Gaming on a wide-gamut display

[LuminaryJanitor]

I picked up a 30'' HP LP3065 yesterday, since my old 21'' Trinitron is on its way out... Never owned an LCD before, so I was completely ignorant of the whole colour space issue.

So I take it home, hook it up, fire up a couple of games... and they just look awful. Nice and sharp and detailed, but with ridiculous oversaturation and excessive contrast. After an hour or two of fiddling with the calibration, without managing anything better than "less awful", I started to get concerned... A couple of hours of research later and it's clear why this is happening, but not what I can do about it. Many have gone as far as to say that the problem is flat-out unsolvable.

Now, I find it a bit hard to believe that anyone (aside from professional photographers and the like) would hand over $1700 for a monitor that's invariably going to look like shit outside of Photoshop and Firefox, but there are certainly a lot of wide-gamut monitors out there today (hell, I don't think anyone's even making a sRGB 30'' any more...), so there must be something I can do about it.

Can anyone offer some suggestions? I'm on the verge of putting this piece of shit back on eBay and plugging my dying CRT back in, because it sure looks a hell of a lot better than this...

(Running Win 7 x64, GTX 580, and should probably point out that the LP3065 has no sRGB emulator and no OSD or built-in settings of any kind, beyond backlight intensity.)

 

[Roadhog]

My dell u2711 has a bunch of modes. Two of those are sRGB and adobe rgb. That's odd that your monitor wouldn't include anything like that. Though some games I like the adoge rgb mode just due to the higher contrast. Maybe get the dell u3011 instead? I assume it has the same osd as mine.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[limitedaccess]

You are better off asking this in the display section for specifics. But there are also some other ways to "adjust" but not truly resolve the issue (don't get your hopes up though).

But yes typically you need to use color managed software for wide gamut, which games are not (maybe a rare few are). Some people do not consider the color issue in games to be an issue as well. A monitor that fits the needs of some people for certain application may not fit for others. Don't think a more expensive monitor is necessarily best for you, it really isn't as straight forward as say comparing CPUs or GPUs, there is a lot of subjective importance involved.

The Dell u3011 is a 30 inch that offers a sRGB mode.

 

[Spare-Flair]

Are you sure you haven't tried changing your LCD's modes yet? HP's should have Movie/Photo/Text/Gaming/Custom, etc. or similar modes.

 

[LuminaryJanitor]

You are better off asking this in the display section for specifics. But there are also some other ways to "adjust" but not truly resolve the issue (don't get your hopes up though).

Had a look around in there, but got the feeling most of the discussion doesn't really seem to have gaming in mind. In particular because no one seemed to share my sense of revulsion at the horrible IQ on this thing. But I'll give them a try if I don't find an answer here (if I haven't thrown in the towel and sold it by then...).

The Dell u3011 is a 30 inch that offers a sRGB mode.

Haven't heard much good about sRGB emulation, though things might have changed in the interim. Still, I'd be tempted to go for a real sRGB like the 3007wpf instead and just avoid this whole mess.

Better yet, I'd probably rather pick up another 21'' CRT for $10-20. Atrocious colour balance aside, the input lag (even with no scaler and no built-in adjustment), ghosting/blur, massive IQ hit when dropping resolution, and hideous rainbow-sparkle anti-glare coating have left me thoroughly unimpressed with the whole LCD gaming experience.

Are you sure you haven't tried changing your LCD's modes yet? HP's should have Movie/Photo/Text/Gaming/Custom, etc. or similar modes.

You mean built-in modes? Doesn't have any. Like I said, it doesn't even have an OSD. All you can do is turn it on and tune the backlight.

 

[bamaland]

simple and logical go LED.

i've had the same screen as you and can fully understand what your saying.. ive only worked with 4 LED screens so far but color is just so much better all around

 

[sok0]

If you bought it yesterday, I'm sure you could take it back today and buy a non wide gamut monitor with non shitty input lag. Dell has a couple of good ones, and so does NEC.

 

[northrop]

Can anyone offer some suggestions?

Next time, research before you buy anything.

This is from the first review site that comes up on google:

If you need to see highly accurate sRGB, 6500K web colors, as well as accurate print color, it's not for you. You cannot change the color space or color temperature via the on screen menus. In fact, there are no onscreen menus at all. The front panel only has a brightness control and video input select button.

You got yourself a really nice monitor, that is built for a completely different task. It's almost as if you picked up a Maseratti, and was expecting to take it for a safari. Take that thing back as others have suggested, and buy something that will actually meet your needs. Price isn't everything.

 

[LuminaryJanitor]

Maybe get the dell u3011 instead?

simple and logical go LED.

Yes, obviously I can just buy another... But I'm here looking for alternatives.

If you bought it yesterday, I'm sure you could take it back today and buy a non wide gamut monitor with non shitty input lag.

Got it second hand, so I doubt the seller is going to take it back with no reason beyond my own stupidity.

Next time, research before you buy anything.

Hey, I tried. That review is at the bottom of page 3 when searching for "LP3065 review". I read the first half a dozen, and heard nothing but praise.

What's more, over the past few years I've heard people warn against certain LCDs for a ton of different reasons (shitty TN panels, input lag, ghosting, backlight bleed, poor scaling, etc.) and I've never heard a mention of this wide-gamut issue. I heard a ton of praise regarding the scaler-less LP3065's great input response - something that only a gamer would care about - and not one of them thought to mention that every one of your games* is going to look like shit.

You got yourself a really nice monitor, that is built for a completely different task.

I thought all the monitors for professional desktop publishing were in a totally different market segment (like, $3000+ for a 24''), up there with medical imaging and the like. Just about everything I read billed the LP3065 as a competitor to the 3007WPF, which I know is a popular choice for gamers.


(*Well, except for Mirror's Edge, though it is a little over the top at times...)

 

[limitedaccess]

Had a look around in there, but got the feeling most of the discussion doesn't really seem to have gaming in mind. In particular because no one seemed to share my sense of revulsion at the horrible IQ on this thing. But I'll give them a try if I don't find an answer here (if I haven't thrown in the towel and sold it by then...).

I'm pretty sure some of the regulars have expressed disdain for wide gamut.

You can try some color correction options in your video card control panel. This can mask some issues by toning down certain colors, but it is not an actual fix, since you will lose quality/accuracy elsewhere. But maybe it subjectively might be more pleasing to you after some adjustment (some people find so).

Haven't heard much good about sRGB emulation, though things might have changed in the interim. Still, I'd be tempted to go for a real sRGB like the 3007wpf instead and just avoid this whole mess.

I know the u2410 sRGB emulation mode is very good. I am not sure off the top of my head the quality of the u3011's though.

Better yet, I'd probably rather pick up another 21'' CRT for $10-20. Atrocious colour balance aside, the input lag (even with no scaler and no built-in adjustment), ghosting/blur, massive IQ hit when dropping resolution, and hideous rainbow-sparkle anti-glare coating have left me thoroughly unimpressed with the whole LCD gaming experience.

Currently every display solution has certain pros/cons regardless of price. But you might want to try posting system specs, budget and requirements and see if the display section has some suggestions. A 30 inch computer monitor may not actually be what you are looking for. Multimonitor (eyefinity/surround), 120hz, plasma or LCD TV, projector are some viable options with pros/cons. Plenty of people still swear by the Sony fw900 though, if you can find one for a CRT.

simple and logical go LED.

i've had the same screen as you and can fully understand what your saying.. ive only worked with 4 LED screens so far but color is just so much better all around

Yes, obviously I can just buy another... But I'm here looking for alternatives.

I'd just like to point out that what he said by itself makes no real sense. Do not just rush out looking for a LED back lit monitor (which are still LCDs).

 

[PrincessFrosty]

I have the 3007WFP-HC which is a wide(r) colour gamut version of the 3007WFP, it has the same lack of controls on the actual panel itself, there is a brightness adjustment for the backlight and a power on/off and that's it, any colour adjustment has to be done in the display drivers.

With this particular monitor I find it fine, I've had to dump the brightness down because quite frankly my eyes can't take extended use of anything above about 50% brightness, I use the monitor for extended periods. The colour takes a little while to get used too, especially coming from a TN panel which has extremely washed out colours.

All I can really suggest is you fiddle with colour settings in the graphics drivers and try and get it as you need it, the adjustment to such rich colours takes a while if you're coming from an inferior panel.

 

[mannyman]

I'd just like to point out that what he said by itself makes no real sense. Do not just rush out looking for a LED back lit monitor (which are still LCDs).

It does looke better, Because the quality of the light produced by LED's is far better than the fluorescent light, Better on the eyes. so you perceive it better.

 

[Yoshiyuki Blade]

I don't think Windows is color-managed (could be different nowadays but I haven't researched it lately), so everything is screwy on a high gamut display because it assumes sRGB. I'm pretty sure games are designed with sRGB in mind too, so there probably isn't a real increase in colors anyway. What you're seeing is an sRGB workspace displayed on a monitor that assumes Adobe RGB. Color-managed workspaces is where it matters, like in Photoshop. You can open a picture with any colorspace there and it'll look fine because PS will convert/output it to your monitor's space on the fly.

One way to "see" what a screwed up colorspace looks like is by opening an sRGB photo in PS, and set it to assume something else, like Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB. It'll look waaay off.

 

[RadXge]

I own high quality colorimeter (Chroma 5) and I would not say that colors are more accurate on LED than CCFL. LED current implementation for computer monitors has only a few benefits such as lower power consumption and slimmer design. LED does not necessary translate into higher image quality.

As opposed to HDTV for which the color standard is Rec 709 (6500K), game developers do not have to follow any color standard. Therefore, the color mode for gaming is mainly a matter of taste since there is no way to calibrate the monitor in the way that the developer has intended. Some games may be calibrated at 6500K but it impossible to know unless the developer confirms it.

 

[limitedaccess]

It does looke better, Because the quality of the light produced by LED's is far better than the fluorescent light, Better on the eyes. so you perceive it better.

If you are thinking in terms of LED lighting versus CFL lighting, this is somewhat debatable. However in terms of implementation as a back light for a LCD monitor (which are not actually even white LEDs, but use phosphor) it is not the determining aspect of color accuracy.

I don't think Windows is color-managed (could be different nowadays but I haven't researched it lately)

Windows 7 itself is actually color managed and has "deep color" (10 bit) support. But yes games for the most part are not.

I own high quality colorimeter (Chroma 5) and I would not say that colors are more accurate on LED than CCFL. LED current implementation for computer monitors has only a few benefits such as lower power consumption and slimmer design. LED does not necessary translate into higher image quality.

TVs have some implementations of LEDs that have not made its way to computer monitors, LED arrays and RGB LED Arrays.

 

[Serpico]

simple and logical go LED.

i've had the same screen as you and can fully understand what your saying.. ive only worked with 4 LED screens so far but color is just so much better all around

LED shouldn't make much of a difference at all in terms of color accuracy. The main practical difference is time to warm up. CCFL can take up to 20 minutes to warm up if it hasn't been on for a while, while an LED is up at full brightness and color reproduction instantly.

Some of the most color accurate monitors out there are CCFL, not LED, monitors like the pro NEC line that are "flatter", natural, and are the farthest thing from being oversaturated.

Having good color profiles and whether or not a monitor is wide-gamut (and if you can disable that) makes a much larger difference than the kind of backlight it is using. I have a CCFL backlit NEC and an LED backlit iMac display side by side, both IPS, and I have the colors quite close to each other. The NEC is softer, more natural, and better for color correction, but you definitely pay the price for those.

I don't think Windows is color-managed (could be different nowadays but I haven't researched it lately), so everything is screwy on a high gamut display because it assumes sRGB. I'm pretty sure games are designed with sRGB in mind too, so there probably isn't a real increase in colors anyway. What you're seeing is an sRGB workspace displayed on a monitor that assumes Adobe RGB. Color-managed workspaces is where it matters, like in Photoshop. You can open a picture with any colorspace there and it'll look fine because PS will convert/output it to your monitor's space on the fly.

One way to "see" what a screwed up colorspace looks like is by opening an sRGB photo in PS, and set it to assume something else, like Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB. It'll look waaay off.

Not every application uses the same color profile, that is the main problem. Excellent rundown of what the issues are, thanks.

 

[LuminaryJanitor]

Windows 7 itself is actually color managed and has "deep color" (10 bit) support.

I know the OS supports colour management, and some MS programs (at least the picture viewer and Office, from what I've heard) actually use it, but I'm pretty sure the GUI itself doesn't; my background and icons are as oversaturated as any of my games.


Anyway, another question: What makes a good sRGB emulation mode? Visually, what separates a good one from a bad one? And is it influenced by any characteristic of the monitor, or is it all in the embedded software? I'd imagine that > 8 bit support would help; otherwise, I assume you'd be mapping 24-bit sRGB space onto the sRGB subset of your monitor's 24-bit wide-gamut space, which would only leave you with 12 million colours on a 100% NTSC screen.

 

[abeztoz]

WOW amazing he plays on 21 crt with gtx 580 where are you from??? usa???


if you dont like we can exchange, you will send me this 30" and i will sand you my 3 years old 24" benq lcd it got fantastic colors ok? deal?

 

[LuminaryJanitor]

WOW amazing he plays on 21 crt with gtx 580 where are you from??? usa???

if you dont like we can exchange, you will send me this 30" and i will sand you my 3 years old 24" benq lcd it got fantastic colors ok? deal?

Pfft, my CRT is higher res than that

 

[BallerX]

Honestly, I think the you either just got a Lemon that has actual hardware problems or, you have the mode stuck in Cinema or some thing.

Of course My ASUS 24" has no kind of problems like this and every color is fully adjustable. What you describe is what this monitor looks like when you put it in the theater mode.

What patterns are you using for making adjustments?

Can you see all the individual grays in the pluge pattern?

You should be able to see separate shades of gray all the way down to 0 as black and up to 255 as white. If you find you are only getting 16-235ish, you may have a defective monitor.

Forget changing the individual color controls unless you have a device that can make accurate measurements.

 

[Yoshiyuki Blade]

Anyway, another question: What makes a good sRGB emulation mode? Visually, what separates a good one from a bad one? And is it influenced by any characteristic of the monitor, or is it all in the embedded software? I'd imagine that > 8 bit support would help; otherwise, I assume you'd be mapping 24-bit sRGB space onto the sRGB subset of your monitor's 24-bit wide-gamut space, which would only leave you with 12 million colours on a 100% NTSC screen.

I'm not quite sure I read the question properly but I'll give it a shot. I guess the best way to know if the emulation is good is if it can be calibrated (through hardware) to a high degree of accuracy. tftcentral does several tests on this with the LaCie BlueEye software and a hardware spectrophotometer. It gives detailed reports of the monitor's color range by superimposing a triangle on the CIE "horseshoe" diagram of the human visual capabilities and a standard colorspace (sRGB and Adobe RGB).

A high gamut monitor, that can emulate sRGB well, will have a triangle as close to the sRGB triangle as possible. Likewise, the high gamut mode should have a triangle comparable to Adobe RGB's triangle. Furthermore, it should be able to reproduce colors to the known standards with a small delta. The lower the delta, the closer it represents the standard.

Monitor calibration isn't incredibly important for games, but it's pretty much a must for anyone involved in photography. Not only does calibration adjust the colors/gamma to a known standard, it also profiles it. That way the computer will know what the difference is. If you try to do this by eye, fiddling with the monitor's OSD settings or video card settings, the computer will have no clue what you're looking at without a proper profile.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

why not load the correct color profile in windows for your montor? Having the right color profile in windows will help you immensely

 

[Digital Viper-X-]

I'll look for the article i read about sRGB on the lp3065

oops, nvm, no sRGB emulation on the 3065

 

[TheGreySpectre]

simple and logical go LED.

i've had the same screen as you and can fully understand what your saying.. ive only worked with 4 LED screens so far but color is just so much better all around

The options for 2560x1600 30" displays are rather limited. I have yet to see any 30" LED monitors.

 

[Yoshiyuki Blade]

why not load the correct color profile in windows for your montor? Having the right color profile in windows will help you immensely

Windows (or rather, the monitor manufacturer) only has "canned" profiles for the monitor, which is obviously not good. A proper profile that accounts for all the color and gamma adjustments you've done is incredibly important when doing color-sensitive work. Same with printers, there's canned profiles for the manufacturer's brand of paper as well as generic profiles. Good paper companies provide hundreds of custom profiles for their paper, for specific printer models. Probably not quite as accurate as a 100% personal custom profile, but very close because of how many controlled variables there are (printer model, genuine ink and paper should all be relatively consistent).

Monitors are more complicated because, not only do the settings have to be identical, there also needs to be software to adjust the gamma through the video card at every startup. Not to mention that there are several preferences in luminance, color temperature and gamma point (the popular standard for LCDs being 120 cd/m^2 luminance, 6500K white point and 2.2 gamma.)

 

[verylostindeed]

To the OP, there is no solution to this, I'm sorry to say. If you're sensitive to this, you need to stick with standard gamut displays, and those are becoming more rare to boot.

 

[Digital Viper-X-]

Windows (or rather, the monitor manufacturer) only has "canned" profiles for the monitor, which is obviously not good. A proper profile that accounts for all the color and gamma adjustments you've done is incredibly important when doing color-sensitive work. Same with printers, there's canned profiles for the manufacturer's brand of paper as well as generic profiles. Good paper companies provide hundreds of custom profiles for their paper, for specific printer models. Probably not quite as accurate as a 100% personal custom profile, but very close because of how many controlled variables there are (printer model, genuine ink and paper should all be relatively consistent).

Monitors are more complicated because, not only do the settings have to be identical, there also needs to be software to adjust the gamma through the video card at every startup. Not to mention that there are several preferences in luminance, color temperature and gamma point (the popular standard for LCDs being 120 cd/m^2 luminance, 6500K white point and 2.2 gamma.)

his problem in this instance is not colour accuracy, but over-saturated colours in games

 

[Spare-Flair]

his problem in this instance is not colour accuracy, but over-saturated colours in games

Then adjust color saturation on his graphics card directly.

For Nvidia, it's called "Digital Vibrancy" under desktop color settings and for ATI, it's under the individual display inside CCC under color and called "Saturation"

Fortunately, my HP w2207h (a bit long in tooth but still one of the best monitors I've ever owned) has several selectable modes and color temperatures and also has a wide gamut on and off gaming mode.

 

[TheSmJ]

ATI's 11.x drivers have the ability to set the colors for a wide gamut display based on the information the monitor reports to the computer. It's set in the color adjustment section of the Cat Control Center (I don't have the system in front of me at the moment, so that's the best way I can describe its location).

By checking a box labeled "Use monitor EDID". This sets the driver to use a wide gamut color palette (assuming that's what the monitor's controller hardware reports). This is handy for those with multiple monitors, since you can set each monitor to use a different color profile, whereas the Windows 7's built in color management profile can only use one profile for all monitors connected.

 

[Forceman]

ATI's 11.x drivers have the ability to set the colors for a wide gamut display based on the information the monitor reports to the computer. It's set in the color adjustment section of the Cat Control Center (I don't have the system in front of me at the moment, so that's the best way I can describe its location).

By checking a box labeled "Use monitor EDID". This sets the driver to use a wide gamut color palette (assuming that's what the monitor's controller hardware reports). This is handy for those with multiple monitors, since you can set each monitor to use a different color profile, whereas the Windows 7's built in color management profile can only use one profile for all monitors connected.

Would this help with games though, since they are unlikely to be color-managed. Unless something has changed recently, individual apps need to be color-managed as well as the OS/driver.

 

[Yoshiyuki Blade]

his problem in this instance is not colour accuracy, but over-saturated colours in games

That's a problem with color accuracy, isn't it? But yeah, in the case of gaming, a profile isn't really important or relevant to what you see with your eyes. However, if you at least want accurate colors for gaming, a calibrated monitor with a good sRGB mode is the way to go, which of course will also be profiled properly in the process. Simply picking a canned profile will show no visible difference in the monitor's output, but can really screw up in places where it matters (color printing, for instance). Or one could be satisfied with just having an uncalibrated sRGB mode... whatever works for him.

 

[TheSmJ]

Would this help with games though, since they are unlikely to be color-managed. Unless something has changed recently, individual apps need to be color-managed as well as the OS/driver.

Yes, these drivers will help the games display properly (along with all other applications). As I understand it, that was part of the reason why it was considered such a big deal when the feature was first announced.

 

[dderidex]

Yes, these drivers will help the games display properly (along with all other applications). As I understand it, that was part of the reason why it was considered such a big deal when the feature was first announced.

Well, two things:

• EDID isn't a new feature for Color Management for ATI. It's been around since at least the Catalyst 4.x drivers back in 2004. Are you maybe thinking of something else?
• EDID is also broke at the moment, and has been for many, many months

 

[LuminaryJanitor]

Honestly, I think the you either just got a Lemon that has actual hardware problems or, you have the mode stuck in Cinema or some thing.
...
What patterns are you using for making adjustments?

Can you see all the individual grays in the pluge pattern?

Like I said, there are no settings at all. I don't think it's defective, since tagged images seem to show up fine in Firefox. I've mostly tried the patterns here, and can generally get them to come up right, but games still look like shit. Doesn't help that half of them ignore the nVidia driver settings.

Then adjust color saturation on his graphics card directly.

The saturation is just a symptom. Yes, I can turn it down, but by the time I get rid of the over-the-top colours, the rest of them are practically greyscale, plus the resulting image is too dim and still too high in contrast. But fixing any of these just seems to bring up another issue. Like I said in the first post, I went round and round like this for hours before I suspected something was up (I mean, by then I should have accidentally stumbled upon something reasonable...).

 

[Yoshiyuki Blade]

Yep, firefox happens to be a color-managed application, so pictures/graphics with embedded profiles should show up fine. IE9 is too, but last I checked (in the beta) it was screwed up in some way.