HDMI 1.3 and HTPC's.

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ynnek888

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
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So i started reading up on HDMI 1.3.. and notice it supports deeper color bits.. and also able to transmit Dolby TrueHD raw bitstreams.

So looking around on the PC world.. There's no vid card/vid card sound card that supports HDMI 1.3 currently? Therefore it would be impossible to send Dolby TrueHD raw bitstreams over to your reciever if you play a HD disc with Dolby TrueHD on your PC?

well, i guess here's hope that future vidcards will soon support HDMI 1.3, and have a internal digital passthrough that allows you to use your sound card/interface of choosing(which hopefully will support at least TrueHD passthrough, if not also realtime TrueHD encoding for all other sounds, like from games)
 
The new ATI HD 2400 - 2900 cards support the TrueHD and DD+ audio over HDMI. The card carries audio right from the system bus and outputs it over DVI to the HDMI adapter and off to your receiver. Right now that is the ONLY way to do it on the PC so your receiver decodes it native.

Another alternative which will produce pretty much the same results is let PowerDVD do the decoding, then output to your receiver from the soundcard via the Creative Home Theater cables for up to 7.1 surround in TrueHD. They are $15 and can be purchased from Creative's website. Mine are on their way right now. =)
 
Are you sure the hd 2900 supports HDMI 1.3 and TrueHD?

According to ATI, HD 2900:
HDMI output support
*Supports all display resolutions up to 1920x10801
*Integrated HD audio controller with multi-channel (5.1) AC3 support, enabling a plug-and-play cable-less audio solution

But HDMI 1.3 technically supports resolutions higher than tat, and TrueHD supports 8 channels of sound. The specs are unclear if TrueHD is supported as raw bitstream passthrough?
 
Well, here is what it says here..
http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/431/1/
So with the Series 2000 you'll receive a DVI-to HDMI adapter which, and make no mistake here, will carry sound over HDMI. That's unlike current DVI-HDMI adapters and cables which do not carry sound. Fantastic if you are watching a Blu-ray movie, simply connect HDMI to wards your HDTV for PCM sound, or connect it through a TrueHD/Dolby HD receiver and get that sound lovin' going on through that receiver of yours. All with one simple cable.
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There is tons of conflicting info, so I have no clue what is going on.. :p I'd stick with a 8500/8600 nvidia card, then use the Creative Home Theater cables with a good sound card and let the software player & CPU do the TrueHD/DTS-HD decoding. That way you know you'll be able to get the real audio with correct 7.1 surround. (if available on that movie) Keep in mind you'll have to have a 7.1 surround sound receiver with the inputs like this..

txsr605_rear_300.jpg


Here's the cables..

cable.jpg
 
w1retap said:
I'd stick with a 8500/8600 nvidia card, then use the Creative Home Theater cables with a good sound card and let the software player & CPU do the TrueHD/DTS-HD decoding. That way you know you'll be able to get the real audio with correct 7.1 surround. (if available on that movie) Keep in mind you'll have to have a 7.1 surround sound receiver with the inputs like this..

txsr605_rear_300.jpg
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Analog = :rolleyes:

The analog inputs on most receivers are very limited compared to what they can do with what they can do with 5.1 or 7.1 audio via HDMI. On almost all receivers you get no bass management, no time alignment, and no DSP capability (like applying Dolby Prologic IIx to 5.1 audio). HDMI is definitely the way to go.
 
Yea, I already have those cables for my X-Fi, and plan on using that for my gaming system upstairs, when I waterfall my current receiver/speaker combo upstairs, when I eventually completely overhaul my HT setup.

For HTPC however, its gotta be all digital. Sounds like the the PC side of things hasn't gotten it all sorted out yet. (Among other things, like CableCard for example)
Oh well, I can always wait. it'll also give the chance for hw prices to drop, and software to catch up.
 
Umm.. that is just where the inputs for the amp are. Its not doing any decoding or enhancing. That is what the sound card is for on the computer from which you are outputting. ;) I'd rather have high quality analog sound that for sure works with TrueHD than have HDMI audio that might work with TrueHD and might do it properly, and might get 7.1 audio. (speaking in reguards to the PC at the moment. Sorry, there are no other options)
 
w1retap said:
Umm.. that is just where the inputs for the amp are. Its not doing any decoding or enhancing. That is what the sound card is for on the computer from which you are outputting. ;) I'd rather have high quality analog sound that for sure works with TrueHD than have HDMI audio that might work with TrueHD and might do it properly, and might get 7.1 audio. (speaking in reguards to the PC at the moment. Sorry, there are no other options)
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Well... you're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it right. First of all HDMI 1.1 can carry 7.1 audio in far better quality than any analog connection. Ensuring accurate sound by performing bass management and time alignment isn't what I'd consider enhancing. Second, if you can show me a sound card that has full bass management, time alignment (distance settings), and DPL IIx processing for 5.1 audio then we'll talk. Contrary to what you say HDMI audio works. We already know the PC can decode the TrueHD just like it can with the soundblaster. Transmitting it over HDMI is trivial.
 
Stereodude said:
Well... you're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it right. First of all HDMI 1.1 can carry 7.1 audio in far better quality than any analog connection. Ensuring accurate sound by performing bass management and time alignment isn't what I'd consider enhancing. Second, if you can show me a sound card that has full bass management, time alignment (distance settings), and DPL IIx processing for 5.1 audio then we'll talk. Contrary to what you say HDMI audio works. We already know the PC can decode the TrueHD just like it can with the soundblaster. Transmitting it over HDMI is trivial.
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Three questions:

1. Have you done what is being talked about? I would completely understand if you did and didn't use 3rd intermediate apps that support time shifting and bass management. It is okay. I know that software can't do the same things as hardware (not sure which things)...but i'll take your word for it.

2. Do you own a receiver which decodes TrueHD audio from and HDMI source? I mean...I would love to pick one up and replace it over my current 7 channel amp. It is always nicer to have decode done in dedicated hardware. It is okay though...I think I'll like waiting for a receiver to show up. I mean...spending a few $100 over a $20 worth of cables is definately a wise investment.

3. Do you own a video card which has HDMI 1.3 compliant output. Because really...I want one. My preference is one that only draws about 50W. If you could give me the Newegg listing for that item...I would appreciate it greatly.

As for your whole analog = :rolleyes:, I'm sorry...can't even begin to understand that. However...you are entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make it right.
 
Well right now, for my current setup, if I do watch some sort of DVD material from my current HTPC, I simply do digital passthrough to my reciever to decode DD or DTS, which also does all the htings StereDude mentions. Even for normal sounds and music and such on my HTPC, I just do digital out.

On a HT setup, I rather spend the money into a reciever and have it do all the work, and juts have the PC foward the digital signals over. Its makes sense because you'll be hooking up other devices that you probably want to be to just send the signal out decode in the receiver too.

I'm not going to build another HTPC, until CableCard, HDMI 1.3, TrueHD, and all the software, formats, and DRM madness figures itself out.

What I'm really hoping, when everything is figured out, is to eventually build an uber HTPC gaming machine. Multicore system, that can record digital cable, play, share, transcode, and stream media, and play the latest vid games on the big screen without skipping a beat.

I bet it'll take another 2 or 3 years.. I guess by then it'll be an 8 core box with 8 gigs of ram, 2 terabytes of HD storage, 500 gigs of flashdrive, a 10850GTX, and a 2 kilowatt PSU running off its own 220 volt house circuit... hidden away next to the water heater.. lol
 
You don't need a receiver that supports HDMI 1.3 to receive uncompressed 7.1 PCM (and you can't have one since none have been released yet). The Bond blu-ray is awesome going uncompressed out of the PS3 to my Denon 3806 through HDMI. As is playing Resistance. I'd actually rather have the uncompressed track then the TrueHD or DTS-HDMA since they don't really offer anything other then a smaller file size and some type of compression.
 
ND40oz said:
You don't need a receiver that supports HDMI 1.3 to receive uncompressed 7.1 PCM (and you can't have one since none have been released yet). The Bond blu-ray is awesome going uncompressed out of the PS3 to my Denon 3806 through HDMI. As is playing Resistance. I'd actually rather have the uncompressed track then the TrueHD or DTS-HDMA since they don't really offer anything other then a smaller file size and some type of compression.
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You are correct ND40oz on pretty much all fronts. My preference is also for uncompressed. However, i'm not sure the movies houses are going to let that happen in the long run....too much money to be lost jerking our chain and using buzzwords. I'm just not sure I can stomach another couple hundred dollars to have for a new receiver that has HDMI inputs that can handle the audio stream. I've been running HTPC directly to amp 2 years now...and I like it better. Maybe someday i'll hear a side by side comparison that will change my mind. Until then...thanks for the info...greatly appreciated.
 
I think you are missing the point. It is still unclear whether the ATI cards even do the TrueHD in 7.1 or not. There are conflicting reports from various sources. The only clear thing is that it will work with analog. 8 independent analog channels. Its used in SACD and other applications before we had the HDMI cable. In the end you are outputting analog anyhow. Software EQ managers and other programs can finely tune audio coming out of the soundcard to where you must have to have superhuman ears to tell the difference. If you are that worried and that much of an audiophile, you wouldn't even be arguing. You would do it the right way and buy a $1000+ standalone HDDVD/Blu-ray player, run a $300 HDMI cable to your multi-thousand dollar receiver, and output it to $50,000 speakers that were setup by a professional that you paid $500 an hour to do.
 
Ah okay.. I just learned a few things about hdmi and the audio various formats and receivers... This link, if its true, pretty much explains it all

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=738511

And in the meantime, I'll just wait for technology in these formats to catch up to level in terms of ease compatibility and ease of use of current SPDIF and DD/DTS digital passthroug is right now.
 
Trepidati0n said:
2. Do you own a receiver which decodes TrueHD audio from and HDMI source? I mean...I would love to pick one up and replace it over my current 7 channel amp. It is always nicer to have decode done in dedicated hardware. It is okay though...I think I'll like waiting for a receiver to show up. I mean...spending a few $100 over a $20 worth of cables is definately a wise investment.
Click to expand...
First of all there are no HDMI 1.3 receivers yet, but that's ok. You don't need an HDMI 1.3 receiver. You only need an HDMI 1.1 receiver. Your PC (or even stand alone HD-DVD player) will decode the TrueHD or DTS-MA to 5.1 / 7.1 PCM and send it to the receiver in full resolution with no loss of quality. It will be bit for bit identical to if the receiver decoded it. Oh, and yes I do have an HDMI 1.2 receiver. And, for the record HDMI cables aren't $100. You can get a 6' HDMI cable for under ~$10 shipped.
 
ND40oz said:
I'd actually rather have the uncompressed track then the TrueHD or DTS-HDMA since they don't really offer anything other then a smaller file size and some type of compression.
Click to expand...
:confused: It's the same audio. Lossless compression (like TrueHD or DTS-MA) will give you the same quality as uncompressed audio, and it takes up a lot less space on the disc so there is more space for special features or higher quality video with higher bitrates. Are you against zip files too?
 
Stereodude said:
First of all there are no HDMI 1.3 receivers yet, but that's ok. You don't need an HDMI 1.3 receiver. You only need an HDMI 1.1 receiver. Your PC (or even stand alone HD-DVD player) will decode the TrueHD or DTS-MA to 5.1 / 7.1 PCM and send it to the receiver in full resolution with no loss of quality. It will be bit for bit identical to if the receiver decoded it. Oh, and yes I do have an HDMI 1.2 receiver. And, for the record HDMI cables aren't $100. You can get a 6' HDMI cable for under ~$10 shipped.
Click to expand...

Stereodude said:
:confused: It's the same audio. Lossless compression (like TrueHD or DTS-MA) will give you the same quality as uncompressed audio, and it takes up a lot less space on the disc so there is more space for special features or higher quality video with higher bitrates. Are you against zip files too?
Click to expand...

Stereodude, you are 100% correct on both comments.

One thing I will point out is that some studios have recorded the Raw PCM tracks at slightly higher dB levels than their TrueHD or DTS-MA counterparts. Sometimes this makes a perceived difference in the sound quality to the user depending on their setup.
 
Stereodude said:
First of all there are no HDMI 1.3 receivers yet, but that's ok. You don't need an HDMI 1.3 receiver. You only need an HDMI 1.1 receiver. Your PC (or even stand alone HD-DVD player) will decode the TrueHD or DTS-MA to 5.1 / 7.1 PCM and send it to the receiver in full resolution with no loss of quality. It will be bit for bit identical to if the receiver decoded it. Oh, and yes I do have an HDMI 1.2 receiver. And, for the record HDMI cables aren't $100. You can get a 6' HDMI cable for under ~$10 shipped.
Click to expand...

I never said I was spending $100 on cables...I said I didn't want to spend $100's on a new receiver that has the right firmware to decode the new formats. My preference is to spend $20 on a few cables and let software do it. I guess I could have worded that sentence better looking back.

Also, making the audio just uncompressed audio greatly simplifies what is needed to produce the desired outcome. I mean...if they can fit Bond on a Blu-Ray disc with an uncompressed 5.1 track, do we really "need" the compression formats?
 
Stereodude said:
:confused: It's the same audio. Lossless compression (like TrueHD or DTS-MA) will give you the same quality as uncompressed audio, and it takes up a lot less space on the disc so there is more space for special features or higher quality video with higher bitrates. Are you against zip files too?
Click to expand...

Theoretically it's the same audio, but I wouldn't put it past the studios to cut corners when they're making the TrueHD or DTS-MA tracks until it becomes more mainstream. And I do like zip files, especially since windows has built in decoding for them now ;)
 
Trepidati0n said:
Also, making the audio just uncompressed audio greatly simplifies what is needed to produce the desired outcome. I mean...if they can fit Bond on a Blu-Ray disc with an uncompressed 5.1 track, do we really "need" the compression formats?
Click to expand...
That all depends if they want to use a dual layer disc or not. If they want to be cheap and use a 25gig disc they don't have space for an uncompressed soundtrack. To me it seems like a no brainer to use lossless compression to save space (an a lot of it).
 
Stereodude said:
That all depends if they want to use a dual layer disc or not. If they want to be cheap and use a 25gig disc they don't have space for an uncompressed soundtrack. To me it seems like a no brainer to use lossless compression to save space (an a lot of it).
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I'm going to agree with you that lossless compression is a good thing. In the case of this argument, the compression is as high as 60% or more. Not bad for losing just a bit of dynamic range.

The question I have though, what is its true value? A decent receiver in the near future with HDMI 1.3 that will support TrueHD/DTS-HD will probably be $500 at the low end. How much do "we, the consumer" get charged between a dual layer and a single layer disc? For a DVD, it is about $0.30. Therefore a HD/BR disc, at most, should be ~$2 more. That means I can buy, at a minimum, 250 BD movies in dual layer format w/ uncompressed audio before it would have been cheaper to have a receiver that supports TrueHD/DTS-HD and can fit the data on a single layer disc.

The other thing that sorta bothers me is I have no doubt that both formats will come out with a "PLUS" version which will force a great many people to buy new receivers to enjoy the "PLUS" splendor or buy expensive receivers which will have firmware updates to handle the new "PLUS".
 
Those Creative cables are for 7.1 (8 channel), not 5.1 (6 channel). :)
 
w1retap said:
Those Creative cables are for 7.1 (8 channel), not 5.1 (6 channel). :)
Click to expand...


its hard to tell, but it looks like those rca jacks in the picture are only 6 inputs though..

is creative just matrixing the extra 2? or maybe its just a bad picture

if that is the case than i can understand where that cable isn't as good as having the 8 discrete channels (but then again, if the source is only 5.1 then it doesn't matter)..
 
Creative's sound cards have the mini jacks built to support 8 discrete channels. Those 3 plugs on the one end have 8 independent channels. 3 on the orange, 3 on the black, 2 on the green.
 
Trepidati0n said:
I'm going to agree with you that lossless compression is a good thing. In the case of this argument, the compression is as high as 60% or more. Not bad for losing just a bit of dynamic range.
Click to expand...
With a 2 channel stereo way file you can save almost 50% and lose nothing. With more channels you can save even more and lose nothing. DD TrueHD and DTS-(HD)MA are both lossless. DD+ and DTS-HD are not.
 
The Creative home theater cable will only work properly at 7.1 with Creative soundcards. At least that's what I've heard. Also, Onkyo is coming out with a full range of new HDMI 1.3 receivers (preorders up right now) that start at $399 IIRC. That is retail so once there is ample supply you probably be able to get a nice 1.3 receiver for well under the $400 mark.
 
Auzentech is building a HDMI 1.3 extension board for the current X-Meridian and is compatible with the coming Prelude. It is said to also support Dolby HD and DTS HD...IIRC..
 
Audioguy said:
Auzentech is building a HDMI 1.3 extension board for the current X-Meridian and is compatible with the coming Prelude. It is said to also support Dolby HD and DTS HD...IIRC..
Click to expand...
But, how does the video get on the cable with the audio? You plug the video card's output into the sound card?
 
From what I have seen the HDMI 1.3 board also has a DVI input for adding the video signal from your GFX card and the board integrates it to the HDMI cable. It's a full solution from what I have read and seen.
 
I just received my Creative Home Theater cables today. They are about 6 feet long. Its not a mess of wires either. They are all stuck together to form one cable. A simple wire tie wrap will do the trick if you have slack. I don't have my receiver yet, so I can't test it out.
 
I'm no expert... have a lot of the same questions but wanted to chime in on the 10% I've learned. When you do your product research, don't focus on HDMI version, instead, focus on the feature (i.e., TrueHD certified). Why? You may get 1.3, but without the feature your looking for (i.e., being able to decode TrueHD). If it's TrueHD certified, it will be HDMI 1.3 by default.

Just like we used to look for the "Dolby Digital" or "THX" stamp, or whatever... just look to see if it's got the TrueHD sticker/stamp, then you'll know it has the feature you want and will be 1.3 by default. Being 1.3 HDMI may not be the same as TrueHD certified, but being TrueHD certified will get you the 1.3 standard.

I'm currently waiting for AMD/Nvidia to badge one of their HDMI motherboards with TrueHD - as soon as they do, my problem is solved.
 
Adding to your point, that is a great way to go about it. I read quite a few "HDMI" labled product coming to market just featured the connector but none of the high resolution audio standards that HDMI can transport. In fact they only offered normal Dolby Digital and DTS, over the HDMI cable no less but no better then current digital standards. So it seem some companies are hoping the name HDMI on their product boxes will help sell more units. If I decide to go HDMI it will be for the high resolution standars you can get out of it. Not for the ease of use one cable brings. I already have that with SPDIF.
 
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