Grand Theft Auto 4 PC Uses SecuROM DRM

Now that most USB sticks are selling dirt cheap, what prevents companies from charging that little extra to have a dongle instead of some crappy invasive and intrusive piracy protection program???
Dongles: even most renowned software companies rely on it to protect their software. Why can't publishers???
 
I already bought the Xbox 360 version on launch day. It'd be nice if there were a way that you could obtain another version of the media at developer cost (like $2 to press a disc).
 
this is what is killing PC gaming for me. Lots of good games for it but its all infested with DRM bullshit.
 
this is what is killing PC gaming for me. Lots of good games for it but its all infested with DRM bullshit.

oh yeah and when i bought GTA IV for the 360 I thought "maybe i should wait for the pc version" figured it wouldnt be worth it since more than likely it would be infected with DRM
 
Yah, be happy to say that until you have some of the serious problems people have had with games they paid for due to the DRM.
IMO the problems people have are mythical problems they make up so they have a reason to complain about DRM. Gamers need to stop crying about DRM. If you don't like it do something about it but chances are there's not a single person on this forum who hasn't pirated a game, song, or movie at some point in time. Of course they'll come out of the woodwork now that I said that but lets face it, they're lying and they know it. Guys like CodeX who complain about pirating yet rip off Nintendo by coding their own version of old copywritten games that they don't own the rights to. If you don't like DRM you have nobody to blame but yourselves people. Everybody has an excuse for pirating and why it's not wrong in their particular case but when they have to deal with the repercussions they bitch and moan like children. If you don't like SecuROM games stop complaining and don't buy them, nobody is forcing you to. Game companies will get the hint when people stop buying those games but people obviously don't care and buy them.
 
Game companies will get the hint when people stop buying those games but people obviously don't care and buy them.

That's where you're wrong. They won't say "Well gee I guess SecuROM is the reason this game didn't sell well." They'll say "Wow, this game sold like crap, let's can the franchise because storyline/gameplay/XYZ is bad."

Furthermore, SPORE was one of the few games where there was significant public outcry (not passive non-purchasing) and it actually made a difference in how DRM was applied. So, yeah, people should complain if they don't like it, as not purchasing it will not get the point across.
 
Securom. The MIR of the copy protection industry.

Really? Why are you being so nice?

IMO the problems people have are mythical problems they make up so they have a reason to complain about DRM. Gamers need to stop crying about DRM. If you don't like it do something about it but chances are there's not a single person on this forum who hasn't pirated a game, song, or movie at some point in time. Of course they'll come out of the woodwork now that I said that but lets face it, they're lying and they know it. Guys like CodeX who complain about pirating yet rip off Nintendo by coding their own version of old copywritten games that they don't own the rights to. If you don't like DRM you have nobody to blame but yourselves people. Everybody has an excuse for pirating and why it's not wrong in their particular case but when they have to deal with the repercussions they bitch and moan like children. If you don't like SecuROM games stop complaining and don't buy them, nobody is forcing you to. Game companies will get the hint when people stop buying those games but people obviously don't care and buy them.

And they'll stop making PC games alltogether because the shareholders and/or publishers I don't think will ever allow games to go out with DRM. Here's to praying that id's RAGE won't have SecuROM on it (but with EA publishing it, you can BET on it).
 
I just don't like having a disk in the drive so I usually download a cracked .exe or fixed image for my games. Not really a big deal, if I have the activation limit, It took me all of three seconds to find a crack for that.

I think you guys are making this into way too big of a deal. I don't love DRM but I'm not going to NOT buy a good game because of it (I won't be buying GTA4 anyways because IMHO it's a stupid game and I just hate crime games).
 
And how does copy-protection scare away legit customers?

By verifying that the person who is playing the game actually spent their hard-earned money on the title and has a legit copy of it?

Lets just say that I'm the demographic that the industry drools over. I'm a professional with lots of disposable income; I'm willing to make impulse buys; I don't sell my games; and I hardly ever buy used. When I'm in the mood for something new, I'll walk into the store and spend a hundred or two on some new titles to see if I can get something to captivate me for a while.

However,

I didn't buy Bioshock because of nasty DRM.
I didn't buy MEPC because of nasty DRM.
I didn't buy Spore because of nasty DRM.

At this point, pretty much any EA released title I won't purchase.

But hey, if you like to pay purchase price for a lease of unknown duration, go for it.
Personally if I pay purchase price I expect to purchase something.
 
I just don't like having a disk in the drive so I usually download a cracked .exe or fixed image for my games. Not really a big deal, if I have the activation limit, It took me all of three seconds to find a crack for that.

I think you guys are making this into way too big of a deal. I don't love DRM but I'm not going to NOT buy a good game because of it (I won't be buying GTA4 anyways because IMHO it's a stupid game and I just hate crime games).
They need to find a better way or do away with it all together. I hate the sound of the DVD drive spinning up, I avoid using that thing unless it's to install a piece of software or burn a disc. I find it irritating that I need to keep a disc in the drive after I've installed 5+ gigs of data onto my hard drive, entered a key, possibly activated the software AND there's possibly hidden copy protection software on my computer to validate the CD/DVD during each launch which in some cases takes forever.

More and more games are becoming available on Steam, I use that for most of my game purchases, although I think the pricing needs to be adjusted by a few bucks (lower of course).
 
I still remember the top-down pac-man style GTA from the start and that was killer. Blazin' the 4-0 and mowing down pedestrians...

Not really fond of the next-gen iterations however...
 
no edit...
I haven't played GTA through and through since the original consol game anyways. but the squirts I have done were lame...
 
Damn, I sold my PS3 version so I could buy the PC version and now this? Forget it. Why do they make it harder for me to pay them?
 
If you buy a used game, that's PIRACY.
If you buy a new game at a discount, that's PIRACY.
If you use a crack to get your legit copy running, that's PIRACY.
If you don't spend $40 on launch day for horse-armor-esque DLC, that prevents the poor billionaire publishers from making more money and that's also PIRACY.
If you disagree with $59.99 game rentals that may take hours on the phone to get running, you are a PIRATE.
If you object to having a poorly written rootkit mangle your pristine gaming machine, you are a PIRATE.

I won't be buying this garbage. Whatever happened to games like Half-Life where the devs encouraged the modding community instead of screaming from the tallest hilltop about OMFG PIRACY KILLING THE INDUSTRY?
 
And how does copy-protection scare away legit customers?

By verifying that the person who is playing the game actually spent their hard-earned money on the title and has a legit copy of it?

I can only speak for myself, but I sure didn't buy Spore. It's DRM and install limit made me avoid it, and it was a game I was strongly considering until then.

And no, I didn't pirate it either.

I guess to be accurate, copy protection that I feel is fair to the legit customer won't scare me away. Copy protection that I feel punishes the legit customer somehow I will avoid. Even with titles I might consider.
 
lol.. their target audience are people that are taking a fantasy out of thievery then wondering why their product is 'stolen'... lawl...
 
This time I understand it, their focus is preventing breaking of the releasedate and testing this deteriorating gameplay method, first time I see it since Operation Flashpoint which I remember received a few "this game sucks I can't aim for shit" reviews.

I'm buying this on Steam because they're smart enough to jump past the limited installs hurdle and the PC version GTAs are always the best. Time to live out my eastern-european new york cab driver fantasies.
 
You're right. There's nothing scary about copy-protection. There are annoyances that can be avoided by downloading cracked versions. "Scare" is the wrong word to use.

However, copy-protection makes pirated versions of games more appealing than legitimate ones. I don't need a CD in the drive, I don't need to worry about contacting CS should I reinstall my OS, I don't need to worry about hidden processes running on my computer, etc. The free copy I can get online is better than the $50 copy I can buy at the store. Not scary, just not right.

Well in some cases, e.g. Spore, it can truly scare away customers because of the limited number of installs. Who wants to pay $60 for a game only to find they didn't really buy a license to use it, they only rented the game for a limited time?
Also for a while after the rootkit scandal with audio CD's, I was actually afraid of inserting an audio CD into my computer because it might install a rootkit and make my system vulnerable to trojans etc.

But yeah, scare might be a too powerful word. But copy protection definitely makes the pirated version more appealing for alot of people who would otherwise have bought a legit copy.

The last time I was a victim of overzealous copy protection was with the game "Two Worlds". After three reinstalls (which I quickly used up from one videocard upgrade, a switch from XP to Vista and then to 64-bit Vista), I was expected to make a long-distance call to Germany and beg on my bare knees for more activations. I kept calling and calling but no one ever answered. In the end I had to "fix" the game myself, even though I owned a legit copy. Thus, I have decided to not buy (or play) the sequel they're working on. They treated me like a criminal. I'm not going to just accept that and give them more of my money. Maybe if their CEO apologizes to me directly... :p
 
Another game that I will be adding to my "Never buy in a million years" list, quite possibly another software house as well if they keep it up.
 
That's not the point.

The point is, there are ways to add value to legitimacy and there ways to take value away from it. Publishers seem hell bent on removing value instead of adding it. The pirated version is more valuable to the consumer than the legitimate version. The 256kb/s MP3 version of My Morning Jacket's Z I downloaded before buying the CD was more valuable than the CD I purchased. Why? Because the CD wouldn't allow me to rip the songs to my Hard Drive, preferring to install a Sony rootkit and offering crappy 128kb versions instead.

DRM/copy-protection shows contempt for your customer. Whether or not it protects revenue streams doesn't matter to the consumer. The consumer just feels like a criminal. If that's the goal, it works. If the goal is to create a fanbase who trusts you to deliver products that give them consistently pleasant experiences, it falls short. It's getting better. Most SecuROM implementations aren't all that bad (still hate having to put the CDs in my drive when the entire game is already on my hard drive), but some still give PC games bad mojo (Spore, for example).

That is the major problem with DRM. I'd imagine if PC gaming were to die (not that it would, but that's a different discussion), I think DRM could single-handily do it by destroying the very community that supports the game makers.
 
Damn it!

What a bad time to bring this up too. I was excited about picking up my pre-order next week. Now I have to figure out what other game to put the money towards.
 
Spore sold over 1 million copies in less than a month, and that was with the "draconian" you can only install 3 times bullshit. Some how I think game developers really don't give a flying fuck what those 'in the know' care about copy protection.
 
I found this over at the Tomb Raider forums.

Posted by Jaywalker:

Securom has an uninstall built into it..

not a long step as people think.. goto command prompt, browse to folder where game exe is, type "game.exe /uninstall" voila a dialog box appears saying it will remove any drm related to Securom - NOTE this is available on ANY encrypted Securom exe, even if it has no DRM set in it, its a global uninstaller.

also note. Securom DISC check does NOT do anything DRM.. DRM means DIGITAL rights, ie a digital file is stored to prove your legitimacy, if its a disc check only theres no DIGITAL rights recorded or required as the disc is the check.

I dont get DRM and disc checked mixed up.. i've been working in the market for 13 years i do know the difference

Underworld does use SecuROM which honestly doesn't get me angry since it only does a CD check. Wonder if this will work for all SecuROM games. I'm not sure which methods the Crysis games use but Crysis and Warhead randomly shut my PC off unless I use a CD crack. I'm curious is this has to do with Daemon Tools being installed on my PC.
 
Spore sold over 1 million copies in less than a month, and that was with the "draconian" you can only install 3 times bullshit. Some how I think game developers really don't give a flying fuck what those 'in the know' care about copy protection.

It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is now. Gaming is more mainstream, so developers are working at selling to the ignorant masses for lots of cash; the gaming community is now nothing more than sheep with money in the eyes of the publishers.

I doubt all these draconian DRM schemes would have flown years ago when gaming was more 'hardcore' (so to speak) and the community actually mattered.

Forgive me if I'm sounding overly dramatic; but the direction that the PC gaming industry is heading in is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
 
Spore sold over 1 million copies in less than a month, and that was with the "draconian" you can only install 3 times bullshit. Some how I think game developers really don't give a flying fuck what those 'in the know' care about copy protection.

So, if without the draconian DRM, spore would have sold 1.2 million copies over the same time span... they don't care about an extra 200k copies sold at $50 each?

I dunno what world you're living in, but it isn't the same one that I do.
 
This time I understand it, their focus is preventing breaking of the releasedate and testing this deteriorating gameplay method, first time I see it since Operation Flashpoint which I remember received a few "this game sucks I can't aim for shit" reviews.

I'm buying this on Steam because they're smart enough to jump past the limited installs hurdle and the PC version GTAs are always the best. Time to live out my eastern-european new york cab driver fantasies.

As long as it's protection measures are solely local, i.e., no reliance on servers that may or may not be there a few years down the road, I'll buy it as well.

However, if it relies on servers that may not be there when I go to install 5 years from now...well... then I'm leasing it and not purchasing it. And I don't go for that.
 
...Little Johnny game cracker may not know that the deterioration of the game play is a "feature" of the DRM and assume it's a poorly written game. Then he goes and tells two friends that the game is buggy and sucks.. Then they tell two friends, and so on, and so on.. (Wayne's World reference..) Now you have a bunch of people who think that the game is buggy and doesn't work all because the original person had a cracked copy and the DRM made is unplayable. So they don't buy it.

I wonder..
Yea, I was thinking the same thing. I wonder if this point was made during their round table discussion on this.

IMO the problems people have are mythical problems they make up so they have a reason to complain about DRM. Gamers need to stop crying about DRM. If you don't like it do something about it but chances are there's not a single person on this forum who hasn't pirated a game, song, or movie at some point in time. Of course they'll come out of the woodwork now that I said that but lets face it, they're lying and they know it. Guys like CodeX who complain about pirating yet rip off Nintendo by coding their own version of old copywritten games that they don't own the rights to. If you don't like DRM you have nobody to blame but yourselves people. Everybody has an excuse for pirating and why it's not wrong in their particular case but when they have to deal with the repercussions they bitch and moan like children. If you don't like SecuROM games stop complaining and don't buy them, nobody is forcing you to. Game companies will get the hint when people stop buying those games but people obviously don't care and buy them.
Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. This is an age old statistical rule. Open your eyes, read the posts just on this forum like jimmy's...

I have stopped buying them, now explain to me why I have to stop complaining?

I still remember the top-down pac-man style GTA from the start and that was killer. Blazin' the 4-0 and mowing down pedestrians...

Not really fond of the next-gen iterations however...
I remeber them too, but I never played the story missions like I do in the next-gen versions. Plus GTA1 doesn't scale too well on my 42" plasma
, heh. ;)

That is the major problem with DRM. I'd imagine if PC gaming were to die (not that it would, but that's a different discussion), I think DRM could single-handily do it by destroying the very community that supports the game makers.
I feel the same way. It's amazing that this trial and error process of handling piracy is taking so long and being done so poorly still.

Spore sold over 1 million copies in less than a month, and that was with the "draconian" you can only install 3 times bullshit. Some how I think game developers really don't give a flying fuck what those 'in the know' care about copy protection.
Good point....
So, if without the draconian DRM, spore would have sold 1.2 million copies over the same time span... they don't care about an extra 200k copies sold at $50 each?

I dunno what world you're living in, but it isn't the same one that I do.
Good point also...
 
Its probably been mentioned but I still find it hilarius that a game company that promotes breaking the law and havoc is trying to prevent copying of their stuff. Gotta love it.
 
Now that most USB sticks are selling dirt cheap, what prevents companies from charging that little extra to have a dongle instead of some crappy invasive and intrusive piracy protection program???
Dongles: even most renowned software companies rely on it to protect their software. Why can't publishers???

If you lose the dongle, you lose the game. That may not matter for me, because I don't head off to a bunch of lanparties, but if you do, how would you like it if you lost your games because you lost your dongle? Alternatively, how would you like to have to haul around a dongle for each game?

Search wavelab dongle and read the complaints. Wavelab is expensive and has a limited market. Losing game dongles would be a much bigger problem.

I already bought the Xbox 360 version on launch day. It'd be nice if there were a way that you could obtain another version of the media at developer cost (like $2 to press a disc).

I could be wrong, but I believe that most platforms use separate code bases/developers. Certainly there's some common code, but I suspect there's a significant amount of work put into each version, and that cost is greater than the cost of the media.

IMO the problems people have are mythical problems they make up so they have a reason to complain about DRM. Gamers need to stop crying about DRM. If you don't like it do something about it but chances are there's not a single person on this forum who hasn't pirated a game, song, or movie at some point in time. Of course they'll come out of the woodwork now that I said that but lets face it, they're lying and they know it. Guys like CodeX who complain about pirating yet rip off Nintendo by coding their own version of old copywritten games that they don't own the rights to. If you don't like DRM you have nobody to blame but yourselves people. Everybody has an excuse for pirating and why it's not wrong in their particular case but when they have to deal with the repercussions they bitch and moan like children. If you don't like SecuROM games stop complaining and don't buy them, nobody is forcing you to. Game companies will get the hint when people stop buying those games but people obviously don't care and buy them.

The point is that this may cause many not to buy the game. I rarely buy games on day one (I like to let the bugs shake out), but it gives me pause that the DRM stays around after I've uninstalled the game. I'm not sure how it matters if the complainer has or has not pirated a game. We all know that GTA will be pirated. I have no idea if the pirated versions will completely remove Secure Rom or not....I still haven't installed BioShock, because I'm not sure if it's worth the risk. One of these days I'll research the cracks to see if they somehow remove it completely, but i suspect they just bypass whatever checks it does, which is meaningless, since I own the game (though i always get one to remove CD checks....hate spinning drives).

This time I understand it, their focus is preventing breaking of the releasedate and testing this deteriorating gameplay method, first time I see it since Operation Flashpoint which I remember received a few "this game sucks I can't aim for shit" reviews.

I'm buying this on Steam because they're smart enough to jump past the limited installs hurdle and the PC version GTAs are always the best. Time to live out my eastern-european new york cab driver fantasies.

Maybe I misread the article, but as I read it, the steam version will have secure rom included.

As long as it's protection measures are solely local, i.e., no reliance on servers that may or may not be there a few years down the road, I'll buy it as well.

However, if it relies on servers that may not be there when I go to install 5 years from now...well... then I'm leasing it and not purchasing it. And I don't go for that.

So that rules out Steam. Personally, I think that the objections to logging in are less relevant now that virtually everyone has internet access. All i'd want is something in the EULA that guarantees that should they take the authorization servers down, they will issue a patch that allows everyone to continue use the game.

So, if without the draconian DRM, spore would have sold 1.2 million copies over the same time span... they don't care about an extra 200k copies sold at $50 each?

I dunno what world you're living in, but it isn't the same one that I do.

That assumes that 1,000,000 would have bought it. I don't know how quickly it was cracked but if it wasn't day zero, then they may have gained more sales than they lost.

I don't know what the answer is, but I think that what MMOs do is closer to the answer. Give the person a key and let them log in to play it (hopefully with a grace period for those times that the servers or internet access is down).
 
And how does copy-protection scare away legit customers?

By verifying that the person who is playing the game actually spent their hard-earned money on the title and has a legit copy of it?

Because SecuRom has a long history of fucking up systems.

I installed a SecuRom based game on my system back when. (F.E.A.R., if you were wondering) and after a reboot, my system got trapped in an endless BSOD. I restored an install image of WinXP that I had and tried it again. Yep. BSOD Loop.

Swore never to buy any game with SecuRom on it. Haven't bought Bioshock, Spore and now I won't buy this. Period.

So are you just a care troll or honestly naive about why people wouldn't want to install anything with SecuRom on their system? I'm fairly sure it's common knowledge by now that SecuRom remains behind as UNDELETABLE BINARIES AND REGISTRY ENTRIES even after you uninstall the Game.

Or in many cases, even after you uninstall the -Demo.- Yes. Demo. Bioshock was one of those Demos that came with SecuRom. A free download. Coming with copy protection.

Anyone care to explain why that would happen?

Ah yes. Something about trying to destroy the second hand resale market for used games.

So, yeah. As I was saying. Fuck anybody who tries to push SecuRom. I simply won't buy their games.
 
I must be lucky because all the games I've ever played has never had any problems. In fact I didn't even notice it had any sort of protection to speak of, just leave the disk in the drive and you're all set.

I'm sure some people had some problems with various games, but some people also make various edits to their OS and try some experimental stuff that companies can't prepare for. So blaming it completely on the game or the protection isn't fair.

Also, skimming over the replies here, this just seems like a license to steal for some people. Anything to justify themselves? Well here's some news for people; Game companies don't care about pirates. Why change anything for a non-paying customer? Even the highly referenced "Sins of a Solar Empire" game developer said basically the same thing.

The best thing to do is to communicate, not steal. If that means not buying or playing the game, so be it. But pouring gas on the flames by stealing stuff isn't helping 'the cause' at all, it just looks hypocritical and deviant. Why don't people start talking to their senators to pass laws in their states about intrusive copy protection schemes?

I guess we'll just wait to see how the Spore class-action lawsuit goes.
 
I'm not sure which methods the Crysis games use but Crysis and Warhead randomly shut my PC off unless I use a CD crack. I'm curious is this has to do with Daemon Tools being installed on my PC.

Sorry but this made me LOL.

Anyone remember San Andreas PC release? Grant Theft Bay anyone? How many of you have an iso or burned DVD of SA that you didn't pay for?

I'll be getting this one off of steam for sure, unless there's a "special edition" for PC.
 
So that rules out Steam. Personally, I think that the objections to logging in are less relevant now that virtually everyone has internet access. All i'd want is something in the EULA that guarantees that should they take the authorization servers down, they will issue a patch that allows everyone to continue use the game.

The only things I buy through steam are dinky horribly cheap games that I plan to play for a week and never play again. Which so-far has been $10 total spent.

As for the EULA approach, you'd have to cover bankruptcy, etc, as well. For me to purchase a game that hits a server like that I want a guarantee that my purchase won't turn into a lease. I want to see a version of the game that does not require servers placed into an escrow-like account that it setup to be released upon loss of the servers due to them being brought down, company going under, whatever. At that point I'll buy. I don't believe that a company going under is going to be spending it's time and money to release patches for all of it's previously released titles.

That assumes that 1,000,000 would have bought it. I don't know how quickly it was cracked but if it wasn't day zero, then they may have gained more sales than they lost.

I was going off of another posters numbers with the 1 million. As for spore, cracked versions were available BEFORE release...

I don't know what the answer is, but I think that what MMOs do is closer to the answer. Give the person a key and let them log in to play it (hopefully with a grace period for those times that the servers or internet access is down).

See my earlier remarks regarding leasing versus purchasing. This is the case of a lease. An external entity has full control over your ability to legally utilize your purchase. Also, there's nothing stopping rogue servers from popping up.

Note, that I have played MMOs, however, in those cases I'm not purchasing anything. I'm going into it aware that it's a lease, and I'm willign to pay for a lease in that case. The huge problem that I have wiht the current DRM, (and the issue that may get them via a properly setup class action), is that they're selling you a purchase that isn't.
 
R*, I like you and all, but if this interferes with my game playing, I will buy a x360 and be done with PC gaming.
 
I think that the whole DRM thing is a waste to be honest. I mean, yeah, I know what they're trying to do, and I understand that they want to protect their creation, and don't want people stealing it, but there will always be the group of people who are going to pirate the game no matter what, and the group of people that will actually buy the game. Like many others have stated, DRM seems to only affect the people who actually buy the game, as they're the ones that have to deal with it, while the people who pirate don't. In my opinion, I just think that they would sell more without DRM.
 
there will always be the group of people who are going to pirate the game no matter what, and the group of people that will actually buy the game. Like many others have stated, DRM seems to only affect the people who actually buy the game, as they're the ones that have to deal with it, while the people who pirate don't.

Agreed.

CLock3 said:
I mean, yeah, I know what they're trying to do, and I understand that they want to protect their creation, and don't want people stealing it

That's how DRM started out... I don't think that's why it's being done now. Why not? Well, exactly for the reason you stated...

CLock3 said:
Like many others have stated, DRM seems to only affect the people who actually buy the game, as they're the ones that have to deal with it, while the people who pirate don't.

So why do it?

Consider what limited number of hardware installations really does... it kills the resale market. Are you going to want to buy a used PC game that you may get home and install only to find that you have to call a circle of helpdesk drones to get someone to let it activate itself? Or are you going to say screw that, I don't want to risk it, and go buy it new instead?

That's what the new DRM schemes are trying to do. They're trying to erode first sale doctrine via technical rather than legal means.
 
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