Kimera Industries Cerberus: The 18L, mATX, USA-made enclosure

[Phuncz]

Honestly, the push-pin system of the M1 is probably about the only thing I really hate on my M1. I haven't had my panels off *that* many times, but have already broken a few of the plastic retainer clips (and quickly ordered a crap load of spares from W360 because of this). And even worse, I always seem to slightly warp my panels each time I take them off or put them back on without doing it just perfectly (and I'm incredibly cautious and careful each time). The folded front panel is rigid enough, that it doesn't warp or flex, but I've broken clips there too.

I've long wished that my M1 would've had folded edges and sliding hooks with rear thumb screws, like my other Lian Li case. It just looks and functions so much better imo.

You must be removing them incorrectly by putting all force on one corner only. I've removed all the panels dozens of times, not a single clip has broken of for me or has deformed a panel.

I personally prefer push-pin, unless really good sliding hooks are used. Not those cheaply done, sharp bent pieces of metal sticking out, causing all sorts of vibrations. I would recommend extra clips with the push-pins if you are going down that road. And I would guess with steel panels, warping is not an issue, especially if it has folded edges.

 

[AFD]

You must be removing them incorrectly by putting all force on one corner only. I've removed all the panels dozens of times, not a single clip has broken of for me or has deformed a panel.

Always try to pull the panels directly outward with both hands at opposite ends, but near the middle a little bit (trying to gently get as many multiple pins to dislodge at once as much as possible), but most often, only one side seems to pop loose first. Think the hardest part is just getting the first panel off safely. Warpage has only been slight, and doesn't occur every time, but fortunately it's easy enough to unwarp the thin aluminum back to shape. Dunno.. maybe I'm just being too slow/gentle in trying to remove them.

And you do realize that you're soon to get a broken clip and suddenly notice a slight gap that wasn't there last time you looked, now that you've said that, right?


Definitely don't think that the sliding hooks found on cheap cases are any better than the push-pin setup, but the ones on my Lian Li are rock solid and night-and-day better than my M1 (not that the M1 push-pins are *that* bad, just not as robust imo).

In addtion to Phuncz' suggestion of including additional spare clips (if it's decided that one or more panels are push-pin), perhaps even consider a better retaining clip design. Maybe a bent steel spring (which could be dipped in rubber to dampen vibrations), or at the very least, try to find a better quality plastic which isn't quite as rigid and brittle as the M1/Lian Li clips.


And since Aiboh sure does like taking polls, maybe do a sliding hook vs push-pin poll just for the heck of it?

 

[Phuncz]

Dunno.. maybe I'm just being too slow/gentle in trying to remove them.

Hmm like you describe it, it shouldn't happen. Maybe a bad batch of clips perhaps ?

And you do realize that you're soon to get a broken clip and suddenly notice a slight gap that wasn't there last time you looked, now that you've said that, right?

Blast !

In addtion to Phuncz' suggestion of including additional spare clips (if it's decided that one or more panels are push-pin), perhaps even consider a better retaining clip design. Maybe a bent steel spring (which could be dipped in rubber to dampen vibrations), or at the very least, try to find a better quality plastic which isn't quite as rigid and brittle as the M1/Lian Li clips.

I don't think it's feasible. Plastic moulding costs a lot of money and is only feasible for many thousands of units. So unless better clips can be sourced (and occumpanying pins), it will have to be done with the solution the manufacturer will be able to provide.

 

[WiSK]

I put my fingernail between the side panel and the top panel and run my nail along this gap. This is enough to loosen the top clips of the side panel. Then I pull along the length of the bottom of the side panel with both hands and it comes off cleanly. Once the side panels are off, the top panel is easy to remove.

I haven't had any clips break yet.

 

[AFD]

I don't think it's feasible. Plastic moulding costs a lot of money and is only feasible for many thousands of units. So unless better clips can be sourced (and occumpanying pins), it will have to be done with the solution the manufacturer will be able to provide.

Yeah, I think you're right.. but, I was kinda picturing Aiboh and Playful cutting away hundreds of custom one-off metal strips with tin snips and carefully bending them into heavy-duty springy replicas of the plastic Lian Li style retaining clips.. sounds fun, right?

Or.. how about instead of sliding hooks or pins and clips, the panels attach into place with really strong neodymium magnets hidden on the interior of the chassis, and are then clamped down tight with exterior toggle latches à la the Corsair C70, or a military ammo can?

I haven't had any clips break yet.

Doh, you're next my friend!

 

[PlayfulPhoenix]

Definitely don't think that the sliding hooks found on cheap cases are any better than the push-pin setup, but the ones on my Lian Li are rock solid and night-and-day better than my M1 (not that the M1 push-pins are *that* bad, just not as robust imo).

That's a little odd considering that Lian Li manufactures the M1, but interesting.

In addtion to Phuncz' suggestion of including additional spare clips (if it's decided that one or more panels are push-pin), perhaps even consider a better retaining clip design. Maybe a bent steel spring (which could be dipped in rubber to dampen vibrations), or at the very least, try to find a better quality plastic which isn't quite as rigid and brittle as the M1/Lian Li clips.

We'd almost certainly include extra clips, but we'd have to stick to an off-the-shelf design.

Or.. how about instead of sliding hooks or pins and clips, the panels attach into place with really strong neodymium magnets hidden on the interior of the chassis, and are then clamped down tight with exterior toggle latches à la the Corsair C70, or a military ammo can?

And since Aiboh sure does like taking polls, maybe do a sliding hook vs push-pin poll just for the heck of it?

We do like out polls

What do you think: Do you prefer traditional sliding hooks on case panels, or clip-and-peg style mounting points, like those on the Phanteks Enthoo EVOLV, NCASE M1, or many of Lian Li's high-end cases?

Vote Here!

 

[theGryphon]

Wow, 100% of the voters want clip-and-pegs!!

I just voted, along with me and myself!

 

[Phuncz]

Or.. how about instead of sliding hooks or pins and clips, the panels attach into place with really strong neodymium magnets hidden on the interior of the chassis, and are then clamped down tight with exterior toggle latches à la the Corsair C70, or a military ammo can?

I like that idea !

A more suitable meme (I've used before on this forum ):

 

[theGryphon]

I like that idea !

A more suitable meme (I've used before on this forum ):
*snip*

Haha, love that! Great timing too!

I would like magnets if there is no concern of zeroing your harddrives, or stupifying your system for some reason

 

[backfeed]

Honestly, the push-pin system of the M1 is probably about the only thing I really hate on my M1. I haven't had my panels off *that* many times, but have already broken a few of the plastic retainer clips (and quickly ordered a crap load of spares from W360 because of this). And even worse, I always seem to slightly warp my panels each time I take them off or put them back on without doing it just perfectly (and I'm incredibly cautious and careful each time). The folded front panel is rigid enough, that it doesn't warp or flex, but I've broken clips there too.

I've long wished that my M1 would've had folded edges and sliding hooks with rear thumb screws, like my other Lian Li case. It just looks and functions so much better imo.

All of the top panel clips in my M1 cracked in two, so I also ordered a load of clips from W360. The old clips were subjected to a lot of heat (I had a 290X Tri-X for a while), so perhaps they "dried out". The new clips seem to hold up fine, but I've been using a reference GTX 980 so they haven't been subjected to anywhere near the amount of heat. That, or the old ones were from a bad batch, perhaps.

I still think the clips are a bit flimsy, but at least the Nova has the sense to use sturdy steel panels instead of craptastic aluminium, so panel bending shouldn't be an issue.

I voted for clip'n'peg anyway. I never liked sliding hooks, they're always more cumbersome and the stupid hooks occasionally get bent (causing the panel to be a pain to get on or off; this has happened with many of my cases, even the expensive premium ones, despite me always being careful).

 

[Phuncz]

All of the top panel clips in my M1 cracked in two, so I also ordered a load of clips from W360. The old clips were subjected to a lot of heat (I had a 290X Tri-X for a while), so perhaps they "dried out". The new clips seem to hold up fine, but I've been using a reference GTX 980 so they haven't been subjected to anywhere near the amount of heat. That, or the old ones were from a bad batch, perhaps.

I've been a running a R9 290X since the day they were available and I have no clips break
Also, the GTX 980 consumes less power and produce less heat, but it's not in the orders of magnitudes less that it would matter for plastic clips.

Also, fans are the same plastic and those are mounted onto heatsinks.

If anything, it was a bad batch I would think.

 

[Aibohphobia]

Probably a bad batch, my foot once accidentally caught the corner of my M1 and kicked the panel right off. Only broke one clip when that happened.

Anyway, Phoenix likes the clips, I still lean to the metal hooks for everything except the front panel. And it really depends on who we go with for manufacturing.

 

[Mackan]

I would say go with metal hooks, not plastic clips. While clips are convenient at first, every time I open up my N1, I feel afraid of those clips breaking. It really feels like a weak point in this case. I don't want to get the same feeling if I buy your case... Might even stop me from buying it. I like your choice of steel as well. I noticed a slight warping of the panel on my N1, only after taking off the panel 3-4 times, and I have been very careful handling her.

 

[energizerfellow]

Finally got the SX500-LG and I tried it in Nova:



Bit tight but it fits.

I've also written up a mini-review for the PSU here: http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1041440352&postcount=456

That's why I said I think the case needs ~10mm of additional vertical height. It would enable much better SFX-L support (especially if Silverstone or other manufacturer changes their cable design), along with 25mm thick fans on the top and, possibly, 2x80mm fans in the rear (with snap-in IEC receptacle in top edge "U" slot).

Slotted fan mounts in the front and/or top may be worth looking into as well.

 

[Aibohphobia]

There's actually lots of room (~12mm) for the PSU to move up if I can source a low-profile plug.

Since the top fan isn't that effective and half of respondents aren't interested in the handle the top bracket is low priority now.

So once we track down a suitable power plug, the current plan is to add a bit more space for SFX-L and reclaim the rest to add to the bottom for better HDD and 240mm rad support.

 

[backfeed]

I've been a running a R9 290X since the day they were available and I have no clips break
Also, the GTX 980 consumes less power and produce less heat, but it's not in the orders of magnitudes less that it would matter for plastic clips.

Also, fans are the same plastic and those are mounted onto heatsinks.

If anything, it was a bad batch I would think.

It was a 290X with Sapphire's Tri-X cooler, dumping all of the heat inside the case. But still, probably a bad batch, yes.

 

[empoy]

when will this case be available?

 

[PlayfulPhoenix]

when will this case be available?

Our current goal is to launch a crowdfunding campaign by sometime in mid-2015.

This is actually a perfect opportunity, though, to mention that we've just added a FAQ section to the website, that covers this and many other popular questions that we've fielded. If you're wondering about our timetable, where we're shipping, and so on, then I'd encourage you to navigate there. It's on the bottom of the "Nova" page.

(We'll probably have an identical FAQ posted here in time, but for now we're keeping it centralized as a living document on the website, since there are threads about Nova on several different forums.)

 

[lodoss900]

The Nova is beautiful.. reminds me everything I love about PC build and PC gaming

 

[Aibohphobia]

Small status update

TL;DR: Finally got a mostly silent build working, still working on production details

I've been working on a silent build in Nova but it's been more difficult than I thought due to the GPU fan controls. I tried messing around with modding the BIOS on this Asus GTX 780 but I couldn't get it to operate semi-passively no matter what I did. So I ordered a 5-pin adapter so I could remove the shroud and stock fans and cool the card using two 120mm fans on the bottom of the case.

But in the process of unplugging the stock fan connector I accidentally broke one the wires

Bummer, but at least I can power the 120s right? Turns out this adapter is not actually wired correctly for this card so I had to rearrange the pins and use another splitter to get it working.

So now I got both fans running with PWM control off the GPU, should've been easy sailing from here but nope, this GPU has a hardwired 1100 RPM minimum, not PWM % minimum, but RPM minimum.

I did all this to avoid relying on the motherboard headers for the GPU but I didn't really have a choice now, so luckily the newest version of SpeedFan can control the bottom two chassis headers on this X99M Gaming 5 and now it idles at 600 RPM.

I'm still tweaking the curve, I'd prefer 900 RPM at max but that's not enough to keep the card from throttling in BF4 so I had to bump it up to 1100 RPM.

Too bad the 970s have coil whine problems, I had the opportunity at work to trade my 780 for a 970+cash but both the EVGA ACX and Asus Strix I was looking at whined under load so that's how I got started on this plan.

Anway, here's the current setup:

Also, in the process of testing the 780 I discovered that the SX500-LG wasn't quite as robust in the semi-passive department as I thought. The rig shut down while running FurMark and Prime and when I started inspecting the system I realized the PSU was pretty hot. So I took the front panel off, turned it back on, and pointed a heat gun at the PSU intake and within 15 seconds it shut off again.

Then I realized that the fan wire was sticking up into the fan, oops. Probably shortened its lifespan a bit but at least I know the overtemp protection works

Also got the Demciflex filters in, I should have time to test them this weekend to see what effect they have on airflow.

On the production front, I've been working on my SFX-L bracket for the M1, the plan is to use it as a test run of manufacturing and logistics for Nova. Right now we're figuring out how logistics are going to work and researching various manufacturers here in the USA.

Also started looking into getting a custom power plug, but I'm not too knowledgeable on that so don't have much info there yet.

 

[Aibohphobia]

Ok, got the filters fitted:

Did some informal testing in BF4 and it seems to have a very noticeable effect on temps, CPU was about 6-7C higher and GPU was 13-14C higher (80 compared to 94) at about 18C.

 

[esplin2966]

Ok, got the filters fitted:

Did some informal testing in BF4 and it seems to have a very noticeable effect on temps, CPU was about 6-7C higher and GPU was 13-14C higher (80 compared to 94) at about 18C.

That seems like a huge difference. What is the fineness of the mesh? Maybe it's too much.

 

[jalex3]

Not unexpected. I have some of the Silverstone fine mesh filters, they seem to cut out loads of airflow.

 

[backfeed]

That is of course not ideal, but it's the usual tradeoff: very good dust filtering makes the airflow sad.

That seems like a huge difference. What is the fineness of the mesh? Maybe it's too much.

Extremely fine. The best (as in catching almost everything) dust filters I've ever come across, by far.

 

[fusionxr]

It would appear the two noctua fans underneath the gpu are not pushing cool air through the heatsink, rather just skimming the top. If the fans were making contact with the heatsink and there was no gaps for air to escape, you might have better temps. Just my 2 cents anyway.

 

[majic12]

Its coming along nicely.Was wandering,since the 2 ssd are pasted together behind the psu wont they keep each other too warm?On the other side anyone knows if there are in the making any new low profile (air)cpu coolers for the new lga 2011-3?It look like the nh c14 is not up to the task.

 

[backfeed]

It would appear the two noctua fans underneath the gpu are not pushing cool air through the heatsink, rather just skimming the top. If the fans were making contact with the heatsink and there was no gaps for air to escape, you might have better temps. Just my 2 cents anyway.

Yup. The fans should ideally be mounted on the heatsink, and suck air through funnels/shrouds directly connected to the bottom of the case. Sealed, so all air has to come through the filters. I've seen this done by a few Ncase M1 owners (was it Urelure?).

 

[Vittra]

Those numbers actually correlate with others on how restrictive Demciflex filters are compared to more standardized ones. The advantage, is, of course, a relatively dust free case.

Agreed on the fan positioning being too far to the GPU - the heatsink needs the static pressure. Without the filter it's not so much a big deal - with the filter installed, it's asking too much.

 

[kooki]

Wow, I had no idea filters gave such hit on the temps :x

Does rising the fan speeds to compensate make them too loud?

(Also I've heard that filters do rise the loudness of the fans even if you keep them at the same speed. Can anyone confirm this and inform me how significant the rise of the loudness is?)

 

[Aibohphobia]

Its coming along nicely.Was wandering,since the 2 ssd are pasted together behind the psu wont they keep each other too warm?On the other side anyone knows if there are in the making any new low profile (air)cpu coolers for the new lga 2011-3?It look like the nh c14 is not up to the task.

I haven't had any issues with the SSD temp. Running two 7200 RPM 2.5" drives probably won't work very well though.

C14 doesn't get as good of temps as the X41 but it works just fine.

Yup. The fans should ideally be mounted on the heatsink, and suck air through funnels/shrouds directly connected to the bottom of the case. Sealed, so all air has to come through the filters. I've seen this done by a few Ncase M1 owners (was it Urelure?).

Shrouding/ducting would probably help but I'm lazy and don't want to have to undo a bunch of ductwork to swap cards so I'll leave it as is.

Current setup doesn't throttle at load so good enough for me

Wow, I had no idea filters gave such hit on the temps :x

Does rising the fan speeds to compensate make them too loud?

(Also I've heard that filters do rise the loudness of the fans even if you keep them at the same speed. Can anyone confirm this and inform me how significant the rise of the loudness is?)

I was too busy playing BF4 to make much note of the noise. For both tests I locked the bottom fans at ~1000 RPM so I'm sure I could get better temps with the filters by allowing the fans to ramp up a bit higher.

 

[Shockwave818]

Ok, got the filters fitted:

Did some informal testing in BF4 and it seems to have a very noticeable effect on temps, CPU was about 6-7C higher and GPU was 13-14C higher (80 compared to 94) at about 18C.

Pretty normal for filters, and it only gets worse as they get dirty. IMHO, if someone cares enough about having a high performance computer, they'll care enough to clean it out on a regular basis.

Just like those with racing cars know they may need to have a bit more maintenance.

 

[bigyellocup]

Shut up and take my money already!

 

[theGryphon]

Pretty normal for filters, and it only gets worse as they get dirty. IMHO, if someone cares enough about having a high performance computer, they'll care enough to clean it out on a regular basis.

Just like those with racing cars know they may need to have a bit more maintenance.

Or, like beautiful women

Aiboh, you're really not doing justice to your own case, by reporting temps in probably the worst case scenario. Custom and non-ideal GPU cooling, dense filters, lowered RPM on already silent fans... Next time, try it in the bathroom with the hot water running

 

[backfeed]

Pretty normal for filters, and it only gets worse as they get dirty. IMHO, if someone cares enough about having a high performance computer, they'll care enough to clean it out on a regular basis.

Just like those with racing cars know they may need to have a bit more maintenance.

Cleaning a case could be considered a science on its own; it isn't as simple as most people think when considering the risk of ESD damage (e.g. when using a regular vacuum cleaner) and conductive material buildup under BGA chips (when using compressed air from a can or a compressor) to name a few. The best way I know to clean a case is using a special ESD-safe vacuum cleaner, but they are very expensive and a bit hard to find.

So I'd like to rephrase your sentence:

"IMHO, if someone cares enough about having a high performance computer, they'll care enough to clean the dust filters on a regular basis."

 

[Aibohphobia]

Aiboh, you're really not doing justice to your own case, by reporting temps in probably the worst case scenario. Custom and non-ideal GPU cooling, dense filters, lowered RPM on already silent fans... Next time, try it in the bathroom with the hot water running

Actually I'd love to get a temperature controlled test chamber but testing equipment is always expensive.

I could mount some 3000 RPM 38mm Delta's to the bottom but I don't think anybody would be interested in those results

 

[AFD]

I could mount some 3000 RPM 38mm Delta's to the bottom but I don't think anybody would be interested in those results

Nah, just use a few of their 5500 RPM fans so we can see the "best-case scenario".. and be sure to post audio

 

[theGryphon]

Nah, just use a few of their 5500 RPM fans so we can see the "best-case scenario".. and be sure to post audio

Two of those could reverse that GPU sag

 

[theGryphon]

Hey Aiboh, sorry for the double post but I have an idea:

How hard would it be to optionally enable installation of the PSU to the back, parallel to the motherboard?
This would enable installation of ATX PSU's with an AIO liquid cooler to be installed on the front.

You would need to do these to enable this option:
1) Create an opening for an ATX PSU at the back, and convert the current back (with the 92mm fan opening and power cable opening) to a removable backplate.
2) Slightly widen the opening on the front (where the current PSU intake is) so that a 140mm fan there would not be blocked.
3) Create fan screw holes on the front (where the current PSU intake is), so that either 140mm or 120mm AIO coolers can be installed there.

It doesn't seem much, and you wouldn't have to change the design at all.

Gains would be substantial for ATX users who are fine with using AIO coolers. I think even push-pull configs with thick rads would be possible
They would lose the 2x2.5" bracket but those can be installed on the bottom too.

I think it would benefit the project too with added versatility and wider audience (because the current SFX audience would lose nothing).

 

[PlayfulPhoenix]

How hard would it be to optionally enable installation of the PSU to the back, parallel to the motherboard?
This would enable installation of ATX PSU's with an AIO liquid cooler to be installed on the front.

It's an interesting idea, and I'm curious as to what Aiboh thinks, but there are a few challenges with that:

1. Having a removable backplate for the ATX power supply would impact the rigidity of the chassis, since we'd essentially be cutting a big hole in it.
2. ATX power supplies can be pretty long, and are almost always quite heavy. I'm not sure that simply mounting it to the back would be sufficient, so we'd need to support the PSU somehow (with an attachment for the side bracket?), or reinforce the back in some way.
3. Given that we'd need a perimeter of metal surrounding the cutout for the power supply, and given that ATX power supplies are 150mm wide and mITX motherboards are 170mm wide, there's not much vertical wiggle room to make it fit - there's less than 2cm afforded by the motherboard, and design changes we're currently considering would already cut back on the vertical space above the motherboard.

I don't know that any of these are insurmountable, but the question is if they're worthwhile. And I don't really know the answer to that, either But that's basically the only way to support ATX if we were to do so.

Nah, just use a few of their 5500 RPM fans so we can see the "best-case scenario".. and be sure to post audio

I've recorded a audio sample of the noise testing here

 

[Aibohphobia]

I've considered mounting an ATX PSU where the side bracket is but PlayfulPhoenix touches on most of the problems with that.

Plus people will try to fit dual 290Xs and then complain about heat, the SFX limitation puts a sane limit on cooling requirements.

That said, it may be possible to fit a 240mm rad up front with that layout and I think that would be an interesting possibility.

The other thing I've considered is rather than mounting the PSU to the rear is have it hang off the side bracket and use the internal power cord, that way with a modular unit you could just unplug the power connectors and swing the PSU out of the way. Probably impractical due to the weight of higher-end ATX units though.