John Linneman (Digital Foundry) "What I can say, because it was on DF Direct, is that I've personally spoken with three devs that implemented DLSS

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ZeroBarrier

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John Linneman (Digital Foundry) "What I can say, because it was on DF Direct, is that I've personally spoken with three devs that implemented DLSS pre-release and had to remove it due to sponsorship."

Well look at that. As no surprised to anyone that isn't an AMD fanboy, it turns out AMD has indeed be as scummy as any other corporation while being defended ad nauseum by those in their cult following.

https://reddit.com/r/pcgaming/s/PCWx92fHvH

Original tweet has been deleted stating that it was causing, "confusion". I call BS and have a feeling AMD had him take it down. The original tweet didn't mention Stanfield at all for him to come up with such a weak excuse for its removal.
 
That quite dramatic, I imagine it is not serious, sponsorship that put forward your own non exclusive toy tech over competition for games is not some FTX, Enron, Ford Pinto situation.

And AMD never said they were not doing them stuff in exchange of putting FSR and other AMD tech forward, just that they were not forced to take the sponsorship ;) They did not even ever lied about it.
 
LukeTbk said:
That quite dramatic, I imagine it is not serious, sponsorship that put forward your own non exclusive toy tech over competition for games is not some FTX, Enron, Ford Pinto situation.

And AMD never said they were not doing them stuff in exchange of putting FSR and other AMD tech forward, just that they were not forced to take the sponsorship ;) They did not even ever lied about it.
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That's one hell of a way to say they are just as shitty as any other corporation. :confused:

Let's stop beating around the bush though. Had it been any of the other 2 competitors that had been caught doing this, people here would be racking them over the coals. But since it's poor old AMD, we have to give them another pass.
 
ZeroBarrier said:
That's one hell of a way to say they are just as shitty as any other corporation.
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I must imagine you are joking, you are thinking it is people dying in Ford Pinto after the company hidded the result of bad crash test (the car fuel tank ruptured 100% of time according to Ford own testing), it is toys and games (and just how upscaling is done on some toys).

And we still do not know how much it is game studio interpreting prioritizing AMD technology with the absence of competitive one (for something like FSR-Xess-Dlss with how little it seem to take to add the other 2 it would be the logical way to interpret it) vs explicitly saying it.

And it is not like it does not make wave, HFboard is probably more AMD leaning than the world average.
 
And the counter point from MLID's sources at Nvidia. Video from Friday, queued at 12m30s:


View: https://youtu.be/IPSB_BKd9Dg?t=751

screen cap:

MLIDstarfieldFSR.png


Nevermind that so far we have typical Bethesda performance issues across the hardware spectrum.
 
ZeroBarrier said:
Well look at that. As no surprised to anyone that isn't an AMD fanboy, it turns out AMD has indeed be as scummy as any other corporation while being defended ad nauseum by those in their cult following.
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I mean, nobody said that AMD wouldn't. If it's an AMD sponsored game then AMD gets what they want. Nvidia has done this often in the past and nobody bats an eye. Remember Assassin's Creed DX10.1 removal? Kinda comes with the idea of sponsoring a game.
https://reddit.com/r/pcgaming/s/PCWx92fHvH

Original tweet has been deleted stating that it was causing, "confusion". I call BS and have a feeling AMD had him take it down. The original tweet didn't mention Stanfield at all for him to come up with such a weak excuse for its removal.
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I think you guys having a hard on for DLSS is ridiculous if you think it's worth all this controversy.
 
DukenukemX said:
nobody bats an eye.
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Not sure how true that is.

DukenukemX said:
I think you guys having a hard on for DLSS is ridiculous if you think it's worth all this controversy.
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By now I feel the controversy is much more about the com, coverage, tech world-pundit reaction than the actual speculation

Who would be high enough to be really in the know at nvidia (if the top exec really decided to do this and not some rando) that would talk too moore laws and use lol, the supposedly is important here, the intern Nvidia source his not really in the loop. And it is a different thing about does AMD does it not versus push it as a story or not (i.e. it is not a counter point at all).
 
polonyc2 said:
would the controversy be as loud if the game(s) had DLSS only?
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But it wouldn’t because Streamline includes FSR. Granted it’s only FSR 1, supposedly AMD has blocked all efforts to include FSR2 in the suite because they do not want any situation where FSR and DLSS can be directly compared.

The bigger controversy should be the fan DLSS mod for Starfield was published to Nexus mods less than 24h after pre launch and it both runs better and looks better than the FSR 2 implementation.

But developers should be pissed, both sides pissing contests are getting them wet, they can’t win.

https://wccftech.com/starfield-dlss...pc-upscaling-outshines-native-resolution/amp/

Once again though native TAA seems to look bad and FSR/DLSS is needed to clean things up at a base level. I’m not sure I like this trend. How is it that upscaling the images even at performance modes seems to net a better result than native, I can’t help think it’s intentional to make users want to turn it on.
 
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Every time there's an AMD sponsored title this crap happens. Look, when nVidia sponsors a title it will run best on nVidia hardware. Is that BS? Yup. When AMD sponsors a title it will run best on AMD hardware. Is that BS? Yup. However, THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT! Who is going to spend millions to have it NOT run great on their hardware?
Notice how these arguments DON'T come up for the Switch, which would have died an early death had it not been for FSR (which is Nvidia's own doing mind you). Because that's used on just about every AAA title being released on that console. I wonder why Digital Nvidia (or anyone for that matter) didn't have a problem with FSR on that console? Oh that's right because it has an nVidia chip in it.

All I can say is that nVidia's behavior recently is exactly why Microsoft, Sony, Valve and many more didn't go with nVidia for their consoles.

This whole AMD didn't give nVidia a reach around after class schtick is amazing.
 
Lakados said:
But it wouldn’t because Streamline includes FSR. Granted it’s only FSR 1, supposedly AMD has blocked all efforts to include FSR2 in the suite because they do not want any situation where FSR and DLSS can be directly compared.
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I would suggest that reasoning is not on point.

https://hardocp.com/blog/the-streamline-is-a-lie

The answer is much more complex than how you lay it out IMO.
 
kac77 said:
This whole AMD didn't give nVidia a reach around after class schtick is amazing.
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It's even better now because we're already starting up the rumor mill that AMD made DF take the tweet down.

But yeah the whole "mean old AMD doesn't want to hop on board with an Nvidia solution" is pretty funny. Companies just love working with Nvidia on things. They never regret it one bit.
 
NightReaver said:
It's even better now because we're already starting up the rumor mill that AMD made DF take the tweet down.

But yeah the whole "mean old AMD doesn't want to hop on board with an Nvidia solution" is pretty funny. Companies just love working with Nvidia on things. They never regret it one bit.
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It's crazy pants.

Yesterday: "AMD should compete!"

AMD sponsor's title: "Why didn't AMD include DLSS in it? Like if the game has FSR in it then AMD should like wine and dine me first. Show me the finer things of DLSS and stuff."

Cause we all know that when the Cyberpunk 2077 path tracing patch dropped Nvidia first contacted AMD as was like, "I'm thinking about this new RT technology girl. Oh yeah? Let me help you with it."
 
DukenukemX said:
I think you guys having a hard on for DLSS is ridiculous if you think it's worth all this controversy.
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No, no...its very serious. Very serious indeed.

So serious that I blame AMD for Intel not having a game ready driver already on Premium early access launch. Or that Bethesda apparently didn't even code in support for Arc cards to be able to run the game. Very much all AMD's fault.

/s
 
NightReaver said:
It's even better now because we're already starting up the rumor mill that AMD made DF take the tweet down.

But yeah the whole "mean old AMD doesn't want to hop on board with an Nvidia solution" is pretty funny. Companies just love working with Nvidia on things. They never regret it one bit.
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Just a quick look shows 8 videos sponsored by NVIDIA over the last few years, none by AMD, and two by Intel at DF.

Been around this reviewer game for a long time, and there is NO WAY for AMD to "make" them take down a tweet. And I highly doubt any lawyers were rolled out on a Federal holiday weekend, because I doubt anyone at AMD even knows this is happening. As for DF deleting that tweet, I think they overplayed their hand a bit. Read into that whatever you want.

And yeah, as for allowing NV to control your software tech and devrel teams though Streamline is asking for trouble. Streamline at a glance seems like a great thing for everyone, but it is a friggin' Trojan Horse, and everyone in the industry knows that. Intel was/is NOT on board with Streamline, no matter what was reported. I would like to see a real tech journalist hammer Intel down on that statement again.
 
I think it is fair enough for AMD to demand that as long as their engineers are embedded in the game studio (to optimize for console architectures), that the devs should not use competing tech.

But I don't think AMD can stop the devs once the AMD engineers have been released.
 
Marees said:
I think it is fair enough for AMD to demand that as long as their engineers are embedded in the game studio (to optimize for console architectures), that the devs should not use competing tech.

But I don't think AMD can stop the devs once the AMD engineers have been released.
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Does AMD send programmers? Because that reads like bullshit. So where you getting that idea from?
 
TrunksZero said:
Does AMD send programmers? Because that reads like bullshit. So where you getting that idea from?
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There is a presentation by AMD where they explain how they optimized gaming code to work better on their gaming hardware.

Will hunt around & see if I can get that.
 
polonyc2 said:
would the controversy be as loud if the game(s) had DLSS only?
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DLSS-only games aren't really a thing though. Virtually every game developer that implements DLSS also implements FSR. It's trivial to add support for all of these techs if already adding support for one. And no one is calling for games to exclusively support DLSS.

But putting aside the "Nvidia behaves badly too, if not wrote the book on it" for a moment, this isn’t a great look for AMD because it's not getting anyone excited about FSR, but rather bringing more attention to the disparity between FSR and DLSS. And with FSR2 generally regarded as being behind even Intel XeSS, that's not a good thing. This may sour some into dismissing FSR3 even if it evolves and improves.
 
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DPI said:
DLSS-only games aren't really a thing though. Virtually every game developer that implements DLSS also implements FSR. It's trivial to add support for all of these techs if already adding support for one. And no one is calling for games to exclusively support DLSS.

But putting aside the "Nvidia behaves badly too, if not wrote the book on it" for a moment, this isn’t a great look for AMD because it's not getting anyone excited about FSR, but rather bringing more attention to the disparity between FSR and DLSS. And with FSR2 generally regarded as being behind even Intel XeSS, that's not a good thing. This may sour some into dismissing FSR3 even if it evolves and improves.
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but there have been plenty of examples in the past of Nvidia exclusive features...PhysX, HBAO+, Nvidia GameWorks features in games such as Arkham Knight with paper debris, enhanced rain etc...
 
polonyc2 said:
but there have been plenty of examples in the past of Nvidia exclusive features...PhysX, HBAO+, Nvidia GameWorks features in games such as Arkham Knight with paper debris, enhanced rain etc...
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Well, not their fault amd had no competition for those features. Apples and oranges.
 
Lakados said:
...supposedly AMD has blocked all efforts to include FSR2 in the suite because they do not want any situation where FSR and DLSS can be directly compared...
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I've come to the same conclusion.
kac77 said:
...when nVidia sponsors a title it will run best on nVidia hardware. Is that BS? Yup. When AMD sponsors a title it will run best on AMD hardware. Is that BS? Yup. However, THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT! Who is going to spend millions to have it NOT run great on their hardware?...
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Close, but it's more about your competitor looking better than you.

AMD sponsors a game, and it has both FSR and DLSS = EASY comparison of the techs.

AMD doesn't want that because Nvidia has the superior technology. So it's a business decision.

Nvidia can easily include FSR in Streamline, because they know their tech is superior. Same thing, business decision. (Trojan horse not needed)

I understand the business reasons, but what's bullshit is gamers are the ones getting pissed on. By a GPU vendor that has what 20% or less market share? Game dev's are just as guilty.
FrgMstr said:
.. Streamline at a glance seems like a great thing for everyone, but it is a friggin' Trojan Horse, and everyone in the industry knows that..
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Game dev's do not need Streamline to put DLSS in a game.


Puredark is already on the 4th version of the mod to add DLSS. He fixes issues quickly.

1693840695060.png
 
TrunksZero said:
Does AMD send programmers? Because that reads like bullshit. So where you getting that idea from?
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Yes they do, just as Nvidia does, not sure if they physically send them or they get them remote access, more like on call consultants.
 
FrgMstr said:
I would suggest that reasoning is not on point.

https://hardocp.com/blog/the-streamline-is-a-lie

The answer is much more complex than how you lay it out IMO.
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Obviously Nvidia’s Streamline API isn’t altruistic in nature, it exists as further brand promotion under the guise of being fair and open. But at least it includes FSR and XeSS nobody can claim Nvidia is blocking anything when the API they promote includes it.
But why is it still FSR1 and not 2 or 3?? Comments in the forums for it indicate AMD is blocking it because in every scenario where DLSS is compared to FSR, FSR looks bad and AMD does not want those comparisons where as Nvidia openly welcomes them.
 
Lakados said:
But it wouldn’t because Streamline includes FSR. Granted it’s only FSR 1, supposedly AMD has blocked all efforts to include FSR2 in the suite because they do not want any situation where FSR and DLSS can be directly compared.
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Precisely the inverse of this is why I suspected Nvidia probably does not ask or encourage a dev to remove or not add an equivalent tech from AMD: they welcome the direct A/B comparison because they're confident in what users will find.

Ultimately, this no-DLSS in Starfield thing feels like another eyeroller nontroversy-of-the-week, but I do wonder what AMD's endgame was and what they believed the upside would be, if any.
 
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Lakados said:
The bigger controversy should be the fan DLSS mod for Starfield was published to Nexus mods less than 24h after pre launch and it both runs better and looks better than the FSR 2 implementation.
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There are mods to put in FSR where games only have DLSS, so I don't see the point here.
https://github.com/Blinue/Magpie
sc5mu93 said:
Didn't we already have this thread and it went around and around in circles before it got locked?
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The DLSS dream will never die. We really need a universal upscaler that would include FSR, DLSS, and XeSS so it makes everyone happy. You know, something that Microsoft and the Kronos Group could implement into their API's.
 
DukenukemX said:
There are mods to put in FSR where games only have DLSS, so I don't see the point here.
https://github.com/Blinue/Magpie

The DLSS dream will never die. We really need a universal upscaler that would include FSR, DLSS, and XeSS so it makes everyone happy. You know, something that Microsoft and the Kronos Group could implement into their API's.
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We would first need a standard for AI Accelerators, the way we have now for RT etc.
 
DukenukemX said:
There are mods to put in FSR where games only have DLSS, so I don't see the point here.
https://github.com/Blinue/Magpie

The DLSS dream will never die. We really need a universal upscaler that would include FSR, DLSS, and XeSS so it makes everyone happy. You know, something that Microsoft and the Kronos Group could implement into their API's.
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Yes projects to put FSR in exist but that’s not the point I was trying to make.

AMD worked with the Starfield team for months to make FSR the best it could be. Then within 24 hours of the game launching for early access a lone nobody got DLSS in there and DLSS looks and runs considerably better.
DLSS at 50% (performance) upscaling looks about on par maybe slightly behind FSR at 100% scaling. DLSS at 67% (Quality) upscaling looks considerably better than FSR at 100%.
And what are the performance indications of that? If an Nvidia user using DLSS can do a full 50% upscale and get the same visual experience of an AMD user playing at 100% how does that pan out FPS wise?
 
Lakados said:
Yes projects to put FSR in exist but that’s not the point I was trying to make.

AMD worked with the Starfield team for months to make FSR the best it could be. Then within 24 hours of the game launching for early access a lone nobody got DLSS in there and DLSS looks and runs considerably better.
DLSS at 50% (performance) upscaling looks about on par maybe slightly behind FSR at 100% scaling. DLSS at 67% (Quality) upscaling looks considerably better than FSR at 100%.
And what are the performance indications of that? If an Nvidia user using DLSS can do a full 50% upscale and get the same visual experience of an AMD user playing at 100% how does that pan out FPS wise?
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And the DLSS mod was #1 popular mod on Nexus Mods last I checked - shows it ain't just 5 people here that think AMD should make a product worth paying devs off to use before you go and pay off devs to use it, cause FSR ain't it
 
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