MS source reveals truth about 360's RRoD

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Creepingdeath1977

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Feb 23, 2006
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link:
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/01/19/rumor-anoymous-inside-source-reveals-truth-about-the-red-ring-o/
If this is true,which I'm sure it probably is.
Putting a product out before it's ready is a pretty shitty thing to do to potential customers but hey it worked. The 1 year lead really helped MS get the customer base and the software library step up on Sony but it did cost MS a lot of money in extending the warranty but I still don't think it was enough, I think they should have redesigned the console and supplied a new redesigned to the customer free of charge.
 
Even if the source is false.

We all know that Microsoft rushed the X360 gambling that it would help beat the PS3. This is obvious by the HORRIBLE level of failures in its hardware.
You don't need an inside source to point this out for us, I think its common knowledge these days. MS just won't admit it for obvious reasons

I don't think in the history of hardware has a product failed so miserably and still been a success. Maybe the PS2? But I don't even think the PS2 failed as poorly

Looks like coming out early paid of for Microsoft at the expense of customers. I guess good for them :rolleyes:
 
I think,even if the source is unreal, it brings to light more about how they (Microsoft, Sony, etc.) do not look at their products as, well how well is it doing, but more of a can we turn a profit even if there are problems. For Microsoft they felt they could and even with high failure rates they have been able to push sales. I do find it interesting that they will change the hardware design every year, though it might not be completely different it will be smaller CPU, GPU, etc., after the not having HDMI and then adding it later I would hope they do not have another overhaul like that again.
 
Looks surprisingly legit. He certainly talks like a thermal test engineer (I'm married to one, I would know).

The description of the corporate screw-ups involved also rings true to anyone who's been there and done that...
 
the bad part about doing thing like this is you get consumers like myself who look at all these reports of Xbox 360's failing and will not buy the console.
 
theDreamer said:
I think,even if the source is unreal, it brings to light more about how they (Microsoft, Sony, etc.) do not look at their products as, well how well is it doing, but more of a can we turn a profit even if there are problems.
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Doesn't look to me like Sony chose to sacrifice much to turn a profit. They sell the console below cost. They don't charge fees for netplay or lock you into hard drives that only they sell. At launch, they didn't skimp on HDMI, heatsinks, or the optical drive. People wanted backwards compatibility and they included it. But, you know, all we heard after that was how expensive it was, how it looked like a Foreman grill, and how it didn't have many games compared to a system that had already been out a year. When people show they are willing to pay less for something loud and unreliable in order to play games a little sooner, it lowers the bar for the industry. Who knows, maybe if the 360 hadn't been rushed, the PS3 could have waited and gotten its eighth core enabled.
 
Don't see how it can't be true. Hell, i'm surprised it took this long to get out.

I honestly believe every one of those "first gen" 360's will RROD at some point. Microsoft is definitely kicking themselves in the asses for rushing a release of a system they were losing money on to begin with.. The amount of money this costs them at the end of the 360's life-cycle isn't worth the few months they could have waited to make things right.


One of the worst business decisions I've seen done by a company just to be the first to the market at an attempt to hurt their competition that kicked their asses 10-fold previously. At least they can afford that loss, although it's not one they should have taken.
 
Hmm, from what I remember of my first year Industrial engy class they told all engy's to take, his description of the manu process flaws definitely sounds authentic, from the description of the solder (eutectic!) and the calls on BGA soldering.

I figure at some point this problem will go 'way, but it'll always live on in the shadow of the internet, and in the next console cycle, I shudder to think of fanboy ammunition chucked both ways.
 
Actually seems very plausable, and somewhat accepted by engineering standards today.

Anyone who works in the field of PCB manufacturing knows that the number one problem today is the PB free process.

The temperatures all need to be well in excess of 900 and most in place equipment when the xbox was first rolling off the line in 2005 did not meet the heat requirements that a PB free process needed when going through the wave.

Combine that with the common practice of contracting out testing to cheap labor, then you have disaster. The only way to be sure of good solder joints is x-ray, and that is not cheap. I will gladly bet that this is probablly going to later be a problem on many devices from the 2005 era, which basically anyone who wanted to ship to Europe had to change to a PB free process.

Overall I beat Microsoft is glad they rushed it to market, because their library of games seems to have really won this generation's console battle, IMO.
 
It's pretty obvious that the problem is cold solder joints that break over the repeated heating and cooling of the mobo. The thing is, it's almost impossible to find this sort of problem unless you do many months of testing. They probably saw a few failures, but it would take a very long test cycle to find the root of this problem before GA. It was what, 6-12 months after the initial release before this really started showing up?

And, like UltimaParadox said, the 360 isn't the only component that has this problem. The T4x ThinkPads (and many other laptops) have this exact same problem with their onboard video chips. After a year or two of being moved around, picked up by the corner, etc.. the video chip pulls away from the motherboard. Just search ebay and you'll find hundreds/thousands of laptops with this problem. They were all made right around the PB Free change.

But what does surprise me is that the newer revisions of the 360 seem to have the same problem, though the percentage is much lower. The problem has to be figured out completely by now, and it doesn't take much to fix it. The epoxy and heatsink change should have done it, assuming the manufacturer actually fixed the solder issue. If the temps are still not right when they flow the chips, then no amount of rework on the board is going to fix things.

Offtopic, but if you want a nice side business, pick up a heatgun and IR thermometer, and learn how to reflow chips manually. It's actually pretty easy, I just repaired a completely dead Vaio last week by reflowing the onboard Ati chip. Most people who repair thinkpads this way have a 90%+ repair rate.
 
FitzRoy said:
Doesn't look to me like Sony chose to sacrifice much to turn a profit. They sell the console below cost. They don't charge fees for netplay or lock you into hard drives that only they sell. At launch, they didn't skimp on HDMI, heatsinks, or the optical drive. People wanted backwards compatibility and they included it. But, you know, all we heard after that was how expensive it was, how it looked like a Foreman grill, and how it didn't have many games compared to a system that had already been out a year. When people show they are willing to pay less for something loud and unreliable in order to play games a little sooner, it lowers the bar for the industry. Who knows, maybe if the 360 hadn't been rushed, the PS3 could have waited and gotten its eighth core enabled.
Click to expand...

In this example I was not referring to the Playstation 3, I think what Sony did was a bold move but a smart one to hold for a year and make sure they were ready.
 
DaRat said:
I honestly believe every one of those "first gen" 360's will RROD at some point. Microsoft is definitely kicking themselves in the asses for rushing a release of a system they were losing money on to begin with.. The amount of money this costs them at the end of the 360's life-cycle isn't worth the few months they could have waited to make things right. .
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No, I really dont think so. The failure rate is large, but not complete. Only one out of maybe the 10-15 people I know personally that have 360s (all very early models) has had an issue and his issue was not even RRoD but instead an issue with the HDD.

DaRat said:
One of the worst business decisions I've seen done by a company just to be the first to the market at an attempt to hurt their competition that kicked their asses 10-fold previously. At least they can afford that loss, although it's not one they should have taken

.
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Not really a bad decision, you might want to read The Xbox360 Uncloaked by Dean Takahashi. It really gives you a much better insider idea of what exactly the Xbox team was up against and what they were trying to do. They had to be first out this time or else they had no chance. It sounds stupid, but it is all about economics and the consumer market.

It also may surprise you, but the fact remains that Microsoft never turned a profit on the original Xbox.

http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Uncloaked-Microsofts-Next-Generation/dp/0977784215

theDreamer said:
In this example I was not referring to the Playstation 3, I think what Sony did was a bold move but a smart one to hold for a year and make sure they were ready.
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Not exactly, considering they have the worst selling console out of the 3 and are having a hard time getting game developer contracts for exclusives.
 
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With Sony struggling to get sales, I would not relate it to bad hardware but more on time of release. The 360 got the jump and the Wii, same launch time, beat them in price so everyone freaked when they saw 600 versus 250; Sony was left to compete against a tough crowd & market which is made up of "cheap" people. By cheap I mean people look at the deals they get, if something is cheaper and does its job they will compromise and get that.

Now with Blu-ray pushing ahead in high definition formats, and Sony realizing their mistakes early in the game with the Playstaion 3. They are not turning around and we are seeing sales, better games (partly not Sony's thing but what Sony does contributes to what games they get), thought we may not see them number one anytime soon we are seeing a turn.
 
If this generation of consoles has taught me anything to take forward for the next gen, it's: "Wait a year before buying".
 
JBark said:
The thing is, it's almost impossible to find this sort of problem unless you do many months of testing. They probably saw a few failures, but it would take a very long test cycle to find the root of this problem before GA. It was what, 6-12 months after the initial release before this really started showing up?
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Did you read the whole interview ? He talks about X360s they knew had problems, they boxed up and shipped off knowing a lot would fail. It didn't take 6-12 months to show up. There were RROD the first couple weeks after launch.
 
"Not exactly, considering they have the worst selling console out of the 3 and are having a hard time getting game developer contracts for exclusives."

The PS3 now has sold a little more than half of what the xbox360 has sold. 7 mil compared to the 360's 14 mil. It's exactly a year behind. Also this year has a lot of really good ps3 exclusives coming out, and that will push sales even further. I know personally 3 people who have been holding out on getting a ps3 until MGS4 comes out. Oh, and I almost forgot now that Blu-Ray is the inevitable winner in the HD wars the people that have been holding out to see who the winner is might also go out and buy a ps3 as a fairly cheap but powerful Blu-Ray player. I think it also helped Sony that they didn't half-ass on their hardware (they did half-ass a lot of other things though) because the failure of ps3 is very very low compared to the 360, and Sony being able to reduce production cost to the point of it actually being profitable will most likely allow them to counter a 360 price drop or possibly drop the price before MS does. I think the PS3 has a pretty bright future ahead.
 
contrivance said:
"Not exactly, considering they have the worst selling console out of the 3 and are having a hard time getting game developer contracts for exclusives."

The PS3 now has sold a little more than half of what the xbox360 has sold. 7 mil compared to the 360's 14 mil. It's exactly a year behind. Also this year has a lot of really good ps3 exclusives coming out, and that will push sales even further. I know personally 3 people who have been holding out on getting a ps3 until MGS4 comes out. Oh, and I almost forgot now that Blu-Ray is the inevitable winner in the HD wars the people that have been holding out to see who the winner is might also go out and buy a ps3 as a fairly cheap but powerful Blu-Ray player. I think it also helped Sony that they didn't half-ass on their hardware (they did half-ass a lot of other things though) because the failure of ps3 is very very low compared to the 360, and Sony being able to reduce production cost to the point of it actually being profitable will most likely allow them to counter a 360 price drop or possibly drop the price before MS does. I think the PS3 has a pretty bright future ahead.
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I'll be going a bit off topic, but I don't think the PS3's future is quite as bright as the 360's. The main reason I see for the 360 having more to look forward to is the fact that it sells more software than any other console. As game devs look for a console to develop for they're probably going to focus more on the console that will sell the most games, and that is the 360. Even if this doesn't lead to more exclusives for the 360 it will, and has, lead to fewer exclusives for the PS3 and thus fewer reasons to purchase the system.
 
contrivance said:
"Not exactly, considering they have the worst selling console out of the 3 and are having a hard time getting game developer contracts for exclusives."

The PS3 now has sold a little more than half of what the xbox360 has sold. 7 mil compared to the 360's 14 mil. .
Click to expand...

Ok, great, but the 360 still has been beating the PS3 on a month to month basis every month. Aka the PS3 is not catching up at all, its lagging behind...

Microsoft has also successfully been able to do price drops and package insentives everytime the PS3 tries to do something like a price drop.

Honestly, you should read the book I linked to above. It is kinda interesting cause MS is pretty much doing to Sony this round what Sony did to MS last round with the Xbox vs. PS2. The book was written whent he 360 came out though and before the PS3 came out, so it does not have any info on the current state of the battle.
 
Grentz said:
Not really a bad decision, you might want to read The Xbox360 Uncloaked by Dean Takahashi. It really gives you a much better insider idea of what exactly the Xbox team was up against and what they were trying to do. They had to be first out this time or else they had no chance. It sounds stupid, but it is all about economics and the consumer market.

It also may surprise you, but the fact remains that Microsoft never turned a profit on the original Xbox.

http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Uncloaked-Microsofts-Next-Generation/dp/0977784215
Click to expand...


I know they had to release it when they did and never turned profit on the Xbox, but they are just doing it to have a name in gaming. It's sad really that a company isn't making money on something when they throw billions into it. If it wasn't microsoft most people would call everything they are doing a complete bust. Of course, they are looking for major long-term, but their "success" (if you can call it that) thus far this generation isn't really too impressive.

The whole HD thing was blown out of proportion and Sony and MS both shot their loads a little too early.
 
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petertew said:
lead to fewer exclusives for the PS3
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You're the second person in this thread to say that but I see no reasoning or evidence ?

X360 has been on the market twice as long. Look at its sales history. They took off in year two. After 13 months on the market, Sony is hanging right with MS. Despite launching at a 50% higher MSRP and not enjoying a one year monopoly on next gen consoles.

The PS3 has been out for barely a year and is set to enter a golden era of exclusive titles like the X360 had during its second year. X360 is selling a little better than Xbox. They launched first, but MS is nowhere near the situation Sony was in the last generation. Saleswise, that is Nintendo. But due to their choices, I seriously doubt Wii will ever dominate the gaming scene like PS2. It will remain the "casual" system with excellent 1st party support and not much else.

IMO it's likely PS3 will eventually surpass X360 in global sales this generation due to superior global branding and BD.
 
Stereophile said:
You're the second person in this thread to say that but I see no reasoning or evidence ?

X360 has been on the market twice as long. Look at its sales history. They took off in year two. After 13 months on the market, Sony is hanging right with MS. Despite launching at a 50% higher MSRP and not enjoying a one year monopoly on next gen consoles.

The PS3 has been out for barely a year and is set to enter a golden era of exclusive titles like the X360 had during its second year. X360 is selling a little better than Xbox. They launched first, but MS is nowhere near the situation Sony was in the last generation. Saleswise, that is Nintendo. But due to their choices, I seriously doubt Wii will ever dominate the gaming scene like PS2. It will remain the "casual" system with excellent 1st party support and not much else.

IMO it's likely PS3 will eventually surpass X360 in global sales this generation due to superior global branding and BD.
Click to expand...


The difference is the Xbox is the underdog. There already was a huge installed base of PS2 owners that are loyal to Sony. So MS is having to get over to their side, but most people are so brand loyal they will just go from the PS2 to the PS3 (not my opinion, it is just a fact).

The 360 is outselling the PS3 even on a month to month basis, so that is a good start. Microsoft also really nailed Sony by taking away a lot of their exclusives and gaining a lot of their own which have been HUGE sellers (Crackdown, Gears of War, Halo series, PGR series, Forza series, etc.). There was some huge bidding going on and MS was successful in breaking some of the huge exclusives (GTA for one) that Sony had.

Now, the big problem for MS is still Japan...Japan still loves their Sony and Sony is much better at getting games for that market than MS is (most Japanese have different tastes in games than the general American and European publics). Another very interesting chapter in that book I linked to above.

The Video Game world is do or die, MS is doing their best to do. We have all seen many companies get burned in the industry even with good products (Sega, Atari, etc. and Nintendo almost (the Wii saved them big time from the disaster that was the Gamecube)). It is amazing how just little things make such a huge difference and most of the public does not really know or understand these little things the companies are doing that are making such huge differences on what makes it to the market and what survives.

IMO it is amazing that Microsoft is still outselling the PS3 considering the number of PS2 owners there are. Remember that the PS2 continued to outsell the Xbox 360!
 
Grentz said:
Now, the big problem for MS is still Japan...Japan still loves their Sony and Sony is much better at getting games for that market than MS is (most Japanese have different tastes in games than the general American and European publics). Another very interesting chapter in that book I linked to above.
Click to expand...
Japan isn't a problem any more, it's a lost cause. MS needs to concentrate on Europe above all others as it's fairly clear that there's nothing they can do in Japan.

Besides the fact that Nintendo is royally handing everyone their asses in Japan anyway.
 
Psychotext said:
Japan isn't a problem any more, it's a lost cause. MS needs to concentrate on Europe above all others as it's fairly clear that there's nothing they can do in Japan.

Besides the fact that Nintendo is royally handing everyone their asses in Japan anyway.
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True, perhaps they can ignore Japan as a lost cause, but they can't really abandon Asia as a whole. That is one very fast growing market right now.
 
Psychotext said:
Japan isn't a problem any more, it's a lost cause. MS needs to concentrate on Europe above all others as it's fairly clear that there's nothing they can do in Japan.

Besides the fact that Nintendo is royally handing everyone their asses in Japan anyway.
Click to expand...

Very true, and they have given up to some extent, but they will never let it 100% go because.... \/\/\/\/

GORANKAR said:
True, perhaps they can ignore Japan as a lost cause, but they can't really abandon Asia as a whole. That is one very fast growing market right now.
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Agreed
 
Nice article but it does'nt matter if mine dies I will send it in or buy another. I own all three next gen consoles and the only one I could not do without is the 360 and it's games and Live.
 
Stereophile said:
IMO it's likely PS3 will eventually surpass X360 in global sales this generation due to superior global branding and BD.
Click to expand...

I can see this happening on the global level.

However, for the console war in the US the 360 has clearly won. While their are some that will buy two systems, most will only buy one, and at this point there is only so many buyers. Plus the Wii stomping both.

Blu-Ray is a moot point, its just an "add-on" to the PS3 at this point, as their is still a large majority of next-gen console owners who do not own an HDTV. Granted BD will help gather some sells, I would venture that people buying it as a player only is a very small percentage of overall PS3 sales. Considering that Combined Hi-Def Media sells still is somewhere less than 3% of ALL media sells. Most movie buyers will make the jump to BR disc when the player is 100 or less, which with HD-DVD dying will not be any time soon.
 
Rofl just take a look inside the 360 to see how poorly designed it is, but why they did rush a console that will break due to poor heatsinks and other crap they did just to get ahead of sony is beyond me..
 
Having now had 2 360s die on me and recently gotten a ps3, I'm very impressed with how refined everything is on the ps3. The 360 clearly was rushed out the door and made with subpar components. Ps3 is a much better console from a hardware perspective.
 
Spaceman_Spiff said:
Having now had 2 360s die on me and recently gotten a ps3, I'm very impressed with how refined everything is on the ps3. The 360 clearly was rushed out the door and made with subpar components. Ps3 is a much better console from a hardware perspective.
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Well I'm currently on #5 but I agree with your staement, the PS3 is much more refined but I guess you have to go were the software is. Hopefully soon I'll have alot of software to use on my console that doesn't break every other month.
 
Stereophile said:
You're the second person in this thread to say that but I see no reasoning or evidence ?

X360 has been on the market twice as long. Look at its sales history. They took off in year two. After 13 months on the market, Sony is hanging right with MS. Despite launching at a 50% higher MSRP and not enjoying a one year monopoly on next gen consoles.

The PS3 has been out for barely a year and is set to enter a golden era of exclusive titles like the X360 had during its second year. X360 is selling a little better than Xbox. They launched first, but MS is nowhere near the situation Sony was in the last generation. Saleswise, that is Nintendo. But due to their choices, I seriously doubt Wii will ever dominate the gaming scene like PS2. It will remain the "casual" system with excellent 1st party support and not much else.

IMO it's likely PS3 will eventually surpass X360 in global sales this generation due to superior global branding and BD.
Click to expand...

I think you may have missed my point. Because the 360 sells more games (have a look at assassin's creed or COD4 sales for both systems) developers looking to do a console exclusive may be more likely to choose the 360 because they would be more likely to sell more games.

If a significant number of people are buying the PS3 mainly for its Bluray capabilities (which has been stated by a number of people here in the forums as the main reason for purchasing a PS3) then those people are not buying the system for anything more than casual gaming. So if I'm a game dev, and I have to decide which system to create a game for, I'll pick the one people game on, not the one people play movies on.

That's why I feel the 360 has a brighter future.
 
While thats true, but its not a bad idea to sell for the ones that people buy to watch movies on, since some people might try it out and like it and buy more. Though I do agree, the one for gaming is the better choice.
 
petertew said:
developers looking to do a console exclusive may be more likely to choose the 360 because they would be more likely to sell more games.
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You're going to see less and less exclusives from 3rd parties. At this point it makes little sense, for such neutral parties to make a game on one system but not the other.

I hear Ninja Gaiden 2 is coming to PS3 now.
 
I guess Microsoft never heard of Six Sigma.

I think it's funny that MS and Sony were so worried about each other they forgot about Nintendo. Now Nintendo is giving them both a buttkicking.
 
The X360 version is published by MS. That in no way precludes a PS3 version from coming out at a later date. Tecmo didn't spend all that money developing the sigma engine to not make a sequel.
X360 probably has a window of exclusivity, but only a fool would think NG2 won't ever make it to PS3.

 
Stereophile said:
The X360 version is published by MS. That in no way precludes a PS3 version from coming out at a later date. Tecmo didn't spend all that money developing the sigma engine to not make a sequel.
X360 probably has a window of exclusivity, but only a fool would think NG2 won't ever make it to PS3.
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Can pretty much guarantee that's a mistake, because word is that MS locked this up with moneyhats this time. Look at what Sigma sold, you think they're in a rush to port over NG2 for a few thousand more sales?
 
Psychotext said:
Typo... and MS locked this up with moneyhats this time. Look at what Sigma sold, you think they're in a rush to port over NG2 for a few thousand more sales?
Click to expand...

Sigma has sold around 300k copies. The install base will have tripled from the time of sigma's release to when NG2 could be out on PS3 (2009). Team Ninja has done the hard part. Create the engine (sigma) and the content (NG2).

I doubt it wouldn't be profitable to port the content over and upgrade the engine a bit. The only thing holding them back would be licensing agreements with MS, which I'm pretty sure are confidential. So you're speculating too. There is no way to know. I think it's logical NG2 will eventually be released on PS3. Maybe a black edition or something. It could be a typo, but how come the magazine has not made a retraction ?
 
Stereophile said:
It could be a typo, but how come the magazine has not made a retraction ?
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Since when do they? It's not exactly a major issue until the internet nutters start frothing over it. Anyway, time will tell but I'm pretty certain on this one.

Oh, and the depressing thing about the 300k copies is that sigma had hardly any competition from good games. The PS fans simply don't go for games with combat that complex (preferring GoW and DMC).
 
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