Finally over WoW, considering LOTRO

[theDreamer]

If you have a quest to do it, you can do it the first time. No one says you have to keep doing it, if you are doing something you don't enjoy you are dumb. I like doing instances, when I get to the point that I am bored of them I will stop doing them.
Doing a quest for the first time is grinding though, you have not seen that. Even though you do not repeat that quest you are grinding towards some goal.


There are whole games based on PvP'ing, it is simply playing the game. You don't have to do it until you get an item, the honor rewards and items are simply bonuses you can get. No one has a gun to your head. Again, if you don't want to do it any more, dont. If you continue doing it even though you are bored of it it is your own fault.
Again, you are playing the gaming, but guess what. You are repeating a task of killing the horde, for honor or not, you are grinding in your actions


So again, you have to accomplish certain objectives to reach a certain goal... sounds like every other game I have ever played
Other MMOs? If not, stop bringing them into this discussion. If you are referring to MMos then you are grinding to reach your goal or accomplishment.


Should they just give you full ability to begin with? leveling up your professions is a representation of gaining skill and experience as you would in the real world.
That is correct, you are gaining something, but you are grinding[/] to achieve that goal.


Again, if it is not entertaining, don't do it. I happen to enjoy destroying mobs with my well geared level 70. If I stopped enjoying it I would stop playing it. By your definition it is not a grind for me, as it does not meet the qualification that it is "non-entertaining"

You just took a part of a definition out of context completely to fit your explanation. It is and/or. Repetition in an MMO is grinding whether it be for, faction, honor, quest, gear (armor/weapons), or just wanting to kill a mob.

 

[theDreamer]

I said the day it was released, I didnt say total. The figure is for box sales also, not including online purchases and downloads.

Using a mod called census+ I can show you how many players (at least) have the expansion compared to the total on my server, It is ~90%. The other 10% don't necessarily not have the expansion, they just aren't high enough level to use it yet.

That is great that mod can do that, but how many of them are active, or farmers/botters. How many of them actively participate in the game more than just logging on for a bit then off only chat with friends; I did the log on/off for awhile when I was busy with school. I wanted to make sure some friends of mind did not think something happened, plus just to keep in touch with people. Does your mod take that into account?

 

[oneil]

Or you could finally get over MMOs and play something less time consuming

 

[theDreamer]

Or you could finally get over MMOs and play something less time consuming

Exactly what I do, reading or just hope into the a occasional FPS game of my choice for 5-10 minutes.

 

[CodeX]

You just took a part of a definition out of context completely to fit your explanation. It is and/or. Repetition in an MMO is grinding whether it be for, faction, honor, quest, gear (armor/weapons), or just wanting to kill a mob.

All of your responses basically tell me that you are defining grinding so loosely it could apply to pretty much every game ever made. This waters down your argument to the point that is inconsequential.

Here are some examples.

Diablo / Titan Quest / Final Fantasy: you have to kill things to increase your character level = GRINDING!
Fear / FarCry / Half Life: You have to kill a certain number of enemies over and over again to make any progress = GRINDING!
Forza / NFS / Any racing game: There are hundreds of races in the campaign yet only a handful of tracks = repetition = GRINDING!
SupCom / TA / Starcraft: You have to build the same units over and over to kill the same enemy units over and over = GRINDING!

Tell me how those examples are different than WoW

 

[theDreamer]

All of your responses basically tell me that you are defining grinding so loosely it could apply to pretty much every game ever made. This waters down your argument to the point that is inconsequential.

How? Please provide examples when you are trying to disprove a statement, do not just say it is illogical or does not work. My responses are showing you that many if not all forms of WoW are worked around grinding and how it affects the game & what you do. Basically the game is about grinding, but you are rewarded for your efforts, I am not denying that in the least. Yet you have to understand that the effort or "work" to be put into acquiring the item is a repeated task it is in turn grinding.

 

[theDreamer]

Diablo / Titan Quest / Final Fantasy: you have to kill things to increase your character level = GRINDING!
Fear / FarCry / Half Life: You have to kill a certain number of enemies over and over again to make any progress = GRINDING!
Forza / NFS / Any racing game: There are hundreds of races in the campaign yet only a handful of tracks = repetition = GRINDING!
SupCom / TA / Starcraft: You have to build the same units over and over to kill the same enemy units over and over = GRINDING!

Diablo/TQ/FF are exactly the same as MMOs, but in solo form (or with a smaller population). Host based servers do not allow for the massive type games so you are limited to the amount of players.
Fear/FarCry/HL - different game, not in this discussion, please stop trying to bring it in.
Forza/NFS/racing games - different game, not in this discussion, please stop trying to bring it in.
SupCom/TA/SC - different game, not in this discussion, please stop trying to bring it in.

We are specifically speaking about MMOs here, please stop bringing in outside games to the equation, because as I said before there are different equations for different genres of games. Many of them have grinding in them, but in different forms or aspects, but lets focus on MMOs as this topic is about.

 

[CodeX]

Diablo/TQ/FF are exactly the same as MMOs, but in solo form (or with a smaller population). Host based servers do not allow for the massive type games so you are limited to the amount of players.
Fear/FarCry/HL - different game, not in this discussion, please stop trying to bring it in.
Forza/NFS/racing games - different game, not in this discussion, please stop trying to bring it in.
SupCom/TA/SC - different game, not in this discussion, please stop trying to bring it in.

We are specifically speaking about MMOs here, please stop bringing in outside games to the equation, because as I said before there are different equations for different genres of games. Many of them have grinding in them, but in different forms or aspects, but lets focus on MMOs as this topic is about.

So wait, let me get this straight... you are actually arguing that other MMO's don't have grinding like WoW does? I didn't even consider that because that is so ludicrous.

In any case my point was that WoW is no more of a grind than any other game in any other genre. Do not tell me to stop bringing up games from other genres when that is part of the point I am trying to make.

 

[theDreamer]

So wait, let me get this straight... you are actually arguing that other MMO's don't have grinding like WoW does?

Are you just making up things now, where have I ever said that?

No, I am not wanting to bring in other genres because they have no place in this discussion, it began with saying that WoW is 100% based around grinding, which I have proven time and again, in many ways I feel correct. You countered with an argument and I proceeded to provide what I can to prove to you that WoW is 100% grinding, with none, zero, topic about comparing other MMOs, or even other games.

 

[theDreamer]

In any case my point was that WoW is no more of a grind than any other game in any other genre. Do not tell me to stop bringing up games from other genres when that is part of the point I am trying to make.

That is fine that you think WoW is no more than any other genre, but that was not the argument.

 

[theDreamer]

WoW is 100% grinding, which is why it is the ultimate time sink, all aspects of the game revolve around grinding.

There is the beginning of the discussion, and what we were talking about.
Not WoW v. other MMOs or other genres, just WoW is 100% grinding.

 

[CodeX]

Are you just making up things now, where have I ever said that?

No, I am not wanting to bring in other genres because they have no place in this discussion, it began with saying that WoW is 100% based around grinding, which I have proven time and again, in many ways I feel correct. You countered with an argument and I proceeded to provide what I can to prove to you that WoW is 100% grinding, with none, zero, topic about comparing other MMOs, or even other games.

...and in my defense I brought up the fact that according to your definition of grinding every single game ever made qualifies as nothing but a grind.

In my opinion grinding is what you do in FFXI, there are very few quests, certaintly not enough to progress you through the game. The only way to progress was to kill mobs, far too many mobs with far too little variety and with no direction or guidance by the game. THAT is grinding, WoW does not force you to do that to progress like FFXI does (of course you can, but there are plenty of other ways to progress through the game)

Anyways, I brought up other games to illustrate that according to your definition every single game is 100% grinding. Making your argument inconsequential, as I have already said.

 

[Braamer]

Wow, you 2 are annoying!

 

[CodeX]

Wow, you 2 are annoying!

mission: complete!

 

[Braamer]

Wow, you 2 are annoying!

[CodeX]No I'm not! [\CodeX]

 

[Braamer]

[CodeX]No I'm not! [\CodeX]

[theDreamer]Yes you are![\theDreamer]

 

[theDreamer]

Debating over a game & the substance in such game is annoying? Never though I would see the day someone complaining about two or more people debating a video game, but today is the day.

 

[CodeX]

Debating over a game & the substance in such game is annoying? Never though I would see the day someone complaining about two or more people debating a video game, but today is the day.

I thought we where keeping it more or less civilized and having a fairly intelligent debate... I guess I was wrong, I apologize braamer, if there is anything else I can do to make your stay at [H]ard|Forum more enjoyable please let me know.

 

[Braamer]

Debating over a game & the substance in such game is annoying? Never though I would see the day someone complaining about two or more people debating a video game, but today is the day.

If that was a debate, it was a very poorly done one.

Neither of you would budge an inch, and both kept repeating the same thing over and over.

ALL MMOs have a grind involved, it's the nature of the beast. But the grind in WoW is not nearly as noticeable because it is a lot of fun to play and there is such a variety of things to do. I think one of the best things WoW did is offer a lot of different zones to quest in at each level, and you were never in the same zone very long.

Other MMOs, you are in the same zone seemingly forever. I got so sick and tired of the Lone Lands in LotRO, being there from around level 12 to 30.

 

[theDreamer]

If that was a debate, it was a very poorly done one.

Neither of you would budge an inch, and both kept repeating the same thing over and over.

ALL MMOs have a grind involved, it's the nature of the beast. But the grind in WoW is not nearly as noticeable because it is a lot of fun to play and there is such a variety of things to do. I think one of the best things WoW did is offer a lot of different zones to quest in at each level, and you were never in the same zone very long.

Other MMOs, you are in the same zone seemingly forever. I got so sick and tired of the Lone Lands in LotRO, being there from around level 12 to 30.

Here, let me introduce you to the "common" debate...


You are...WRONG
That is all you normally get, maybe some nasty words which end up getting the thread closed. Whether either of us would move from one side or the other, we were presenting our argument against the other in a reasonable fashion, without name calling and other put downs.

Opinion is opinion, showing yours, and arguing over it is fine.

 

[Inu]

WoW felt like it takes very little skill to play, yes the raid events takes time to practice and get good at, but for the most part it feels exactly like grinding to me. And the bad part about it is for most guilds, if you have low attendance, it feels like your helping everyone but yourself.

The practice is all timing too, its like zomg im gonna get my timing right this time... yay, feels like ive done this before.

It may just be that i came from 3 years of EQ1 and i played WoW from beta. Entire time it felt too "easy" or "been done" before.

 

[dderidex]

Anyways, I brought up other games to illustrate that according to your definition every single game is 100% grinding. Making your argument inconsequential, as I have already said.

To jump in on that one point...

...other games (sans MMOs/RPGs) are not "grinding", as you do not "make progress" only by repeating the same action over and over. Yes, you COULD play Far Cry just standing in one spot and shooting bad guy after bad guy as he respawns...but no sane person would DO that.

The "game" of Far Cry is the story progression. You could get through it without killing a single thing if you wanted (well, not sure about Far Cry - I've certainly done it with other 'shooters', though, just to prove it could be done). Whether you blast your way through the level, or sneak your way through, or some combination of the two - the "game" isn't shooting something over and over until your character changes in some fundamental way. Indeed, you are the exact same when you end the game as when you start - the only difference is that you've experienced an interesting story.

I think "Serious Sam" is the only series you could make a case for being a "grind" in that you really are repeating some action over and over, but there are still several major differences:

- You aren't just "clicking a button". In fact, the game does nothing automatically for you at all, it's all reflexes and player skill.

- You have to be pretty amazingly bad at the game to see the same environment/level more than once. Even when "grinding" in them, you are - every single entrance into the game world - fighting through wildly different areas.

- Your character doesn't change from this. The "game" is your skills vs the environment, and if you started dropped off in the last level instead of the first, you'd do just as well as someone who fought their way all the way through (presuming actual player skill, of course). Compare to any MMO out there, where a level 1 player - no matter HOW personally skilled - dropped into a level 60 zone is just dead meat, instantly.

The point being argued is that WoW/other MMOs/some RPGs really are ONLY about the grind. Technically, there is a story, true, but it's meaningless. Most people playing the game don't pay it any attention, and why should they? 99% of the effort the game developers put into it is levelling, more loot for levelling, new skills/spells/effects/etc for different levels, etc.

I'll change my opinion about MMOs when they come out with one level-capped at 10 - or, better, no levels at all - the game being the same experience for everyone.

 

[Braamer]

To jump in on that one point...

...other games (sans MMOs/RPGs) are not "grinding", as you do not "make progress" only by repeating the same action over and over. Yes, you COULD play Far Cry just standing in one spot and shooting bad guy after bad guy as he respawns...but no sane person would DO that.

The "game" of Far Cry is the story progression. You could get through it without killing a single thing if you wanted (well, not sure about Far Cry - I've certainly done it with other 'shooters', though, just to prove it could be done). Whether you blast your way through the level, or sneak your way through, or some combination of the two - the "game" isn't shooting something over and over until your character changes in some fundamental way. Indeed, you are the exact same when you end the game as when you start - the only difference is that you've experienced an interesting story.

I think "Serious Sam" is the only series you could make a case for being a "grind" in that you really are repeating some action over and over, but there are still several major differences:

- You aren't just "clicking a button". In fact, the game does nothing automatically for you at all, it's all reflexes and player skill.

- You have to be pretty amazingly bad at the game to see the same environment/level more than once. Even when "grinding" in them, you are - every single entrance into the game world - fighting through wildly different areas.

- Your character doesn't change from this. The "game" is your skills vs the environment, and if you started dropped off in the last level instead of the first, you'd do just as well as someone who fought their way all the way through (presuming actual player skill, of course). Compare to any MMO out there, where a level 1 player - no matter HOW personally skilled - dropped into a level 60 zone is just dead meat, instantly.

The point being argued is that WoW/other MMOs/some RPGs really are ONLY about the grind. Technically, there is a story, true, but it's meaningless. Most people playing the game don't pay it any attention, and why should they? 99% of the effort the game developers put into it is levelling, more loot for levelling, new skills/spells/effects/etc for different levels, etc.

I'll change my opinion about MMOs when they come out with one level-capped at 10 - or, better, no levels at all - the game being the same experience for everyone.

Absolute hogwash.

You may not gain levels in FPS, but there is a grind involved in trying to get to different levels. Plus, in a lot of them you gain better weapons, health packs, etc., so to say you don't change is bologna.

 

[mulpsmebeauty]

Absolute hogwash.

You may not gain levels in FPS, but there is a grind involved in trying to get to different levels. Plus, in a lot of them you gain better weapons, health packs, etc., so to say you don't change is bologna.

The difference is that in an fps, you are working through constantly changing levels/scenery/scenarios. One minute you might be doing a run and gun on board a ship, the next you're creeping up on an army base through thick undergrowth. In WoW (as the most convenient example) on an Arathi Basin weekend you're doing that same damn battleground over and over and over and over again. If you want your 10% drop rate item from the last boss in Shadow Lab, you do it over and over and over and over again until the item drops. *That* is what grinding is. Fair enough you can simplify the argument by saying that "all fps games boil down to shooting stuff" or "all driving games are the same" but I'd say that WoW takes it to an extreme. Furthermore it makes grinding almost compulsory as it's designed to make you feel left out if you don't keep on top of your kit.

Don't get me wrong, I've played WoW since release (which gives you an idea of how much I've enjoyed it), but I'm aware that no matter how you dress it up, the whole game is made to keep drip feeding you little rewards, so that you keep up your subscription.

 

[dderidex]

The difference is that in an fps, you are working through constantly changing levels/scenery/scenarios. One minute you might be doing a run and gun on board a ship, the next you're creeping up on an army base through thick undergrowth. In WoW (as the most convenient example) on an Arathi Basin weekend you're doing that same damn battleground over and over and over and over again. If you want your 10% drop rate item from the last boss in Shadow Lab, you do it over and over and over and over again until the item drops. *That* is what grinding is. Fair enough you can simplify the argument by saying that "all fps games boil down to shooting stuff" or "all driving games are the same" but I'd say that WoW takes it to an extreme. Furthermore it makes grinding almost compulsory as it's designed to make you feel left out if you don't keep on top of your kit.

That's all the point I'm trying to make.

When you play through the opening arrival on Far Cry (try it - it's free in the demo), you play it...

...once.

And exactly once.

And AT MOST once.

You certainly don't play it dozens of times. Indeed, there is no BENEFIT to doing it more than once. Did you survive? Fine, move on - the rest of the game is the "story", and it still awaits.

The idea of a "10% drop" where you have to play a given level a dozen times to make SURE you get some specific thing is outright lunacy in the shooter or RTS genre. You play it ONCE, if you survive it, you move on - there is absolutely nothing more to it than that. You lose nothing in the game at all by doing that, indeed, the entire game design is predicated on it.

Don't get me wrong, I've played WoW since release (which gives you an idea of how much I've enjoyed it), but I'm aware that no matter how you dress it up, the whole game is made to keep drip feeding you little rewards, so that you keep up your subscription.

And I think you've nailed the reason for it, right there. A 'shooter' doesn't care if you play through the entire game content, from start to finish, and experience EVERYTHING in 12 hours. For a shooter, that's considered a fair investment. You pay your $50 for the retail title, expecting 10-20 hours of gameplay, and if you get 12...everyone walks away happy. You got what you expected, the publisher delivered what you were willing to pay $50 for, and...that's that.

With an MMO, there is an expectation that you need 1000+ hours of gameplay...but the developer really doesn't have THAT many more resources to extend it over a traditional 'shooter'/RTS/etc timeframe....so it feels like they stretch it out by leveling and 'drip feeding' you.

 

[ivan_gromov]

Referring to page 4.

WoW does have a ton of grinding, but it is not as bad as you guys make it seem. For the most part, it is quite fun, every aspect of the game is great, You do get to a point where you must grind, just becasue you want some drops, such as thick leather, which is not that boring. I have got to level 50 and there weren't many instances when I just played bored. Yes, indeed, it takes quite some time to do things in the game, and yes I waiste most of my free time playing it, even though I do not have much of it, but I really enjoy it. LOTRO may be indeed made for players like me, but I am sorry, I just couldn't get into it at start.

 

[evanisthecoastie]

I love how everyone is stating their own 'opinions' on the game, and calling it fact, instead of simply stating:


Wow is fun, i like the leveling phase, but not the endgame

or

I hate leveling, im all about hitting 70 and pvping

Now, lets get back the reason this thread exists: All he wanted to know is if someone had a guest pass, not everyones opinions stated as so called facts. Settle that in Pm's. He said he was bored with wow, and wants to give this other game a shot, so leave it at that, and if you cannot help him in what he is asking, dont post crap all over his help thread.

 

[Dallows]

Agreed, Lotro sucks compared to WoW. If you are done with WoW you might as well be done with MMO's until something better comes out

Lol. I love WoW fanboys.

 

[ivan_gromov]

Lol. I love WoW fanboys.

Yea, people like that are the ones that have 5 lvl 70 chraracters with all epics, simply because ther eis nothing better to do for them.

 

[CodeX]

Yea, people like that are the ones that have 5 lvl 70 chraracters with all epics, simply because ther eis nothing better to do for them.

I have one level 70... I am full time student, I have a full time job during the summer, and I have a girlfriend I have been with for 4 years. I really hate the stereotyping of WoW players, or MMO players in general.

A United States senator has a level 70 priest in a hardcore raiding guild, stereotype him.

 

[ivan_gromov]

I have one level 70... I am full time student, I have a full time job during the summer, and I have a girlfriend I have been with for 4 years. I really hate the stereotyping of WoW players, or MMO players in general.

A United States senator has a level 70 priest in a hardcore raiding guild, stereotype him.

In most cases it is true though. All of the kids I see on my server, it is insane. I was n really referring to you when I said that. I saw your website, I know you are not "one of them".

 

[Dallows]

I have one level 70... I am full time student, I have a full time job during the summer, and I have a girlfriend I have been with for 4 years. I really hate the stereotyping of WoW players, or MMO players in general.

A United States senator has a level 70 priest in a hardcore raiding guild, stereotype him.

I'll be the first to tell you I haven't read this entire thread, too long and pointless for the time. I called you a fanboy because you jumped all over Lotro on the first page. Like I said I didn't read the whole thread, but I haven't seen any specifics on why it sucks so bad compared to WoW.

WoW is awful btw.

 

[ServerKing]

I bet the senetor had one of his "aids" level the character for him....

 

[wfalcon]

Hmmm - came in here expecting to see a 6-page thread on LOTRO and perhaps an [H] Fellowship only to see half of it is about grinding and WoW.

Anyway, have a lvl 30 hunter on Landroval - been having a blast in North Downs so far. If anyone wants a trial/buddy key, I can send one - actually they have a referral program but cap it out at 5 at a time to make sure no one is spamming. If anyone wants to try it, give me a shout.

 

[dderidex]

How do the LotR:O trial keys work? Are they time limited (10 days, or something), or level-capped, or...something else? And how many can you give out?

 

[wfalcon]

They are time-limited to 10 days. Anyone with an active LOTRO account can only send out 5 at a time to an email address. Word of warning - the program is 4GB of download - the URL you get will only get you a LOTRO downloader that you can pause/resume at anytime.

Disclaimer - didn't notice the stickied thread here until after I made my previous post.

I'm digging it more than WoW so far - it seems like a more mature crowd. This is not to say there is no immaturity - Bree OOC chat is horrid and reminds me of the time I spent in the Barrens in WoW.

I haven't tried PvMP yet, so I can't comment on it.

The grind? Well, I'd be lying if I said it wasn't present. You will get some quests that are "Kill 20 of these and 16 of those". But it's not that bad - the optional traits/titles will require more, but are generally in-line with the quests that you undertake, so you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone so-to-speak. You won't really have to grind for cash if you start selling items at the AH. I've already got the necessary gold to purchase my mount when I hit lvl 35.

The areas seem pretty diverse so far - the forges of Dwarf-land (can't remember it's name), forests in Bree, rolling hills of the Shire, desert of the Lonelands, etc. The enemies - not quite as diverse - the spiders you encounter at lower-lvls will look the same later on with different colors.

I'm sure there's more to mention, but I'm kinda at work right now.

 

[k1pp3r]

Just something to consider here, i just canceled my account and i got this in my email

Please print a copy of this receipt for your records.

Your The Lord of the Rings Online(tm) : "*****" subscription has been
canceled. We are sad to see you go, but you come back again in the
future at any time by returning to the MyAccount @ Turbine website, but you
may lose your existing characters.

so i'll send all my money off to a friend but just FYI to anyone interested, this annoyed me enough to no want to play turbine games anymore.

 

[CodeX]

The grind? Well, I'd be lying if I said it wasn't present. You will get some quests that are "Kill 20 of these and 16 of those". But it's not that bad - the optional traits/titles will require more, but are generally in-line with the quests that you undertake, so you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone so-to-speak. You won't really have to grind for cash if you start selling items at the AH. I've already got the necessary gold to purchase my mount when I hit lvl 35.

The areas seem pretty diverse so far - the forges of Dwarf-land (can't remember it's name), forests in Bree, rolling hills of the Shire, desert of the Lonelands, etc. The enemies - not quite as diverse - the spiders you encounter at lower-lvls will look the same later on with different colors.

You talking about LOTRO or WoW? They sound the same lol, did LOTRO just ripoff WoW entirely?

 

[wfalcon]

You talking about LOTRO or WoW? They sound the same lol, did LOTRO just ripoff WoW entirely?

lol - To be perfectly honest - it does have a WoW like feel with some little things changed - Fellowships instead of Groups...OOC instead of General Chat...I haven't seen any slutty Elf dancing yet though.

I guess the biggest differences would be: (1.) No ability to gank or be ganked during questing unless you visit the Ettenmoors (lvl 40 and up), and (2.) PvMP - you can play as a monster as early as lvl 10. I guess I should try the PvMP soon - been dying to beat up on a hobbit for a while.

 

[Satarel]

You talking about LOTRO or WoW? They sound the same lol, did LOTRO just ripoff WoW entirely?

With a comment such as this I'm going to assume that WoW is the first MMO you have ever played. Well let me go ahead and enlighten you to the fact that WoW ripped off every concept they had from previous MMO's. The only thing new WoW brought to the table was limited downtime, polish, and noob friendly content. All three of those are important additions, don't get me wrong. What irks me though is people calling every other MMO that comes out now a WoW clone with a different skin. Well guess what, WoW is exactly that only of every other previous MMO.