This came from the tech sub-forum of a gaming community/clan that I am with. I merely stated that TN panels are cheaper and there is a loss in image quality.
*edit*
I linked to this thread:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1039222
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In defense of a TN panel
- Thread starter dR.Jester
- Start date
This came from the tech sub-forum of a gaming community/clan that I am with. I merely stated that TN panels are cheaper and there is a loss in image quality.
*edit*
I linked to this thread:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1039222
vick1000
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If you want proper ammunition, here is the real problem with TN and games.
Play a dark FPS like STALKER, run up to a corpse in a dark/ semi dark area, then look down at it as if to loot it....BINGO, everything blacks out. It's just like the sphere of darkness on a VA that's in the middle of the screen, but it's a vail draped from top to bottom.
Viewing angles are a misuderstood specification, and misrepresented as well. 178 degrees? Who's going to view their monitor from that angle right? 160 degrees should be enough, right? Well the higher numbers are indicitave of the gamma/ color shift points in the technology.
Honestly, I don't know how people who watch movies and play games on their PCs can enjoy the content on TN or VA. They drove me insane, I could not possibly ignore the flaws.
While IPS has it's own flaws, when viewed directly in front of the panel, it is still the superior technology, most will say response times and contrast ratio (black level).
Response times are blown out of perportion, as are contrast ratios. I have owned a 2ms panel, a 16ms panel, and almost everything in between, and there is little to no difference. The 2ms spec is misleading, there is still as much ghosting in "black to black/ white to white" as with a 16ms panel.
Contrast ratios are totally overstated. All the ratio is is the difference in luminence from the darkest possible black to the brightest white. This does not even take into acount that in order to get the highest white level, you have to raise the brightness to a level you would never use, which in turn raises the black level. Which is why dynamic contrast was invented, so the backlight can be dimmed during dark scenes, to get even more outragous specs.
But as always, the same people that are duped day in and day out by marketing, will thow the specs in your face, ignorant to the true facts of the technology.
Play a dark FPS like STALKER, run up to a corpse in a dark/ semi dark area, then look down at it as if to loot it....BINGO, everything blacks out. It's just like the sphere of darkness on a VA that's in the middle of the screen, but it's a vail draped from top to bottom.
Viewing angles are a misuderstood specification, and misrepresented as well. 178 degrees? Who's going to view their monitor from that angle right? 160 degrees should be enough, right? Well the higher numbers are indicitave of the gamma/ color shift points in the technology.
Honestly, I don't know how people who watch movies and play games on their PCs can enjoy the content on TN or VA. They drove me insane, I could not possibly ignore the flaws.
While IPS has it's own flaws, when viewed directly in front of the panel, it is still the superior technology, most will say response times and contrast ratio (black level).
Response times are blown out of perportion, as are contrast ratios. I have owned a 2ms panel, a 16ms panel, and almost everything in between, and there is little to no difference. The 2ms spec is misleading, there is still as much ghosting in "black to black/ white to white" as with a 16ms panel.
Contrast ratios are totally overstated. All the ratio is is the difference in luminence from the darkest possible black to the brightest white. This does not even take into acount that in order to get the highest white level, you have to raise the brightness to a level you would never use, which in turn raises the black level. Which is why dynamic contrast was invented, so the backlight can be dimmed during dark scenes, to get even more outragous specs.
But as always, the same people that are duped day in and day out by marketing, will thow the specs in your face, ignorant to the true facts of the technology.
If you only play games, then a TN display is perfectly fine. These screens are cheap and made specially for your needs congrats.
IPS is made for professionals, who need the best colors in an LCD. If colors invert like in a TN it is not acceptable for any person that is looking for color accuracy or a precise image.
I will give a perfect example of why TN panels shouldn't be used. I was at the dentist's office and laying down in the chair, while the dentist showed me slides of my teeth x-ray on his laptop. Low and behold it was impossible to make out what the hell was on the screen because the black was white and white became black on the TN panel from the angle on the chair I was laying on. While this was only the dentist, what if it were some hospital where it depended on your life?
Also TN displays cannot be used very comfortably in portrait mode, it was never designed to be used that way but for some reason makers put a swivel on their stands. For my needs I find that TN is not very versatile. IPS and VA are more versatile for doing a lot more than gaming. I still game on my Dell 2005FPW and find that it is comfortable, somehow you get used to the response times.
IPS is made for professionals, who need the best colors in an LCD. If colors invert like in a TN it is not acceptable for any person that is looking for color accuracy or a precise image.
I will give a perfect example of why TN panels shouldn't be used. I was at the dentist's office and laying down in the chair, while the dentist showed me slides of my teeth x-ray on his laptop. Low and behold it was impossible to make out what the hell was on the screen because the black was white and white became black on the TN panel from the angle on the chair I was laying on. While this was only the dentist, what if it were some hospital where it depended on your life?
Also TN displays cannot be used very comfortably in portrait mode, it was never designed to be used that way but for some reason makers put a swivel on their stands. For my needs I find that TN is not very versatile. IPS and VA are more versatile for doing a lot more than gaming. I still game on my Dell 2005FPW and find that it is comfortable, somehow you get used to the response times.
verylostindeed
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This is a seriously overblown post, in my view. Contrary to your assertion, response times and contrast ratios are very real and highly important. To be sure, manufacturer specs are not to be trusted; but that doesn't mean that the technical aspects themselves aren't significant. The fact remains that TN panels are the fastest by quite a large margin, and even more importantly, exhibit by far the least input lag of the three.
IPS panels are great. But they have relatively poor black levels ratios and are prohibitively expensive.
In answer to your question about how anyone could possibly enjoy watching something on a TN or VA panel, here is my response: some people care more about, you know, watching the actual content than obsessing over minor imperfections in color reproduction. You may not be one of those people, but it's senselessly dismissive to think your view is the only one.
some ppl obsess, im unfortunately one of them.
you get spoiled with some things for sure. but when you sit down and go to watch a movie or video or even look at cousin mel's adventure in the congo, its hard not to notice that ppl's that are supposed to have a natural skin tone have a oversaturated bright orange tint and the trees that are supposed to be green are teal etc., kind of get on the nerves a bit.
not to mention the drastic color shifts when you move a couple of inches to the side. really, who sits directly in front of their monitor and doesnt move an inch?i can see TN panels for limited use (office only, imo), but i have to agree with the op when they say watching movies and doing anything on one where color is of any importance is a big no-no.
verylostindeed
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some ppl obsess, im unfortunately one of them.
you get spoiled with some things for sure. but when you sit down and go to watch a movie or video or even look at cousin mel's adventure in the congo, its hard not to notice that ppl's that are supposed to have a natural skin tone have a oversaturated bright orange tint and the trees that are supposed to be green are teal etc., kind of get on the nerves a bit.
i can see TN panels for limited use (office only, imo), but i have to agree with the op when they say watching movies and doing anything on one where color is of any importance is a big no-no.
I just don't get this. When was the last time you used a TN panel? And how old was it? I regularly switch between all three, and I have yet to see a modern TN that turned trees teal, etc.
Maybe the older TN technology was far worse, I'm not sure. Many people and reviewers, including extremetech, which does a fairly objective and rigorous analysis, find that the Gateway FHD2400 has better color fidelity than its xVA counterparts, for instance.
This is why I don't play games on my S-PVA. Its only funny to everyone else when you drive your Porshe into a dark wall thinking it was a tunnel.
Kaldskryke
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Sitting directly in front of my 20" widescreen TN I can detect a slight change in gamma and color towards the top and bottom, even though the backlight is surprisingly uniform.
...but it's never bothered me in the slightest. I don't notice it until I really look for it.
I would happily buy a TN panel again if I I could find one with better black levels. My current panel is driving me crazy. Save me, OLED, you're my only hope.
...but it's never bothered me in the slightest. I don't notice it until I really look for it.
I would happily buy a TN panel again if I I could find one with better black levels. My current panel is driving me crazy. Save me, OLED, you're my only hope.
the best black levels on lcd's are the PVA panels.....
thats why i still have my trusty CRT, the black levels are second to none
bicycle_wreck
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Exactly. I like my TN panel. If someone is happy with what they have, why make it an issue? There is a great deal of panel snobbery everywhere, and not just here on [H]. Pointing out someone's TN based monitor as inferior is a moot point, and unless they are asking for advice on buying a monitor that dog is best left sleeping.
I couldn't disagree more. I wish I had this information back when I bought my S-PVA. Its important that people, especially professionals, know that certain panels may not be suited for their work. Plus I just like bashing other peoples' monitors. TN's totally suck.
vick1000
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So why even buy a LCD to begin with? If you don't care about the quality of the image you are looking at, then buy what ever...I don't care. Watch your movies on a 4" iPod for all I care, my post was directed toward people that care about what they are looking at.
Let me ask you. Where does image quality become important for you? Would a blurry or extremely dithered image be fine with you? How about a movie with horrible interlaced frames coded into it?
Now if I'm watching something not so cinematic, say an episode of South Park or some old TV show, then I might not care as much. But when I'm watching a movie with great cinematic scenes, and great sound, I want to experience the total package. It's why we keep improving technology, to increase our enjoyment. If not, we would all be watching B&W movies, or listening to the radio instead.
So TN is good enough for you....great, but don't try to tell me it's not flawed...at least not MORE flawed than IPS. Sure, IPS has it's flaws too, like I said. CRTs do too.
But differences in response times on a let's say 2005fpw (acurately rated at 16ms) and any 2ms marketed panel, are just isignificant. Now a 25ms panel would be quite different, and those panels were quite useless for motion content. You can look at tests done for response on a 16ms IPS, compared to a 2ms TN, and there is practically no visual difference. Now of course panels are only as good as the processor driving them (the guts of the monitor), so any panel can be made to ghost severly with shoddy electronics and/or firmware.
VA and IPS are by far superior to TN. It's just that at this point the TN panels have caught to the low end VA and IPS(The Dell's and the Samsungs). If you want the cream of the crop of LCD's check out the Sharp LC-32GP3U thread. Sharp makes the best VA LCD's on the market, and I think it is THE most balanced LCD(gaming, color accuracy, contrast) but also one of the most expensive.
verylostindeed
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That's just the point, if you cared so much about image quality, you'd get a CRT. Every LCD is flawed in comparison, period. And they're all flawed in different, and in some ways off-setting, ways. If you read my post carefully, there is nowhere that I said that TN isn't more flawed than IPS. Just that for the price, for a lot of people -- myself included -- those flaws don't justify the dramatic price difference. If it does for you, great. It's just that the prevailing group think on this board is that "TN = teh suxorz!$!@one!#" to the exclusion of everything else.
And I must disagree with you on the ghosting / input lag. Some people are more sensitive to those issues than others, and for those that are, there is a highly noticeable difference between a 16ms IPS and a fast TN.
verylostindeed
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Double post removed, sorry.
bicycle_wreck
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I couldn't disagree more. I wish I had this information back when I bought my S-PVA. Its important that people, especially professionals, know that certain panels may not be suited for their work. Plus I just like bashing other peoples' monitors. TN's totally suck.
I simply said that bashing on someone's TN panel was useless, but if they are in the market for a new panel they should consider their options. I don't know how much you could disagree, but yet agree, with the concept I laid forth in my previous post. The bottom line is people are responsible for doing their own research, and a TN panel will serve adequately for most consumer-level endeavors.
Its apples and oranges as far as technology and price are concerened. Why buy a Ferrari if you only want to drive it to the market? Some people just won't care and/or notice they have a TN.
These so-called 'professionals' should keep their CRTs if they are serious about what they are doing. $0.02
Obligatory TN panel bashing: They're cheap and lame like (insert name)'s mom! TN panels FTL.
bicycle_wreck
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server error blah blah
I use Acer 22" TN monitors at work and a 30" IPS HP LP3065 at home. The colors and accuracy suck on the TN panels... BUT I find they are much easier on the eyes for some reason.
I have the same experience with my TN-panel laptop vs my old 19" Samsung IPS from 2001. IPS seems like it makes me blink less and dry my eyes out faster than TN panels. I haven't spent enough time in front of PVA to make a decision yet.
Anyone else experience something like this? BTW, I find TN to be ideal for office use that does not involve graphics work since their flaws are masked and you benefit from the price and what appears to be a low incidence of problems and dead pixels.
I have the same experience with my TN-panel laptop vs my old 19" Samsung IPS from 2001. IPS seems like it makes me blink less and dry my eyes out faster than TN panels. I haven't spent enough time in front of PVA to make a decision yet.
Anyone else experience something like this? BTW, I find TN to be ideal for office use that does not involve graphics work since their flaws are masked and you benefit from the price and what appears to be a low incidence of problems and dead pixels.
branana
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You just answered yourself. Image quality > *
Why don't you go play games in 256 color? That's what a 6bit TN does isn't it?
You just answered yourself. Image quality > *
Why don't you go play games in 256 color? That's what a 6bit TN does isn't it?
No, it is not. It is better than 256 color, heck, it is even better than 16-bit color. You are exaggerating. I just switch to SM245B from my LG CRT, the different in image quality is minimal for an normal user like me. Different type of panels have their strengths and weaknesses. As a user, we just have to be knowlegeable and to make the right choice.
I choose SM245B because of its lowest input lag among 24" and it is one of the best 24" TN and values, of course. I still have left over money to upgrade my CPU and videocard...comparing to if I bought an IPS...
R0achTheWarHero
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It isn't really that TN panels are good, it's just that VA panels are awful and theres like 0 IPS panels out there to buy, especially in 24 inch+ unless you spend $1000 for the NEC 2490 or even more for a 30inch.
the best black levels on lcd's are the PVA panels.....
thats why i still have my trusty CRT, the black levels are second to none
PVA does have the best black level however this is useless if the blacks are crushed at the low end of the scale, half of the grey tones displayed appear identical. LCD will never have a black level even close to CRT, this is no fix for this due to the requirement of a backlight.
vick1000
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I have a CRT, a 21" Samsung 1100DF one of the best. But I wanted a larger screen and better text/ clarity, which is where CRTs are flawed.
Ghosting and input lag are to different things. And as I said before, the electronics contolling the panel have as much to do with ghosting as the panel itself. My point is the numbers are exagerated, the difference between a 2ms panel and my 6ms NEC is not 300%, the difference is inperceptable to me and everyone else. But again, a TN marketed at 2ms can still have significant ghosting, it's been proven time and time again. Just to prove this, BenQ reduced the response of a panel in the lab to 0ms and there was still ghosting, it's a product of the way your eye and brain function. Some people are more sensitive, but those people will see just as much ghosting on a 2ms panel as a 16ms panel.
vick1000
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Sharp uses it's own panel technology called ASV, thye are not VA panels.
I must say when I first came to this site I was surprised by the cruelty and hostility towards TN panels. I had never noticed much difference between the quality in lcd screens, save for the fact that some have much better viewing angles than others, which means I can't look at my brother's screen from across the room, which hardly matters.
There IS a significant difference between the screens, and it is a bad thing that the manufacturers keep quiet about this, but I feel like there is too much hostility and eliteness in these forums. I feel like all the nerds here just love to make fun of the poor outcasts with TN panels!
There IS a significant difference between the screens, and it is a bad thing that the manufacturers keep quiet about this, but I feel like there is too much hostility and eliteness in these forums. I feel like all the nerds here just love to make fun of the poor outcasts with TN panels!
Drudenhaus
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I would have to be blind to not see the glaring quality difference between my 22" Acer and my Dell 2405FPW. I would never buy a TN panel for something in which I cared about image quality (the 22" is pretty much only for web browsing). If that is elitist then I don't know what to tell you...
true, thats why i keep that trusty HP CRT
i calibrated my benq with a one eye display2 and it helped tons in the lower end of the black scale. its really a night and day difference. for once i was impressed with an lcd thats why i ordered the 2490 also.
ASV stands for "Advanced Super View" which has nothing to do with the LCD structures.
Here are the only types of LCD on the market:
VA = Vertical alignment
IPS = In plane switching
TN = Twisted nematic
Each type has a different liquid crystal alignment to achieve an image. Sharp indeed makes VA LCD TVs in their Aquos brand because many sources claim they make VA panels.
Uberbob102000
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I'm going to chime in on this. I love my NECs and they have amazing color far and above what a TN could achieve but its not like OMG my 22" look like total ass. They look fine and if I was just a gamer or normal user I probably would notice very little difference. I do photo and video work so I am biased towards the better color panel but IMHO TN panels are not that bad and as long as your not doing color critical work I would say that your fine in getting one. I watch movies on my TN and it looks almost EXACTLY the same as watching it on my Pioneer Kuro or my NEC.
/end rant
/end rant
...it is hard not to notice the 2" different...
I am a long time CRT user and finally change to a TN LCD (SM245B) this christmas. There are differences, but it is worse or better? I like the 5" different compare to my 19" CRT and the weight. I am extremely happy with my LCD so far. For most of us sitting a few feets straight in front of the monitor and looking at texts most of the time, view angle does not play a part at all.
true, thats why i keep that trusty HP CRT
i calibrated my benq with a one eye display2 and it helped tons in the lower end of the black scale. its really a night and day difference. for once i was impressed with an lcd thats why i ordered the 2490 also.
The benq is MVA based, MVA offers a very nice blend between all panel technologes and is what I recommend to everyone if they wont go IPS.
Drudenhaus
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Size has nothing to do with image quality. Thanks for not reading.
xsoulbrothax
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I sketched this at another forum to illustrate my own issue with TNs:
The viewing angle problem on TN panels was a vertical color shift thing, as per this image from one of BeHardware's reviews.. it's still perfectly viewable from the side, but from top and bottom it goes insane.
If I'm sitting straight in front of the monitor, the angle I'm looking at it with my eyes is different at different points of the monitor, so the contrast/colors at different points were different when sitting still two or three feet away, as I usually do. I went from an IPS 2001FP to a 226BW S panel (after two C panels), and the vertical color-shift promptly drove me insane. Things at the bottom of the screen looked darker than things at the top, instantly noticable on something like the grey text boxes in this forum. I grabbed a 2007WFP IPS to compare it to side-by-side, realized the problem I had, and ended up returning the 226BW and eating the 15% restocking fee.
At the same time, I don't think most people will have a problem with that, especially if they aren't already accustomed to an IPS panel. I usually recommend something like a TN to people looking for a monitor, as they'll appreciate the price+response time benefits while absolutely not caring about color accuracy or noticing the discrepancies like I did. I wished that I could -not- notice it, because I otherwise loved the 226BW and W2207 I used.
The viewing angle problem on TN panels was a vertical color shift thing, as per this image from one of BeHardware's reviews.. it's still perfectly viewable from the side, but from top and bottom it goes insane.
If I'm sitting straight in front of the monitor, the angle I'm looking at it with my eyes is different at different points of the monitor, so the contrast/colors at different points were different when sitting still two or three feet away, as I usually do. I went from an IPS 2001FP to a 226BW S panel (after two C panels), and the vertical color-shift promptly drove me insane. Things at the bottom of the screen looked darker than things at the top, instantly noticable on something like the grey text boxes in this forum. I grabbed a 2007WFP IPS to compare it to side-by-side, realized the problem I had, and ended up returning the 226BW and eating the 15% restocking fee.
At the same time, I don't think most people will have a problem with that, especially if they aren't already accustomed to an IPS panel. I usually recommend something like a TN to people looking for a monitor, as they'll appreciate the price+response time benefits while absolutely not caring about color accuracy or noticing the discrepancies like I did. I wished that I could -not- notice it, because I otherwise loved the 226BW and W2207 I used.
vick1000
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The crystals are vertically aligned, but they are in an Axially Symmetric Vertical alignment, in a major improvment over standard vertical crystal technologies. It's completely different technology.
chameleoneel
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I have a 32 inch Panasonic TC-32LX700 HDTV with an Alpha IPS panel in it. it is the only LCD that I have ever seen that is basically unchanged at All viewing angles. the only time there is a slightly perceivable change is when you are standing up right in front of it with your head up above the top of the screen.
Are you sure it's not the size you notice?
I read alright, you said using a TN is as bad as using 256 color...
I own the Dell 3007 30" and sit probably too close to it than I should, the angle from your eyes to the corner of the screen is quite shalow compared to a steep (normal) as you look directly at the centre head on.
If TN's were used for large panels like 24"+ you'd see a horrible shift in brightness of the far corners of you screen, not to mention differences in brightness and differences in how vivid the colours appeared.
Drudenhaus
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Are we both typing and reading the same language? branana posted the comment about 256 colors. I think you need to learn to read properly before you continue posing here.
Digital Viper-X-
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I remember reading a huge review comparing all of the panel types, tn from black to black had higher response times then ips or pva so while it might accel in g2g, all the response times for tn are listed in G2G where as most IPS panels list B2B
some current TN monitors actually look really good
some current TN monitors actually look really good
Behardware is a great site, I did a lot of research there before buying my Samsung 245BW (TN based) LCD. Which BTW got a pretty good review at behardware.
Check out this review that compares color fidelity on some TN and VA monitors:
http://www.behardware.com/articles/686-5/review-of-the-dell-2407wfp-hc.html
The TN 245BW gets a "C" on color fidelity but the Viewsonic VX2435wm and vaunted BenQ FP241VW (both VA panels) only get a C+... The Dell 2407 being reviewed has great color fidelity but has well known ghosting issues for gaming. It is all about tradeoffs and choosing the monitor that best meets your needs.
For me the faster speed & cheaper price of the 245BW was a good tradeoff against marginal color fidelity differences between the 245BW and the cheaper VA monitors.
I think everyone agrees that viewing angles suck on TN, but for most of us who sit headon it is not much of an issue. Actually sitting 2-3 feet away (as I do too) reduces viewing angle problems, compared to sitting closer. But TN is definitely not good choice if you want to view the monitor across the room at big angles. There are valid cons to TN, but whoever said that TN is like going back to 256 colors turns this into a silly fanboy argument instead of a rational comparison.