How is WOTLK compared to BC?

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Visec

Limp Gawd
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I quit wow a year ago and swore I was done playing wow permanently. I quit because once 70 I realized the raiding sucked and the arena was just plain retarded (even though some people like it I hated it.)

Lich King is right around the corner and I'm thinking about testing it. My question to beta testers. Is WoTLK just another Burning Crusade, meaning same crap but newer textures, does it offer anything special beyond BC?
 
in WoTLK its alot like BC, where you hit 70 and you do alot of team centered style of gameplay, how ever they drastically scaled down the size you need, the arena's are going to be the same with more dynamic rooms, such as randomizing pilars or moving them during gameplay.

I honestly don't know what you didn't like about hitting 70, if you give us a bit more information as what to compare or hope to get with WoTLK I can definetly give you some yes/no's

also, why did you dislike arena's? did you hate rocket arena style mods for FPS games too?
 
Visec said:
Lich King is right around the corner and I'm thinking about testing it. My question to beta testers. Is WoTLK just another Burning Crusade, meaning same crap but newer textures, does it offer anything special beyond BC?
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If you didn't like BC, you won't like WotLK. Simple as that really.
Nothing has changed other than higher level cap, a hero class (which I still think is retarded), and new zones which are basically like old zones with different textures.

Most all building models were reused, as were most all mob models.
If you are looking for something distinctively new and fundamentally different than BC, then you just won't find it. WotLK isn't about making a new game, it's about giving those who have been grinding BC something else to do that provides the illusion of that they are paying for new content.
 
Thuleman said:
WotLK isn't about making a new game, it's about giving those who have been grinding BC something else to do that provides the illusion of that they are paying for new content.
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What the fuck is that supposed to mean? :mad: What is up with all the people and the angst against WoW and its players?
 
I on the other hand have heard almost the exact opposite from other beta testers in that the game goes back to the more traditional WoW feel before BC.


not a beta tester just what i have heard from many
 
Freezebyte said:
What the fuck is that supposed to mean? :mad: What is up with all the people and the angst against WoW and its players?
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Dude, I play WoW, I currently pay for 3 accounts, and I don't see how WotLK is conceptually different from BC. If you disagree, then please, do point out specifics.

Here is what WotLK brings to the table as I see it:

1. Higher Level Cap
No different than BC, or any other expansion in any other level based MMO. Nothing NEW, conceptually.

2. New Loot
No different than BC, or any other expansion in any other level based MMO. Nothing NEW, conceptually.

3. New Zones
No different than BC, or any other expansion in any other level based MMO. Nothing NEW, conceptually.

4. New Class (Death Knight)
No different than BC (since BC introduced Belfs, yes, race not class, still), or any other expansion in any other level based MMO. Nothing NEW, conceptually, although NEW to WoW.

There is nothing NEW about WotLK that makes the expansion any different than BC. It's more of the same, just in a different wrapper.

Remember, the OP wasn't looking for a continuation of OLD, he was asking "does it offer anything special beyond BC?", and the answer to that question is NO, unless you count the Death Knight as special, which I personally don't because I feel the class is retarded and is only in there as a marketing ploy to make WotLK sell.
 
You also get achievements and more talents. Honestly, I kind of agree. Some people will bitch at how WoW is past its prime, but meh. They are simply adding to the formula that has got them 11million subs. With the expansion, that number is bound to rise. So, I really do not see how WoW is past its prime.

People are like: "WOW is ova, go play WAR, it's soo 1337". Eh, how come WAR keeps on dropping on XFIRE rankings while WOW is just gaining subscriptions? That can be said for most MMO's really. Some are doing well, some are doing bad. However, when you compare the number of active subs in any MMO, WOW will still be on top. Hell, you can combine the sub numbers of most popular MMO's, you still won't get 11 million active subs.

Everybody can bitch all they want at how the game is a waste of life, but people play it. What makes it fun is the addicting factor. You get new armor, new skills, complete quests for better gear, raid for better gear. The formula may sound simple and bland, but it works, that is what majority wants.

Me? I played WoW and got to 65, I stopped for many reasons. I may go back to it sometime in the future, not today though.
 
radiatinglines said:
If they made classic 60 cap servers I'd play on them.
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and what would you do on those servers? I'm honestly curious. You would log in and...what?

Also at the op. What is it that you hated about being 70? it's just like being 60, except your 70, everyone's still doing the same things, just in different locations.

and requiring less people en masse to do said things.

Personally I love the smaller raiding. I like raiding in general, the only thing I didn't like was people. It was nearly impossible to find 40 people that I liked. 25 was more reasonable, 10 is awesome. 10 is completing all the content in the game with just your friends.
 
Thuleman said:
Dude, I play WoW, I currently pay for 3 accounts, and I don't see how WotLK is conceptually different from BC. If you disagree, then please, do point out specifics.
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You came across more as "MMO players, especially WoW people have no lives and justify expanding their "virtual" universe to continue their sad journey of living without a cause" then actually having justifable alibet "personal" reasons for not caring about WOTLK

Such is the easily misinterpreted and miscommunicated world that is the intranet;)
 
is it really worth $40 though? IMO, hell no. no expansion is worth $40.
 
I look at it this way. it took me longer to level from 60-70 (not to mention experiencing the post 70 content) than it does to beat the average 50-60 dollar game I buy.

So while it may be an expansion, it's also got more playtime in it than most full games.
 
]|[ Mar']['in ]|[;1033289018 said:
and what would you do on those servers? I'm honestly curious. You would log in and...what?

Also at the op. What is it that you hated about being 70? it's just like being 60, except your 70, everyone's still doing the same things, just in different locations.

and requiring less people en masse to do said things.

Personally I love the smaller raiding. I like raiding in general, the only thing I didn't like was people. It was nearly impossible to find 40 people that I liked. 25 was more reasonable, 10 is awesome. 10 is completing all the content in the game with just your friends.
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oh, I don't know. I don't think there was anything to do, that's why WoW didn't do very well until BC came out.

:rolleyes:
 
Freezebyte said:
You came across more as "MMO players, especially WoW people have no lives and justify expanding their "virtual" universe to continue their sad journey of living without a cause" then actually having justifable alibet "personal" reasons for not caring about WOTLK

Such is the easily misinterpreted and miscommunicated world that is the intranet;)
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Well, I think everything you wrote up there is true, except that I do care about WotLK, as in; I continue to be a sucker and will pay Blizz $40 and monthly fees.

I honestly do believe that those people who play MMOs, including myself, waste time on entertainment and the instant gratification to be had in there because their real lives are not what those people hoped they would be.

By the same account those people, including myself, don't have the drive to get off their asses and actually change their real lives, so instead they escape into the virtual reality.

I would consider myself upper-middle-class, if I look back at the last 15 years, and consider what could have been had I not spent all the time on UO, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, EVE, and a bunch of other games but instead worked on higher education, professional development, or learning the real world market rather than making virtual currency, I would be way beyond the upper-middle-class.

Alas, I know that what I am doing isn't good for me, but it's easy to not change it, it's significantly harder to just say: Ok, I am done with gaming, and I will be productive instead.

I am like someone else who posted here, I can't game in moderation, it's an all or nothing thing for me.

]|[ Mar']['in ]|[;1033289018 said:
Personally I love the smaller raiding. I like raiding in general, the only thing I didn't like was people. It was nearly impossible to find 40 people that I liked. 25 was more reasonable, 10 is awesome. 10 is completing all the content in the game with just your friends.
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From a business perspective 10 man raids make sense. From a gamers perspective, not so much. The challenge of raiding with 40 (or the nerfed 25), wasn't so much the PvE content, as it was to make the logistics of 40 man raids work.

Efficiently raiding 40 man content was an actual achievement, any monkey can raid 10-man content. It's just further dumbing down the game to the point where there is no true separation between the 99% of retards who play WoW and the 1% of people who actually understand the game mechanics and have the skill and situational awareness to succeed against the AI, or against other players.

That's what's really bugging me about WoW. Any monkey can get the top PvP set gear (oh please, the 2200 needed for shoulders is trivial to achieve if you just understand the game mechanics as well as the social mechanics of the game), and by and large most monkeys can clear SWP.

There is nothing in WoW that sets the truly extraordinary players apart from the mediocre.

Of course creating a game were very few players are able to elevate themselves above the rest isn't good for business...
 
Thuleman said:
By the same account those people, including myself, don't have the drive to get off their asses and actually change their real lives, so instead they escape into the virtual reality.

I would consider myself upper-middle-class, if I look back at the last 15 years, and consider what could have been had I not spent all the time on UO, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, EVE, and a bunch of other games but instead worked on higher education, professional development, or learning the real world market rather than making virtual currency, I would be way beyond the upper-middle-class.

Alas, I know that what I am doing isn't good for me, but it's easy to not change it, it's significantly harder to just say: Ok, I am done with gaming, and I will be productive instead.

I am like someone else who posted here, I can't game in moderation, it's an all or nothing thing for me.
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I guess thats where you and I differ. I play ALOT of games and spent ALOT of time on my PC and 360 but I also balance it with spending time with my cat, my lovely girlfriend *soon to be wife* spend time with my friends when I can *who have kids, major free time killer* as well as get outdoors and do stuff from walking to taking vacations or seeing the family. I'm pretty happy with my career as it stands and I'm pretty healthy all around though im not in sports jock fitness and carry a few extra pounds but im overall pretty happy with my life. I guess I learned from my dad early on "Moderation in all things"
 
Theres too much awsome things that BC added into the game, too bad it essentially turned out to be a grind fest.

To me the arena's are where its at, reminds me of playing old school rocket arena's and team DM's, very eventful and full of smack talk that just makes the game way more fun.
 
Well, as an actual beta tester, I don't see it being much different than TBC. Of course, this is looking from a purely stripped-down, progress-driven, gameplay-driven perspective. I happen to be a gamer that happens to give games merit on everything I see presented. If you don't care about the new music, zones, story, questlines, dungeons, or other touches, I wouldn't recommend WotLK. Endgame will still consist of doing heroic dungeons/raids for PvE, or farming honor/arena for PvP. So, there ya go. :)

From a business perspective 10 man raids make sense. From a gamers perspective, not so much. The challenge of raiding with 40 (or the nerfed 25), wasn't so much the PvE content, as it was to make the logistics of 40 man raids work.
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I have to partially disagree here. A gamer doesn't always crave a fixed level of challenge. The new 10-man raids is what I'm most eager to experience. Why? Because I have almost 10 RL friends to actually raid with. Something like that just isn't feasible right now. Plus, it's going to be a real challenge for our little group (they all have college/work to deal with too). Dungeons and Raids are "tuned" to hit a certain difficulty level, and although it doesn't come with the inherent difficulty of dealing with sheer numbers (like 40 people), it won't necessarily be a cake walk either. Raiding should be meant for players who wanna see content without having it handed to them on a silver platter. Not some chore to deal with the social issues of a mass of people. That being said, it does make perfect sense from a business perspective. I wouldn't be eager to play WotLK if it weren't for this new change. :D

Also, I think ppl who use an MMO as an excuse to escape their reality (and those who use that phenomena as an argument) are just absurd. It's a video game, a form of time-killing entertainment, no matter how "close" to RL it is. And it's about as absurd as a person who uses any game or games to escape reality.
 
I'm letting my account run out and I'm passing on WotLK.

PVP progression is still focused primarily around arenas. It's even more grindtastic with 3 tiers of pvp gear, with the top gear all but unobtainable by 97% of the player base. It's not fun fighting against team composition imbalances, class imbalances, and even more gear discrepancies.

It's a shame really, pvp can be fun in this game. It's fun when there are objectives and I can play with friends. Arenas is simply not fun to me.
 
eurin said:
I'm letting my account run out and I'm passing on WotLK.

PVP progression is still focused primarily around arenas. It's even more grindtastic with 3 tiers of pvp gear, with the top gear all but unobtainable by 97% of the player base. It's not fun fighting against team composition imbalances, class imbalances, and even more gear discrepancies.

It's a shame really, pvp can be fun in this game. It's fun when there are objectives and I can play with friends. Arenas is simply not fun to me.
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To each his own. maybe WAW would suit you now?
 
The first tier of PvP gear is of blue quality, and its not that grindtastic if you do arena. I think 1 week of arena will get you one set piece, even if you're 1500 rated in a 2v2. Seriously, the point cost is 200-300 points or even lower. The honor along with it requires some BG effort though. You also have an option to avoid arena entirely for the blues, but they cost a lot of honor. That will be time consuming.

If the previous seasons are of any indication, the gear sets will trickle down to the lower brackets so the gap won't widen very much. So after season 5 ends, the mid-tier arena gear will be as easy to get as the PvP blues, and the blues might be removed. At the same time, I doubt Blizzard will make it that easy to get, even if WoW has gotten easier over time.
 
I was a beta tester and I'd buy wotlk just for lake wintergrasp

Yes to answer the OP's question it is fundamentally the same game, but it doesn't feel the same as tbc did IMO. Some of the quest designers really went above and beyond
 
I've actually decided to pass on WOTLK. WoW is geting old for me, none of my friends play, and I have more and more responsibilities as times goes on so that leaves me with little play time.
 
The thing I hate most about the new WoW mentality is the focus on "Making WoW a viable e-sport".

First off I could care less about e-sports, because imo it's a joke. Second, I hate seeing everyone wearing the exact same thing everywhere I go. It's shameful to see people enter instances with S2 gear while doing worse or a tad better damage then their pet.

Good thing they are bringing the focus back to battlegrounds - because Warcraft is about massive, epic battles, not about a druid and his paladin buddy outlasting a priest and his warlock buddy.

In short - less focus on arenas and more focus on WARCRAFT.
 
Thats what sucks about noob centered MMO's, gear is all common.. even "rares".

In EQ, uber gear existed. It was scarce. If you had piece of dragon loot you would lay in bed at night drooling my precious. It was unique and no one else had it. but with WoW all gear is trivial. Epics are easy to get so everyone has exactly the same stuff and earning gear doesn't feel rewarding or satisfying.

I can't say I blame them it's a buisness not a fantasy world. If marketing to the mass public and money is all I cared about I'd noob the fuck outa my game too.

But that is why gaming, not just WoW, but PC gaming is going down the shitter it's all about execs forcing deadlines not letting devs finish or create games outside the box they just want to copy previous successes and not risk inventing fresh concepts because profit margine is first.
 
radiatinglines said:
oh, I don't know. I don't think there was anything to do, that's why WoW didn't do very well until BC came out.

:rolleyes:
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Wow did great before and after BC. BC helped them grow more but they where still an insane sucesss even without it.

Visec said:
Thats what sucks about noob centered MMO's, gear is all common.. even "rares".

In EQ, uber gear existed. It was scarce. If you had piece of dragon loot you would lay in bed at night drooling my precious. It was unique and no one else had it. but with WoW all gear is trivial. Epics are easy to get so everyone has exactly the same stuff and earning gear doesn't feel rewarding or satisfying.
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Funny thats the exact reason Wow has been constantly growing and EQ is 6 feet under decaying into nothingness.

Nobody wants to play a game they cant win.
 
I've all but been done with WoW since about April of this year, but WoTLK sparked my interests to see what they were doing so I got a beta key and decided to check it out. While there's a lot of interesting aspects added to the new expansion, there are a lot of the same old grind away features like any MMO has.

Pros:

1. New PvP Zone
2. Classes retuned so hybrids are no longer "gimmick" DPS. They can hold their own in PvP and PvE. Pure DPS classes were also retuned.
3. Achievement system rewards players for stuff they've done in game and will potentially be account based and affect SC2 and Diablo 3.
4. Death Knight brings a new class to play and get use to.
5. Siege Weapons in PvP bring a new dynamic into it.
6. Apparently they're making more raid encounters allow the use of controlled objects rather than just spamming attacks on your character and doing "x" when boss does "y".
7. Inscriptions are a new way to improve your character.
8. Designing raids to be both 10 and 25 man to accommodate hardcore and casual raiders.
9. There's not nearly as much need for specific classes anymore in raids with how they retuned them all.

Cons

1. Once you hit cap it will be the same grind for gear in PvE and PvP aside from the new ways to get it.
2. PvP will more than likely be broken worse than ever from my experience in beta. They are still trying to balance all of the classes together. We've already seen them adjust Ret Paladins.
3. Some racials are still going to competitive PvP lame. I still think they just need to do away with them.
4. Certain classes still bring more to a raid than others.

That's all that I can think of at this time, but that's how I felt about it and I'm still going to stay away from it after trying it. It's all going to depend on if you feel the urge to play it again from the changes that they've made. One thing I'll admit is that you can tell that the devs are learning something from their past experiences, but they just aren't there yet in some cases. WoW is a fun game overall, but it has moved on from its prime from my experience.
 
pfunkman said:
Wow did great before and after BC. BC helped them grow more but they where still an insane sucesss even without it.



Funny thats the exact reason Wow has been constantly growing and EQ is 6 feet under decaying into nothingness.

Nobody wants to play a game they cant win.
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Casuals don't want to play a game they can't win. Casuals are a curse of the MMO industry.
 
# Master the necromantic powers of the Death Knight - World of Warcraft's first Hero class.
great, a new class with more flair then the other classes, but about as new and exciting as every other class before you've lvled them to max and realized their as useful/less as every other class.. ie you'll still get owned in pvp cuz your team refuses to heal you or push with you..

# Quest to level 80, gaining potent new abilities and talents along the way.
waste of time imo.. I do believe in learning how to play your class but grinding to a lvl isn't the only way out there...

# Learn the craft of spell augmentation with the new Inscription profession.
another illusion of complexity... once everyone finds out all the useful inscriptions there'll be a cookie cutter build for every class and it'll be just another boring talent tree

# Brave the harsh new continent of Northrend, the icy domain of the Lich King.
further reducing the will to world pvp for the sake of server bandwidth...

# Engage in epic siege warfare, deploying mighty siege engines to lay waste to destructible buildings in your path.
has some promise as the only useful addition in the exp.. that said, they could easily have put it in a content patch, but of course... money money

# Transform your hero's look with new character-customization options, including new hairstyles and dances.
about 30 minutes worth of coding? if not less? hardly something to brag about.

# Explore perilous new dungeons filled with some of the deadliest creatures -- and greatest treasures -- on Azeroth.
yay... a shitload of pve content that i wont even touch... seriously ive never understood how pve can be considered fun or worth it at all... wow you get to fight some big dragons for gear that wont help you in pvp? if i wanted to play a online game for gear that helps me against computer foes I would have just played a single player game..

# And much, much more...
oh sure... boring holiday events and class balances every few weeks that always strangely unbalances something else for the next one to fix etc.

also I found arena to be very boring having to deal with not being able to beat a certain combo based on your teams one sometimes especially since ive usually only done 2v2/3v3.. so ill prolly rush to lvl 80 and enjoy the siege pvp then end subscription hopefully in under a month... only real reason im still play this drug of a game is cuz most all my friends do and im hoping a future exp will put the war back in warcraft...
 
CryingGod said:
Casuals don't want to play a game they can't win. Casuals are a curse of the MMO industry.
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It's not just MMO's that are affected by mass casuals. PC gaming overall is becoming more and more less fun because of noob catered products. Now days, in-game objectives, beating levels, getting gear, it's practically handed to you because 80% of pc users are low skilled or are just perfectly fine being rewarded for minimum effort.

I can't remember the last time a FPS game challenged me.

I am not a hardcore gamer I play only 10 hours a week, but skill and being rewarded for excelling at games is dissapearing. I remember days of NES SNES older platforms and pre-2002 PC gaming some games were HARD.

The past 5 years of the Biggest Blockbuster PC game titles how many of those actually challenged you.. Today's games practically play themselves.
 
Visec said:
Now days, in-game objectives, beating levels, getting gear, it's practically handed to you because 80% of pc users are low skilled or are just perfectly fine being rewarded for minimum effort.
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In case you hadn't noticed, society is becoming the same way, it goes back to whoever said that whatever society becomes, its entertainment will follow.
 
I was in the beta, and they have made it so that once you reach 80, there are alot more things to do.

New PvP stuff - A new Battleground which is tied as my second favorite (with AV). They also added Wintergrasp which is a Battleground-zone, and let me tell you, it is the funnest PvP experience I've had in WoW. So Wintergrasp ranks as my favorite battleground. Secondly they added a new Arena with all this crazy stuff in it (Arena's aren't my thing so I really don't know the details, nor do I care, but I heard it's supposed to be the funnest one)

So now you have alot more options on the table to do at 80, at least pvp speaking.

As far as PvE - The only thing I really learned off the beta is that it's easier. You can pug a 10 man Naxxramus group. As a casual (at least for now) this is pretty awesome, I like how I can come how from work, start a naxx group, and hopefully win some awesome looking gear. As mentioned before, all raids are 10 manable, no more having to be in a decent guild to go raiding.

The World - Is the best designed yet in my opinion and everything looks stunning. Dalaran, the new city is loads better then shatt. Shatt was a really boring place to be, I typically liked hanging out in SW/IF or Orgrimmar. I can't really describe how cool the new continent looks, it's the "you have to see it" kind of things.

So if your a casual, the expansion will be an orgasm for you. There will be loads of things to do, and lots of way to get flashy gear while having fun.

As for hardcore PvP'ers, this is epic. PvE'ers, not sure, because that's one aspect I didn't explore in the beta.
 
MMO history has shown that players consume content orders of magnitude faster than developers could ever anticipate.

No one disputes that WotLK has new content, but in the end it's finite, and once that content is consumed boredom sets in just as it did when one hit 60, and when one hit 70. There's simply no way around that, and that is true for any and all other games (other than Chess perhaps).

The repetitive nature of gaming can't be avoided. Yes, each BG round is different, but not really, you win or you lose, you get marks and honor which you spend on gear, etc. etc.

IMHO the only way to be able to enjoy any game is to just play it for the moment, without any higher goal in mind. As soon as you play to get some piece of gear, or some irrelevant number of arena or honor points, it's becomes tediously repetitive and boring.

If you are a goal oriented gamer, then there's no way to not get burned out or bored.
 
Now days, in-game objectives, beating levels, getting gear, it's practically handed to you because 80% of pc users are low skilled or are just perfectly fine being rewarded for minimum effort.
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Freezebyte said:
In case you hadn't noticed, society is becoming the same way, it goes back to whoever said that whatever society becomes, its entertainment will follow.
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Just had to stop here to quote it for truth.
ecstatic.gif
 
Thuleman said:
Dude, I play WoW, I currently pay for 3 accounts, and I don't see how WotLK is conceptually different from BC. If you disagree, then please, do point out specifics.

Here is what WotLK brings to the table as I see it:

1. Higher Level Cap
No different than BC, or any other expansion in any other level based MMO. Nothing NEW, conceptually.

2. New Loot
No different than BC, or any other expansion in any other level based MMO. Nothing NEW, conceptually.

3. New Zones
No different than BC, or any other expansion in any other level based MMO. Nothing NEW, conceptually.

4. New Class (Death Knight)
No different than BC (since BC introduced Belfs, yes, race not class, still), or any other expansion in any other level based MMO. Nothing NEW, conceptually, although NEW to WoW.

There is nothing NEW about WotLK that makes the expansion any different than BC. It's more of the same, just in a different wrapper.

Remember, the OP wasn't looking for a continuation of OLD, he was asking "does it offer anything special beyond BC?", and the answer to that question is NO, unless you count the Death Knight as special, which I personally don't because I feel the class is retarded and is only in there as a marketing ploy to make WotLK sell.
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lol please. What a ridiculous and narrow argument. With such an over-reaching definition of terms you can say this about any game that has more than 1 expansion.

What did the OP find fun in WoW? Was it World PvP? Was it crafting professions? Was it large/small scale raiding? Was it questing? Was it 5mans? Of course the game isn't going to offer anything new conceptually because it's a MMO. The expansions don't change the game more than they just shift the playstyles. What is the OP's playstyle?
 
Battlegrounds was fun. The fact every noob wasn't running around in the EXACTLY the same pvp gear was cool like pre-BC.

When BC hit they should have expanded the PVP focus on large scale warfare battles and just built upon that. But instead they dumbdown introduce arena PVP (which is gay for so many reasons) allowing anyone who plays 10 mins a day free epics. Free epics yay. Who doesn't love getting free shit for no effort.

Like I said if marketing to the masses and money is all I cared about I'd noob my shit out too.

After starting this thread I decided fuck wow and lich king. Mainly since (correct me if I'm wrong..) the whole 10 people can raid the same instance as a full 25 raid guild thing seems so fucking out of wack it's not even funny.

Fuck it. Why stop at 10 mans. Just make every raid zone so 2 people can solo it NP.

I mean afterall, Why should killing GODS and killing Dragons require a coordinated group of people. Just fucking make everything soloable. YEAH WOOHOO! thats it! sounds like fucking awesome.

Free shit for everyone blizz style.
 
Battlegrounds was fun. The fact every noob wasn't running around in the EXACTLY the same pvp gear was cool like pre-BC.
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My experience with BGs in pre-BC consisted of the same old queue-ups. When we poorly-geared and randomly-grouped Horde waited for the battle to start, I would check the players in the game. On the Alliance side, I would see several ranks with a golden helmet for an icon, indicating Marshal. Next to the icons were familiar names that I could have sworn I saw the last 10 matches. The battle begins and I find us swarmed by players with full fucking tier 2 PvE gear. Of course, the same guild tags I've always seen are present, and I proceed to wait for a full 5-cap while they camp at our GY farming us. Well after, several games full of losses with the occasional win (when we surprisingly avoid an encounter with a premade), all the honor compiled for the week was tallied in, and I was always still short of ranking up. Which meant that all of my weekly efforts was wasted, as I got literally nothing out of it until I grinded even harder next week. What was I ranking up for? Shitty blue gear that was the next best thing to get from PvP. The epic quality stuff was well beyond my reach and was sadly worse than PvE's best offerings.

I don't know about you, but my experience with Pre-BC PvP was the gayest shit in existence.

Mainly since (correct me if I'm wrong..) the whole 10 people can raid the same instance as a full 25 raid guild thing seems so fucking out of wack it's not even funny.
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You're correct. The gear will be worse, of course. 10-man dungeons will have independant progression paths from the 25-man versions.

Fuck it. Why stop at 10 mans. Just make every raid zone so 2 people can solo it NP.

I mean afterall, Why should killing GODS and killing Dragons require a coordinated group of people. Just fucking make everything soloable. YEAH WOOHOO! thats it! sounds like fucking awesome.
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lol. This is the most classic example of a slippery-slope fallacy.
 
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