I have to print posters) Is this a better monitor?
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I don't recommend S-PVA panels for color-critical work because the viewing angles mess with the colors even when you're sitting right in front of the monitor. The only advantage those monitors would have is contrast. The contrast is kind of poor on the Planar and DoubleSight monitors, but that only affects black depth.



redlinez33 said:
toastyx, when the screen is completely black (or u are viewing a completely black image do yous ee lines going across the screen?????? I noticed this with my planar and just wondering if its normal? were did you order it from?
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Do you mean like faint brushed metal kind of lines? If so, that's normal. I've seen that on every IPS panel.

I got mine from buy.com.
 
Buy.com has a great price on these. 675.00 shipped using Google check out. I picked up mine from the Egg as I got 6 months, no payments with an Egg Preferred account.

And Toasty, thanks for reinforcing my decision to pick one of these up. I read all your reviews on the Planar and had a hunch that these were the exact same thing. Really looking forward to seeing this in person. Now I just have to wait until Wednesday.... :(
 
I just did a lag test. I used a VGA splitter to make sure both monitors were getting the same signal at the same time.

Here are the results:
ds-nolag.jpg


Like the Planar, it's only slightly behind the CRT in drawing the current frame, and that's with scaling, which means it can scale lower resolutions without significant lag.
 
How is doublesight as a company? Return policy? Good about returns?? Very much considering returning my planar for this. Just the return policy isnt the greatest from buy.com, so..
 
any other pics of the monitor itself, having a hard time picturing what this think looks like sitting on a desk...

does the bezel rotate?
 
redlinez33 said:
How is doublesight as a company? Return policy? Good about returns?? Very much considering returning my planar for this. Just the return policy isnt the greatest from buy.com, so..
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The only warranty I can find on their website says 1 year. Dead pixel policy is 6 pixels. However, this monitor isn't even listed on the site, so who knows if that applies.

Planar's warranty is for 3 years and includes 2-day advanced replacement. Dead pixel policy is 3 pixels.

I don't have to ask myself if the better warranty is worth $200 because I already own the Planar. :)
 
Toasty, care to inform us what the warranty sheet that came with the monitor says???
 
EW27 said:
The only warranty I can find on their website says 1 year. Dead pixel policy is 6 pixels. However, this monitor isn't even listed on the site, so who knows if that applies.

Planar's warranty is for 3 years and includes 2-day advanced replacement. Dead pixel policy is 3 pixels.

I don't have to ask myself if the better warranty is worth $200 because I already own the Planar. :)
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Well according to the buy.com product page it has a 3 year parts and labor warranty. This monitor sounds like a great deal.
 
Looks like an awesome monitor. Hopefully IPS screens will keep decreasing in price, like this one slightly has compared to the NEC, etc.
 
ToastyX said:
It works in everything except games, but there might be ways to make it work in games. Also, only color-managed programs can do gamut conversions, so everything outside of color-managed programs will appear a little oversaturated.
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This is what I don't understand. If it is calibrated, why still over saturated? Can't you calibrate against sRGB?

Doesn't calibration look at a bunch of RGB points like 235, 20, 20 and then check that the output color maps to the expected value . If not the profile adjusts until it does(say your need to remap to 180, 18,18 because of the wider gamut). Do this for a wide variety of points and you map the input to the output properly compensating for monitor oddities (even gamut differences). I can see why you can't map a wide gamut to a narrow gamut monitor with success but doing the opposite should be possible.

Otherwise it seems like the increasing number of wide gamut monitors are mainly just a PITA for PC users, even with calibration.

Why doesn't anyone else do a cheaper (than NEC 2490) 24" IPS monitor like these, it seems the normal gamut panel would make it a lot less problematic.

I have next to Nil color aware apps and if it is over saturated in everything else, a wide gamut monitor is not a benefit, it is a detriment.
 
Well, this is interesting. I was about to buy the Planar PX2611W, but to ~$200 less, this is looking very appealing. I just need to find a good place to purchase it in case of dead pixels.
 
Snowdog said:
This is what I don't understand. If it is calibrated, why still over saturated? Can't you calibrate against sRGB?

Doesn't calibration look at a bunch of RGB points like 235, 20, 20 and then check that the output color maps to the expected value ...

...Why doesn't anyone else do a cheaper (than NEC 2490) 24" IPS monitor like these, it seems the normal gamut panel would make it a lot less problematic.

I have next to Nil color aware apps and if it is over saturated in everything else, a wide gamut monitor is not a benefit, it is a detriment.
Click to expand...
The reason is simple. Let me break it down.

  1. The calibration hardware calibrates your monitor to a series of RGB reference points, correct. This ensures that RGB values properly compensated for the unique flaws of your individual monitor.
  2. The profile generated is specific to the flaws as well as raw gamut of your monitor. It is used as a reference but the actual gamut displayed is contingent on the application you are using.
  3. The Windows OS displays all content outside of color aware programs in the default gamut of your monitor. But because 99% of PC content is designed for sRGB all of the RGB values are matched to the wrong colors resulting in what people call “oversaturated” but really is just colors mapped to the wrong shade due to a gamut mismatch to the content displayed.
  4. In the past most monitors were pretty much all sRGB devices so it wasn’t much of an issue.

But your assessment is exactly correct for 99% users. Unless you have a need to work with wider gamuts color critical print work, it is not only useless but a negative. But because the effect is to over saturate colors it works like putting on an extra coat of wax and AmrorAll on an used car.

That said, when MS finals implements the next standard scRGB and monitors are capable of supporting that standard it will end the all whole gamut race. But the stretch between the two is going to need a bridge.

That said 92% is less than the 110%+ that is becomeing standard on new monitors.;)
 
ToastyX said:
...If you're looking for a bargain IPS monitor, this is the one to get. If you were considering the Planar, you might as well save $200 and get the DoubleSight instead, since it's basically the same monitor.
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Excellent review as always. I guess the only downside is if you get a monitor with more defects (6 pixels) vs (3 pixels) you have a less generous return policy.

Then again, nothing else would compete with this in that price range. A better panel and no lag.:D
 
mxpxrulzz said:
any other pics of the monitor itself, having a hard time picturing what this think looks like sitting on a desk...
Click to expand...


mxpxrulzz said:
does the bezel rotate?
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No. It can only tilt. Supposedly, there's also height adjustment, but I can't get the thing to budge.



M Diddy said:
Toasty, care to inform us what the warranty sheet that came with the monitor says???
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The warranty section of the manual says the warranty is three years. It doesn't mention dead pixels or advanced replacement.



Yelnats said:
ToastyX, I made a simple lag tester as I described in this post

Would you mind testing it with this VGA-split setup?
Click to expand...
You didn't post the program. Regardless, using multiple timers accomplishes almost the same thing. You can pretty much interpolate the results and get a general idea of where the LCD is updating.



Snowdog said:
This is what I don't understand. If it is calibrated, why still over saturated? Can't you calibrate against sRGB?
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Calibration only corrects the RGB gamma curves and the white point. It doesn't affect the gamut. You can't calibrate to another gamut.

Gamut conversions are not that simple. A lower gamut red is more orange. A lower gamut green is more yellow. These differences can't be mapped through simple RGB lookup tables.

Snowdog said:
Otherwise it seems like the increasing number of wide gamut monitors are mainly just a PITA for PC users, even with calibration.

Why doesn't anyone else do a cheaper (than NEC 2490) 24" IPS monitor like these, it seems the normal gamut panel would make it a lot less problematic.

I have next to Nil color aware apps and if it is over saturated in everything else, a wide gamut monitor is not a benefit, it is a detriment.
Click to expand...
That's what I've been saying. It's just more marketing BS that manufacturers are tripping over themselves to beat when it doesn't really help the consumer.

Many people mistakenly believe a wider gamut means more accurate colors, when in reality, it means exactly the opposite if you're dealing with sRGB or HDTV content.

HDTV content is designed for a gamut identical to sRGB, yet I'm seeing all these wider-gamut HDTVs coming out that oversaturate everything, and people think it's a good thing.

A wider gamut is only helpful if you actually need the wider gamut, like for print work. If you work with or view mostly sRGB or HDTV content, a wider gamut hurts more than it helps.
 
This monitor now appears on their website (it wasn't there last night), along with manual: http://www.doublesight.com/prod_ds263n.htm

EDIT: I just read the product description, and here are a few differences between the Planar and the Doublesight:

- The Planar has a better warranty: 3 years, 2-day replacement, paid shipping both ways, with a 3 dead/stuck pixels policy vs. Doublesight's 3 years limited with 6 dead/stuck pixels.

- The Planar is height, tilt, and swivel adjustable. The Doublesight only tilts. From photos its clear they have a different stand.

- The Doublesight apparently has built-in speakers. The Planar does not. I don't see where they're hidden, but the website says they're there.

- The Doublesight is $150-200 cheaper.

I'd rather have the Planar because I already own it, I like the 2-day replacement and prepaid shipping, adjustable height is important to me, and I don't need the speakers. Regardless, $699 is a steal for a 26" IPS, and anyone even considering a 24"-27" VA should just save themselves the trouble and get one of these. Hell, for that price they can buy two in case they need a backup. :)
 
I have to admit I am a little bothered this thing doesn't have height adjustment. I really don't care much about the swivel, but like to be able to move my monitor up and down.... :(
 
EW27 Thanks for the link. I think the website mentioning speakers is an oversight, it's referenced indirectly via user controls. There’s no mention of speakers in the pdf manual. The manual does state that the stand is adjustable for height.

Hopefully ToastyX will chime in. I know he mentioned that the he couldn’t get the stand to adjust up and down…maybe it’s just stiff trying to adjust it the first time? And the speakers issue should be easy enough to clear up…built-in speakers is a big negative for me.

By the way ToastyX thanks for the detailed testing and impressions. I ordered one today, should be a nice upgrade from my Dell 2005FPW
 
The product description on the website says its only "adjustable for tilt". I didn't even look at the manual. But you'll be able to answer that question when yours arrives. :)
 
Oh yeah my bad the speakers are specifically mentioned in the product description on the we b page. Yeah I guess I'll find out one way or another :D
 
Sorry to just jump in when I haven't been participating, but how do we know it is S-IPS?

Keith
 
Newegg’s listing specifically mentions an “LG-Philips S-IPS 8bit panel” and ToastyX’s feedback gives me pretty good confidence in it being an S-IPS panel…
 
thx, I downloaded the manual and didn't see it, nor did I see it on their own website. I had already forgotten about ToastyX's review as I had read it much earlier in the day.

Regards,

Keith
 
Luthorcrow said:
The reason is simple. Let me break it down.

  1. The calibration hardware calibrates your monitor to a series of RGB reference points, correct. This ensures that RGB values properly compensated for the unique flaws of your individual monitor.
  2. The profile generated is specific to the flaws as well as raw gamut of your monitor. It is used as a reference but the actual gamut displayed is contingent on the application you are using.
  3. The Windows OS displays all content outside of color aware programs in the default gamut of your monitor. But because 99% of PC content is designed for sRGB all of the RGB values are matched to the wrong colors resulting in what people call “oversaturated” but really is just colors mapped to the wrong shade due to a gamut mismatch to the content displayed.
  4. In the past most monitors were pretty much all sRGB devices so it wasn’t much of an issue.

But your assessment is exactly correct for 99% users. Unless you have a need to work with wider gamuts color critical print work, it is not only useless but a negative. But because the effect is to over saturate colors it works like putting on an extra coat of wax and AmrorAll on an used car.

That said, when MS finals implements the next standard scRGB and monitors are capable of supporting that standard it will end the all whole gamut race. But the stretch between the two is going to need a bridge.

That said 92% is less than the 110%+ that is becomeing standard on new monitors.;)
Click to expand...


What about PC games? Are they created with the sRGB color space? Would a wide gamut monitor display over saturated colors when playing PC games? What about console games as well, like PS3 or Xbox360?
 
Yelnats said:
Here is a link to my program. I'm curious to see how it works with a proper setup.
http://lcdlagtester.googlepages.com/lagtester.zip
Click to expand...
I had to run it in a window to get it to be vsynced on a Mac.

Here is a shot at 1/250 shutter speed:
ds-lag1.jpg

The CRT is about to reach the fourth line, while the DoubleSight is about to reach the second line.

Here is a similar shot at 1/500 shutter speed:
ds-lag2.jpg

The DoubleSight is about two lines behind the CRT, which means the lag is about 2/10 of a frame (3.3 ms) + response time.
 
The DoubleSight doesn't have speakers.

The manual says the height can be adjusted, but it doesn't even look like it can be adjusted. I think they just copied the same manual as the Planar.
 
Skunt said:
What about PC games? Are they created with the sRGB color space? Would a wide gamut monitor display over saturated colors when playing PC games? What about console games as well, like PS3 or Xbox360?
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PC games are designed for sRGB as that is the world standard. I had misread the specs on the HDTV color spec in the past. Apparently it is equivelent to sRGB. So yes, in both cases.

Now that said, some folks like oversaturated. Sony has sold a lot of units on this theory. But keep in mind its not really oversaturated. Its that each RGB value does not equal the same color shade in each gamut. So the wrong red, the wrong blue etc are displayed when anything other than a sRGB gamut is used.

But with the monitor companies moving forward, finding a good monitor that is sRGB is getting rarer and rarer. 92% is a lot closer than 110%-117%.:D
 
So, unless you use Photoshop or other graphics editing programs, wide gamut would be pointless? If all I'm doing is web browsing, movie watching, pc gaming and console gaming, wide gamut would actually be a bad choice because the colors would be wrong.
 
Skunt said:
So, unless you use Photoshop or other graphics editing programs, wide gamut would be pointless? If all I'm doing is web browsing, movie watching, pc gaming and console gaming, wide gamut would actually be a bad choice because the colors would be wrong.
Click to expand...

Essentially Yes. What is worse is that all the decent quality panels (IPS) seem to be moving to wide gamut. Meaning the high quality general use panels will soon be non-existent.

I applaud an inexpensive IPS panel with low lag. But I don't think this is for me. Issues:

Wide Gamut: As mentioned, this is a Con, giving inaccurate colors the majority of the time.

Brightness: If this is like other 500cd/m2 panels I have see, it will scorch my retinas at zero brightness, requiring further adjustment at the graphics card level resulting in even poorer contrast, and subjectively worse looking blacks.

Pixel Pitch: I like a finer pitch, closer to 100dpi.

I think I will either go for the accuracy/quality of the NEC 2490, or the massive resolution of the Dell 3007-hc (still have color issues though).
 
I wonder if the problem with wide gamut monitors displaying sRGB is really that big of a deal. I see more people say they enjoy their wide gamut IPS panels even with sRGB content than not. Also, the wide gamut monitors seem more future-proof than regular gamut ones although it's unclear if anything beyond sRGB will become commonplace in the lifetime of these current wide gamut displays.
 
anonymous_object said:
I wonder if the problem with wide gamut monitors displaying sRGB is really that big of a deal. I see more people say they enjoy their wide gamut IPS panels even with sRGB content than not. Also, the wide gamut monitors seem more future-proof than regular gamut ones although it's unclear if anything beyond sRGB will become commonplace in the lifetime of these current wide gamut displays.
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Ahhh. The tyranny of the majority. If we left it to what most people like, we will all be using glossy TN panels with oversaturated disney colors with extra sharpening applied, and no way to defeat it.

Accurate monitors should be delivered. If you like oversaturated colors a small trip to your computers graphics card control can fix that. No need to saddle everyone with incorrect colors for that effect.

You can't go the other way. You can't fix the incorrect gamut by simply visiting graphics controls and desaturating.

As far as future proof. I don't think so. In order properly handle Wider Gamuts we need new OSs and new graphics cards and new display standards and new interconnects.. Simply grafting a wide gamut panel into 8 bit depth world is no solution.
 
Snowdog said:
Ahhh. The tyranny of the majority. If we left it to what most people like, we will all be using glossy TN panels with oversaturated disney colors with extra sharpening applied, and no way to defeat it.

Accurate monitors should be delivered. If you like oversaturated colors a small trip to your computers graphics card control can fix that. No need to saddle everyone with incorrect colors for that effect.

You can't go the other way. You can fix the incorrect gamut by simply visiting graphics controls and desaturating.

As far as future proof. I don't think so. In order properly handle Wider Gamuts we need new OSs and new graphics cards and new display standards and new interconnects.. Simply grafting a wide gamut panel into 8 bit depth world is no solution.
Click to expand...

There is some truth to this, but there is also evidence that we're going to get more color-correct programs at there. Firefox 3 Beta, for instance, is one such example.
 
verylostindeed said:
There is some truth to this, but there is also evidence that we're going to get more color-correct programs at there. Firefox 3 Beta, for instance, is one such example.
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Yippee. 98% incorrect colors instead of 99%. There is no sign of color aware movie players/games. What if you prefer Opera or IE?

At this time you are much MUCH better off with a standard gamut panel.
 
Snowdog said:
Yippee. 98% incorrect colors instead of 99%. There is no sign of color aware movie players/games. What if you prefer Opera or IE?

At this time you are much MUCH better off with a standard gamut panel.
Click to expand...

If you prefer Opera or IE, you should probably kill yourself. Incidentally, that'll solve the wide-gamut issue as well.
 
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