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Shimmering?
- Thread starter Garric
- Start date
bildad said:
QFT
As I see it, the comments are "This existed on the 6800 series and now it's on the 7800". Like all those 6800 owners ripped out their cards and threw a fit. It's possible that a select number of high-end enthusiasts noticed and are upset, but nVIDIA is promising a driver fix for this problem for the 7800 owners.
Personally, this was dredged up in my opinion because ATI owners are sick of the R520 delays that along with new information that shows the R520 may not actually exceed the performance of the 7800 series and want to find a reason that they can still CROW.
Well, troll on folks. Again, there are many here that will help you to "regain" your lost money, ebay is also doing extermely well for 7800 potential sellers.
When this issue is delt with and the problem resolved, you'll still have to "eat" Crow instead of being able to Crow.
texuspete00
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bildad said:
Yeah, I don't think he has the card at all. It's a very good possibility. Where is a GTX $700? Now he's every where about, posting BF2 is unplayable and so on.
This kiddie may not have the card. Worse case he could stop acting like they picked his pocket. There is a for sale section, use it.I bought it, it's in the mail, search around the forums for my posts. I'm not an ATI !!!!!!, I have a 9800SE right now, and this is my first high end system. I don't know what I'm going to do if I get this shimmering stuff.texuspete00 said:Yeah, I don't think he has the card at all. It's a very good possibility. Where is a GTX $700? Now he's every where about, posting BF2 is unplayable and so on.
texuspete00
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Thats what I was thinking. But others thought you had something, and you going around saying BF2 is unplayable suggested you had one too. Should have just asked for your uhm... $700 back. Since you would have been taken. Or you really like to extremely exaggerate, to the point of essentially lying.
Should have just asked for your uhm... $700 back. Since you would have been taken. Or you really like to extremely exaggerate, to the point of essentially lying.Standpoint
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Zinn said:
Shimmering is a very tough thing to get rid of, if just for the idea that the human brain is highly susceptible to creating shimmer in objects that are perfectly still, but have certain characteristics.
IE: http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/~akitaoka/sakuras2b.gif
Even though that is a perfectly still picture, if you move your head or scroll up and down on that image, 99 percent of people will see it *shimmer*.
However, I do find that Nvidia's method of rendering does cause me to visually percieve much more shimmer than ATi. Whether or not it is a human limitation, Nvidia should be working harder to reduce this annoying effect.
IE: http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/~akitaoka/sakuras2b.gif
Even though that is a perfectly still picture, if you move your head or scroll up and down on that image, 99 percent of people will see it *shimmer*.
However, I do find that Nvidia's method of rendering does cause me to visually percieve much more shimmer than ATi. Whether or not it is a human limitation, Nvidia should be working harder to reduce this annoying effect.
Seems like 99.9% of the 7800GTX/GT reviews out there didn't notice the shimmering enough to bother mentioning it. If it was truly that bad I'm sure we'd have seen a ton of bitching about it in the reviews on launch day. ATi 'enthusiasts' also made a big deal about shimmering on the 6800-series but I've never seen it on my 6800GT.
You can find faults with anything if you try hard enough.
You can find faults with anything if you try hard enough.
Garric said:
I lust after that card. You have one and I don't.
Dude, seriously. Shut the fuck up. You have a video card that most of us dream about at night. You should be proud. Your babbling and bitching like a heartbroken schoolgirl is just pissing me off.
See you online - I NEED A MEDIC HERE!
coz said:
This was exactly the case last year with all the 6800 vs X800 reviews, hardly any comments
about shimmering. It were the users itself who pointed out the issue. This can indicate that reviewers don't play intensive, just run some benches and take some comparison screenshots. Well, in screenshots you won't notice the problem.
Or, they see it, but don't want to take the responsibility for causing big fuzz on the net, which could harm their relationship with Nvidia.
Particleman
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I've owned the every generation of nVidia card dating back to the TNT2, so I am not a ATi junky, but to say that this only has a minor impact on Image Quality is ridiculous. I noticed it from the day I picked up my 6800 last year it was horrible. There are some games that not even the negative LOD clamp and HQ fix on the 6800 to this day. As I said there are some instances where the textures are already at LOD 0, thus the LOD clamp does nothing. I shut up about the issue last year when nVidia implemented the clamp and improved the HQ mode, because I felt nVidia was making progress, but I never felt the issue was completely resolved. Also as many have mentioned the HQ mode can cause a significant performance hit in some games, there were some games I had to run only 2X AF for the entire period I owned my 6800.
The image quality hit caused by shimmering is much much bigger than the trilinear nitpicking that always seemed to get so much attention. To see the trilinear optiimzations (both ATi and nVidia) you had to use colored mip-maps, shimmering could be seen with the naked eye during gameplay.
As a 7800 GTX owner I am happy that this has finally gotten the attention it deserves from the 3D Center article, as it has finally spurred nVidia to try to fix the issue once and for all. The more attention problems like this get, the better IMO.
The image quality hit caused by shimmering is much much bigger than the trilinear nitpicking that always seemed to get so much attention. To see the trilinear optiimzations (both ATi and nVidia) you had to use colored mip-maps, shimmering could be seen with the naked eye during gameplay.
As a 7800 GTX owner I am happy that this has finally gotten the attention it deserves from the 3D Center article, as it has finally spurred nVidia to try to fix the issue once and for all. The more attention problems like this get, the better IMO.
Particleman said:
Exactly. Though I havent' gotten my 7800GT OC, I'm aware that I'll probably have this issue. The more it is outspoken about, the more nVidia will want to fix it. I don't like the attitude of people that are like "Forget it, it's just a little issue. Most of us have been dreaming about this card.". I too have been dreaming about this card.. I have a bad job in a bad neigbourhood, I have been saving up for this system a lot.. and to many of you it's not even that good of a system. I have never played a new game on high settings ever. But it's like meeting the girl of your dreams only to find that she's cross eyed.
And to those who don't believe I ordered the card: I'm going to post pictures in this thread when it comes to my house. Stay tuned!
Garric said:
LOL!! Of course several would see this as a benefit, after all she'd be better able to focus on something that you'd want to wave in her face anyways
Opps, gutter mind there, just pointing out that the cross eyed portion of that comparison doesn't even count, as getting the dream girl with that minor of a flaw would be a complete non-issue. Of course I've been married for 12+ years to my Dream Girl and no she's not cross-eyed.
In any case, I'm certain you will enjoy your 7800GTX. Once it arrives, while waiting for the driver fix for all shimmering issues, let us know how much this actually impacts your gaming, or if you do detect it in the titles you run. I guess I haven't seen it, as I'm not running BF2 and I haven't seen it in my games I do own.
Z
Zinn
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Now that I look very, very closely, I saw shimmering in Far Cry! Even with LOD bias clamp!
I am so disappointed. Garric, you should cancel your order while you still have the chance! This is unacceptable. I am going to smash my 7800 GTX with a hammer because I wouldn't feel right about selling such a defective POS on the forums or Ebay. Even if I said "warning, this card is a defective POS" in the item description. I must eliminate this card before someone else sees the horrible shimmering and needs therapy for years (like I now do)
I hope Nvidia will learn that shimmering will only alienate enthusiasts. They should ditch the 7800 series completely and focus on a new product line of paper launches, vaporware and stock fraud.
I am so disappointed. Garric, you should cancel your order while you still have the chance! This is unacceptable. I am going to smash my 7800 GTX with a hammer because I wouldn't feel right about selling such a defective POS on the forums or Ebay. Even if I said "warning, this card is a defective POS" in the item description. I must eliminate this card before someone else sees the horrible shimmering and needs therapy for years (like I now do)
I hope Nvidia will learn that shimmering will only alienate enthusiasts. They should ditch the 7800 series completely and focus on a new product line of paper launches, vaporware and stock fraud.
What about all the nice things the GTX does???? Why does everybody always have to bust something??? Im very pleased with my GTX. I can "see" detail that was not apparent with the 6800Ultra, I can run all my stuff faster, I can run most everything at the highest Res my monitor can stand AND I wouldnt know this shimmering if I tripped over it. To Hell with those German guys and their "shimmer". I could give a rats ass. Im not saying this just because I happen to own two of these. I am very pleased with the card and I would recommend it to anyone.If you got to look and hunt for a reason to critisize nVidias product, I guess thats a pretty strong recommendation.
Phranq said:
Seriously, Its like the problem traveled by word of mouth.
A geek with a mangifiesing glass saw a shimmer, then showed somebody else, to not look stupid he said he saw a shimmer, that guy then goes and shows it to another firend to se if he can see it. The 3rd friend says he sees it so he doesn't look like an idiot, This makes the 2nd guy feel like there is a third problem, same thing happens to guy three when he shows it to guy 4.
The Shimmer is a Plecebo everyone it doesn't exist it just your mind playing tricks because you expect to see it.
Guess the video card from the screenshot (193KB): http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fear0kl.jpg
Click the image after it loads to see the full 1600x1200 version. I know moire isn't shimmer, but the net effect is also pretty annoying.
Click the image after it loads to see the full 1600x1200 version. I know moire isn't shimmer, but the net effect is also pretty annoying.
Z
Zinn
Guest
that's what antistropic filtering is for
HighTest said:
Ummmm No.
I bought this card to have the best IQ possible at good framerates. Now when I play BF2 I get this "twinkling" effect on ground textures everywhere! Just isnt right. BTW have you experienced the horrible DVD playback quality of the 7800GTX?
I am an IQ enthusiast and feel we have been railroaded by NV into accepting more and more of thier shader/texture/precision/video "optimizations" with every generation of graphics card. I am done dealing with it. The grass may always seem greener on the other side, but this time is the last time with NV for me at least until they seriously turn this trend around.
coz said:
Just because they dont mention it in a review, doesnt mean they dont know its there. Brent knows about it, but didnt mention it in the review. Why? I dont know. He leaves the drivers as is except for vsync for reviews, and in that setting (Quality), shimmering is very noticable in BF2 to me. Setting it for High Quality, from Quality helps a lot, but it doesnt fix it.
But good try?
haroldmeyer
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Can't see anything wrong, guess I'm lucky. I vote for a X800propxc said:
Particleman
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pxc said:
That isn't a good area to test as it is a alpha texture.
Borgschulze
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pxc said:
Isn't that called Moire?
And isn't shimmering from Anti-Aliasing turning white and back to normal again...
texuspete00
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Garric said:
So it's your GT OC that cost $700? I get it now. And BF2 unplayable... of course. It's all clear now. Or was that supposed to be for multiple parts of a system? Well, hard to see it as the waste as you put it. Not uber high end either.... how could even this card make whatever you bought for 700 a total waste I dunno. Really man, calm down. It's not that we don't believe you "ordered" the card. You act like it rapped your sister. Seriouslt, don't post BF2 is unplayable when you don't have the damn card. You started this thread asking if you should have ordered it. For you..... an emphatic NO! So you went ahead and did it anyway? No one knows what your deal is, because you are confusing as all heck.
Particleman
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pxc said:
I know it's not an AA test, all the more reason why it is best to test not to test on a texture that 1/2 of it is transparent holes which won't get antialiased by either AF or multisampling. Moire can be caused by any type of fine repeating pattern that is experiencing aliasing artifacts, including alpha textures. Watch how transparent AA on the 7800 GTX helps remove the moire on a alpha texture fence. Aliasing of any kind edge or texture, in a fine pattern can cause moire.
http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTExOTA2Mzc3MVkzTzBHeUVEQndfOV83X2wuanBn
I do agree that ATi isn't completely free of texture aliasing as well though, it just isn't as big of a problem as it is on nVidia cards right now particularly on Quality Mode.
Particleman
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aliasing (of any kind) in a fine repeating pattern can cause moire. Read up on the causes of moire
The edges of the alpha texture aren't getting anti aliased, this can cause moire. If you even look closely at your screenshot you can see the concentric rings are along the edges of the alpha texture that aren't getting any sort of antialising.
The edges of the alpha texture aren't getting anti aliased, this can cause moire. If you even look closely at your screenshot you can see the concentric rings are along the edges of the alpha texture that aren't getting any sort of antialising.
Particleman
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Look moire and shimmering are caused by "aliasing". Normally on textures it is caused by texture aliasing, AF helps reduce texture aliasing. However, alpha textures, have edges that do not get smoothed by AF, thus you can end up with moire on alpha textures with fine patterns regardless of the AF, that is the last time I am going to explain it. If you can't figure out the connection between aliasing and moire I'm not going to waste anymore time.
And the fact that "no AA was enabled" is irrelevant because you should know multisampling (the kind on the 6800 and X800 anyways) doesn't smooth alpha textures anyways. Neither AF or Multisample AA smooth the pattern on that alpha texture because neither of them affect alpha textures, why do you think transparent AA is so such a publicised feature. And when you end up with a fine pattern that isn't antialiased or smoothed you end up with moire.
And the fact that "no AA was enabled" is irrelevant because you should know multisampling (the kind on the 6800 and X800 anyways) doesn't smooth alpha textures anyways. Neither AF or Multisample AA smooth the pattern on that alpha texture because neither of them affect alpha textures, why do you think transparent AA is so such a publicised feature. And when you end up with a fine pattern that isn't antialiased or smoothed you end up with moire.
Yoshiyuki Blade
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Ah I see. Textures that aren't AA'ed will exhibit this moire pattern (shimmering effect) because the textures are still sharp and not smooth (therefore creating fine patterns with the sharpness). Since up until the 7800 series, alpha textures never received any kind of AA no matter what you set the AA to because no cards had some sort of transparency AA feature. So when this new feature came about, it helped out with this issue.