So, how have 30" monitors changed over the years?

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roper512

Limp Gawd
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Apr 27, 2005
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I have one of the very early 30" Dell monitors (3007WFP, Rev. A01) and for the most part I love it. However, I'm going to be needing another high quality monitor for a second desktop PC in the not so distant future and I'm wondering how 30" monitor tech has been coming along.. I noticed the beastly NEC that's going for $2,499 which seems to be the king of the 30"ers but.. Anyways.

My current display is nice with no dead pixels. It has some bleeding in the corners, but perhaps the most irritating thing about it has been the Temporary Image Retention. Not noticeable most of the time and it's never permanent, but still can be annoying when using applications with static backgrounds where I can notice it. I'm not sure if this was more of an issue with the early 30" technology and it's been worked out or if it is still there?

Another thing that's strange is that the 3007WFP has no OSD.. It's just a + and - button for increasing or decreasing brightness.. I'm not sure if they made this decision for any particular reason way back when... So there's very little you can change on the display.

So, I guess I'm just curious how things have been coming along? Is there any sort of new display tech on the horizon? Any 30" monitors up and coming I should wait for? What are your recommendations for nice 30" monitors?

I game and do design/video work (photoshop, illustrator, premiere, after effects).

Thanks!
 
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No OSD means lower input lag, which is great for gamers. I was looking at the Hazro HZ30Wi which again doesn't have an OSD, but as a gamer that's an advantage for me, and colours can be calibrated in software anyway. The other comparible IPS monitor with low input lag is the HP ZR30w, they both are wide gamut though which makes them unsuitable for me, but for a design guy like yourself that would be a plus?
 
roper512 said:
I have one of the very early 30" Dell monitors (3007WFP, Rev. A01) and for the most part I love it. However, I'm going to be needing another high quality monitor for a second desktop PC in the not so distant future and I'm wondering how 30" monitor tech has been coming along.. I noticed the beastly NEC that's going for $2,499 which seems to be the king of the 30"ers but.. Anyways.

My current display is nice with no dead pixels. It has some bleeding in the corners, but perhaps the most irritating thing about it has been the Temporary Image Retention. Not noticeable most of the time and it's never permanent, but still can be annoying when using applications with static backgrounds where I can notice it. I'm not sure if this was more of an issue with the early 30" technology and it's been worked out or if it is still there?

Another thing that's strange is that the 3007WFP has no OSD.. It's just a + and - button for increasing or decreasing brightness.. I'm not sure if they made this decision for any particular reason way back when... So there's very little you can change on the display.

So, I guess I'm just curious how things have been coming along? Is there any sort of new display tech on the horizon? Any 30" monitors up and coming I should wait for? What are your recommendations for nice 30" monitors?

I game and do design/video work (photoshop, illustrator, premiere, after effects).

Thanks!
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Years ago only low-end 30" were available. Like yours: just a bare panel.
Today consumers can choose from low-end (primitive bare panels), mid-range (a nice entertainment monitor - Dell) and high-end 30"s (the group of one - NEC PA301 - a monitor for everything).
The problem with 30" is that all of them are plagued by wide color gamut.
So the monitor of choice is the NEC PA301 which is WG too but with workable sRGB emulation. No image retention.

No new technologies to expect. Samsung is trying to develop their own version of IPS. It would by nice to see their 30" somewhen.
 
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http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4196/35648.png

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/apple27inchcinemadisplay_092610174635/24902.png

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1000/dell3007wfphcantiglarea.gif

...The current crop has over-aggressive AG on practically all of the 2560x models (LG panels) that distorts text(and perhaps fine details in authored art and photos) and can pollute solid colors, especially whites. The color gamut has increased on many panels as far as color testing hardware goes (on paper after being tested in dark conditions right up against the screen), but the over-aggressive AG + unhooded and possibly light-flooded environments have to be taken into consideration vs. the machine-tested numbers. I also don't consider a monitor without a scaler primative (in the negative sense of the word) by any means... scalers are there mostly for external devices that can't scale on their own -- like console games and external blu-ray players perhaps.. and maybe some really old pc games that noone ever patched into working at different resolutions/scales. That is stuff better suited to a TV for the most part or other 1080p screen. PVA lcd panels also have much better blacks than ips for any video playback usage, and computers can scale ripped video, internal bluray player playback or other video sources (htpc/hdtv tuner card signals) just fine. In fact a monitor without a scaler has a lot less input lag than one with a scaler - so is more desirable to pc gamers and considered by many, including me, a better computer monitor. Personally I would consider the dells low end if I was comparing pros and cons but that's my personal opinion. The NEC's are in a class of their own, and priced accordingly ( $$$$$).
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.. As far as what is on the horizon there will also be quadHD panels according to LG at CES. They might be out in the next year or two.. The desktop model is a 27" IPS apparently, which sounds great to me. Hopefully someone will release one without a scaler, and without over-aggressive AG coating added... and hopefully I'll be able to afford one within the next 4 or 5 years lol.

elvn said:
"Quad full HD" IPS panels in the next year (or two).. 3840x2160 27" 16:9 option eventually that could swallow current resolutions whole 16:10 or not... :p
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http://flatpanelshd.com/pictures/lgsid2011-1l.jpg
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.. 1920 vs 2560x
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.. 1920 vs 2560 ~> +320 left, +320 right (+640 wider)
...1200 vs 1440 ~> +120 top, +120 bottom (+240 taller)
...1200 vs 1600 ~> +200 top, +200 bottom (+400 taller)
...1080 vs 1440 ~> +180 top, +180 bottom (+360 taller)
...1080 vs 1600 ~> +260 top, +260 bottom (+520 taller)


.. "block of four 1080p resolutions ~ Quad Full HD 3840x2160"

.. 1920 vs 3840 ~> +960 left, +960 right (+1920 wider)
.. 1200 vs 2160 ~> +480 top, + 480 bottom(+960 taller)
...1080 vs 2160 ~> +540 top, +540 bottom (+1080 taller)

.. 2560 vs 3840 ~> +640 px left , +640px right.. (+1280 wider)
...1600 vs 2160 ~> +280 px top, +280px bottom (+560 taller)
...1440 vs 2160 ~> +360 px top , +360px bottom (+720 taller)
..

Pixel densities

27"......3840 x 2160......166 ppi ...... ????? mm... <---- Yummy
27"......2560 x 1440......108.8 ppi......0.2335 mm
30"......2560 x 1600......100.6 ppi......0.2524 mm
24"......1920 x 1200.......94.3 ppi......0.2692 mm
24"......1920 x 1080.......91.8 ppi......0.2767 mm
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elvn said:
...The current crop has over-aggressive AG on practically all of the 2560x models (LG panels) that distorts text...
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Unless he sees distorted text now, he won't on newer panels, as this is essentially exactly the same coating on his older Dell 3007, so no real change here for the OP. But I understand you guys need to get this dig in on nearly every IPS thread.

Relevant changes for Roper512 on modern 30" screens.

1: Panels are almost universally wide gamut now. This is more pain than gain. Because nearly everything with PCs is done in sRGB color space the same as your old 3007, and application support for wide gamut is spotty at best.

2: Scalers, imaging controls, are now more common, though you can still find some models out there without scalers/imaging controls, but I wouldn't recommend them as the models without scalers don't have any sRGB emulation.

That is about it. Image quality is more less very much like it was.

I would suggest you hang on and keep on using that monitor, it is essentially a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". You really aren't going to see a substantial improvement. Waiting is another chance that the sRGB emulation modes on these monitors improves.
 
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^^^ I'm still having trouble finding the "distorting text" effect people are describing. Is there a test where I can see it on my U2711? I have a nook color (eIPS), U2311h, w2408h, asus wk246h, and a few laptops (all TN), and I'm still not seeing it. Is the text just too small on a high res panel? or something?
 
I guess I shouldn't have let that stand.

It doesn't really distort text. Ashok/Elvn and a couple of other have taken it up as a crusade, so they tend to exaggerate.

Are you sure, what if you see it then you can't stand using your screen anymore? :D

If you want to see what they are talking about. Open blank white page in notepad, on your Dell U2711 and make it full screen. Now lean in about 12" from your screen and look at the surface, do you see what sort of looks there might be a very fine dust/shimmer/crystal effect on the white background of your screen?

This is what all the hullabaloo is about. A complete non issue to many people.
 
you mean the RGB color seepage around the text? I always thought that was normal...

But I guess glossy IPS panels don't have that? I mean, I sit 2 feet away from my desktop; Even with my vision, I have a really tough time seeing that (when I'm staring at ~6" or so). At 6", I'm starting to see individual RGB color elements!! Or is that the matte thing, too?

Oh, well. I'll let the issue drop if that is it. I just never knew what those people where talking about, lol...

I'll also note my workspace is normally grey, so I guess I never would have a chance of seeing that :( I guess ignorance is bliss :p Thanks for your help! My other question attempts never got anywhere...
 
Only on matte, it is not about the seeing the RGB elements.

It is just on pure white screen, a little shimmer over the white... Like for you it is no big deal for me. I can only see it if I look for it and it certainly doesn't distort text.
 
Snowdog said:
Only on matte, it is not about the seeing the RGB elements.

It is just on pure white screen, a little shimmer over the white... Like for you it is no big deal for me. I can only see it if I look for it and it certainly doesn't distort text.
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at, thanks. If there was a +rep button, I'd be spamming it right now. I never got a clear answer until today :p
 
So, I guess I'm just curious how things have been coming along? Is there any sort of new display tech on the horizon? Any 30" monitors up and coming I should wait for? What are your recommendations for nice 30" monitors?
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Just want you to be aware of the way things are now from my point of view and vs what hopefully might be just around the corner - hopefully lighter AG next time around though that is just a hope, and as another reply already stated another IPS type to choose from (samsung), and for another display tech on the horizon - a QuadHD option from LG... depending what you are looking for and how long you willing to wait. "Not so distant future" might be too soon though depending what that means. You asked people's opinion so I gave mine. If it was me I'd consider waiting it out unless you really need that kind of quality at your second desk right away. Personally I'd rather save my money for the next round since I already have a display I like.
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As for the coating I guess that u2711 owner doesn't follow the u2711 thread on this forum because its been discussed plenty there, even in the last several pages. People have gone into great detail there and would gladly clear things up for you. If you had questions about it you could have asked anytime.
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1464591&page=35
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I don't want to go too much into it but the finer the text and details the more potential for the crystal coating to distort actually, and it pollutes solid colors especially whites. Its like having a frosted mug vs a clear glass more or less, and going too heavy on the frost crystals/sand. If it doesn't bother you thats great, but it bothers plenty of people on this forum alone (in the u2711 thread and others), not just ash0k and I.. some to the point that they returned theirs or declined to buy a monitor that otherwise suited their needs baring that issue. Some people relate that even their non-techy family members have commented on the coating negatively with no reference or prompting. Its not necessarily something you "have to look for".
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.. To be clear, this is not a totally anti-AG coating sentiment, it is specifically against over-aggressive AG coatings and I thought it applied to the questions asked by the OP including whether he should wait or not vs current displays, and furthered now due to the follow up questions by the other posters.
 
elvn said:
Just want you to be aware of the way things are now from my point of view and vs what hopefully might be just around the corner - hopefully lighter AG next time around though that is just a hope, and as another reply already stated another IPS type to choose from (samsung), and for another display tech on the horizon - a QuadHD option from LG... depending what you are looking for and how long you willing to wait. "Not so distant future" might be too soon though depending what that means. You asked people's opinion so I gave mine. If it was me I'd consider waiting it out unless you really need that kind of quality at your second desk right away. Personally I'd rather save my money for the next round since I already have a display I like.
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As for the coating I guess that u2711 owner doesn't follow the u2711 thread on this forum because its been discussed plenty there, even in the last several pages. People have gone into great detail there and would gladly clear things up for you. If you had questions about it you could have asked anytime.
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1464591&page=35
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I don't want to go too much into it but the finer the text and details the more potential for the crystal coating to distort actually, and it pollutes solid colors especially whites. Its like having a frosted mug vs a clear glass more or less, and going too heavy on the frost crystals/sand. If it doesn't bother you thats great, but it bothers plenty of people on this forum alone (in the u2711 thread and others), not just ash0k and I.. some to the point that they returned theirs or declined to buy a monitor that otherwise suited their needs baring that issue. Some people relate that even their non-techy family members have commented on the coating negatively with no reference or prompting. Its not necessarily something you "have to look for".
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.. To be clear, this is not a totally anti-AG coating sentiment, it is specifically against over-aggressive AG coatings and I thought it applied to the questions asked by the OP including whether he should wait or not vs current displays, and furthered now due to the follow up questions by the other posters.
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Nice try, but I already did ask about it before. All I got were replies like this - slights and gibs from people not trying to help, but rather advance their own viewpoints over all else. Either that, or I got treated like a matte fanboy right off the bat. The U2711 thread, last I checked, decended into people mindlessly babbling on on how they hate AG coating, in some posts, outright saying glossy is nothing short of supreme, and people using matte are simply thick, for not using glossy.
Not a very conductive enviorment for help.
 
There are detailed descriptions of the issue there in that thread as I said. I've read them. You acted as if you had never heard a description of the issue, "wondering" if it is something about color seepage. Either you were feigning ignorance or you never read the descriptions of the issue in the thread as I suggested. And I'm sure if anyone now asked for a detailed description of the issue on that thread in a new reply, saying they were confused.. (is it a color seepage issue?), they would receive a detailed description amongst the replies.
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elvn said:
There are detailed descriptions of the issue there in that thread as I said. I've read them. You acted as if you had never heard a description of the issue, "wondering" if it is something about color seepage. Either you were feigning ignorance or you never read the descriptions of the issue in the thread as I suggested. And I'm sure if anyone now asked for a detailed description of the issue on that thread in a new reply, saying they were confused.. (is it a color seepage issue?), they would receive a detailed description amongst the replies.
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Or, I would, as I've always, would simply see two replies repeated over:

you'll see chrystalization (really? what does that look like? *crickets* Oh, we now have a thread with close up pics... that don't look like anything...)
you're eyes will hurt from the graininess (really!?)

And again, with the slights. It's like you're now attacking me :p
 
There are many detailed descriptions of the crystal-frost~haze effect, and even some attempts at an animated gif to give some (admittedly limited) idea of what the issue looks like (the gif which I linked in my first post in this thread no less). Saying "I understand what they are saying they see, but I don't personally see it or notice it" is one thing.. I just found it hard to believe you read or asked about the issue considering how you seemed to think it was color bleeding. I couldn't decide if you were bullshitting or just hadn't read the many descriptions -- yes amongst some if the more impassioned posts but you always have to wade through some of those. Originally I was just trying to give my opinion of whats avail now vs what might be around the corner to the original poster before he decided whether to buy a 30" now or wait. And I agree those close up pics in that other thread aren't really telling vs the normal viewing level.
 
What do you guys mean by "without a scaler"? All of these monitors can scale non native resolutions to their screen resolution so how could they not have a scaler?
 
sonic_blue said:
What do you guys mean by "without a scaler"? All of these monitors can scale non native resolutions to their screen resolution so how could they not have a scaler?
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30" scaler free monitors don't. The graphics card does. Try hooking up a Sony PS3 to one of the scaler free models and you get nothing.
 
elvn said:
There are many detailed descriptions of the crystal-frost~haze effect, and even some attempts at an animated gif to give some (admittedly limited) idea of what the issue looks like (the gif which I linked in my first post in this thread no less). Saying "I understand what they are saying they see, but I don't personally see it or notice it" is one thing.. I just found it hard to believe you read or asked about the issue considering how you seemed to think it was color bleeding. I couldn't decide if you were bullshitting or just hadn't read the many descriptions -- yes amongst some if the more impassioned posts but you always have to wade through some of those. Originally I was just trying to give my opinion of whats avail now vs what might be around the corner to the original poster before he decided whether to buy a 30" now or wait. And I agree those close up pics in that other thread aren't really telling vs the normal viewing level.
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Great... so "color bleeding" is now a seperate issue from "graininess" and you accuse me bullshitting people. And what is color bleeding, then? What is graininess (is is the first photo? or is that something else? "color pollution?" [based off of your words in the first post]) May you define them, before you keep on thinking what I think is thinking the wrong way. You're the one who is stuffing the "color bleeding" term down my throat.

EDIT: yes, that's a lot of "you" utilizations in an inquiry post :eek:
 
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I said I wasn't sure if you were feigning ignorance of the detailed description of the over-aggressive anti glare issue .. It sounded like you never read a description of it before - yet you have posts in several threads that talk about it.
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... I never said color bleeding was the anti glare issue. It sounded like you were confused and thought color bleeding was what people were complaining about on the o-a-AG issue. (like when crt's have a color 'halo' around the letters bleeding outside of the font).. If you were honestly unsure of what people were complaining about I'm sorry to have been suspicious, wondering if you were sandbagging or whatever. I'm guessing you were considering the diffusion by the crystals/textured layer "color seepage"? I suppose someone could interpret it like that in a way but really its just sparkly crystal coating.. much like a veil of frost on a glass window. The concept isn't that hard to imagine even if you don't notice it on your own monitor for some reason. The sparkles/frost pollutes solid colors with it's field of graininess/crystals, and that grain/crystallization distorts text's fine lines (and perhaps some fine details in authored art and photos too). Its there all the time but it becomes more obvious on solid color plains, especially whites. It can also cause some people to focus on the texture layer itself, or try to "focus-away" the distortion on text - which can contribute to eye fatigue.
 
^^ I'm constantly learning different things about "antiglare" One is the text will be wavy, one is the screen will have sparkles. Now it's going to change the color seperation!? (I'm being cautious on the last term, since apparently everything means something).

then again, you're the one who first stated what I was describing as "color bleeding" :p Back to the thinking what I'm thinking part o.0 Or for a harder to misinterpret phrase, "lost in translation" (or interpretation)

EDIT: a request: quick web search is not helping me (in this context), what's "sandbagging?"

EDIT2: I think my tone is still a bit off, but please don't take it personally or anything.
 
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There is backlight bleed, which can result from manufacturing variances between the panel and the backlight. A bit too much space here, too little there, etc, and parts of the screen can appear brighter than others. This exists on almost all screens (uniformity, it's usually called), but can become a real problem if severe.

An unrelated, but often confused, characteristic unique to IPS panels is "IPS glow," or reductions in black levels when viewing the panel from an angle. On larger panels, the closer you get to the monitor, the more acute the angle at which you're viewing the monitor's perimeter, and you can see a brightening of the screen. This can look like backlight bleed, but the glow will shift position as you move your head around the screen -- the part that's perpindicular in front of you will always appear slightly darker than the rest. An "a-tw polarizer" can be used to address this problem, but introduces green and purple tinting to some dark areas, and is no longer available on any mainstream current monitors.

I can't be certain what you're talking about, jeremyshaw, but I think it's subpixel rendering, a way of aliasing fonts controlled by the operating system. You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subpixel_rendering

As for the original question, the major changes with 30" panels in the last few years have already been addressed -- wider gamut and better scalers, which allow for a wider variety of inputs. There have also been some gains in energy efficiency, so a modern monitor will run a bit cooler than your 3007.

The real change in this class of monitor has been the introduction of the 27" 2560x1440, 16:9 aspect ratio monitor. It is much smaller than the 30" (the shorter diagonal doesn't capture all of the reduction in size -- the smaller aspect ratio works in there too, to the point where a 27" 16:9 is closer in size to a 24" 16:10 than 30" 16:10), but has a large pixel count. The net effect is that the ppi (pixels per inch) is about 10% smaller, something some prefer. Smaller text, less visible pixels. You may consider the 27" 2560x1440 monitors as a viable alternative to the 30".
 
I'm going to keep myself out of future monitor discussions... this is just going way over my head. Thank you cvgh, snowdog, & elvn.
 
Congratulation Elvn for thread crapping on yet another unrelated IPS thread.

Your little crusade is meaningless here. The original poster wanted to know about change in 30" monitors, and you launch into you little crusade about the horrors of IPS AG coatings without considering that he already has one of these monitors, so there would be no change in that arena for him.

Have you devoted even 10% of the effort you put into scaring people away from IPS screens, into actually giving feedback to LG about how their AG coating will soon cause them to go out of business?
 
I wanted to mention it in one reply... and whether he owned one or not he might like to know that the current crop have that coating since he wasn't aware of the state of the current monitons and is in the market for buying one. Some people would prefer a milder AG even if they own one they are "ok" for now, and so might prefer to wait even if pretty happy with what they have for the time being.
.. I not only mentioned the o-a-AG coating, but I brought up scalers being a downgrade in my opinion, and some misc thoughts about color gamut. I mentioned o-a-AG in the first sentence of my post, and also in the last as part of a wish list for the quadHD panels.
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..Jeremy took that cue and decided this was the thread he needed his clear answer in about the AG coating ~ frost-like display distortion, which required further replies since he seems to have had trouble grasping it conceptually even if he can't notice it himself on his monitor.
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.. As for the over-aggressive AG coatings -- If anyone has questions about those current monitors and asks, potentially not knowing about it - I will mention it if I see that thread whether it starts a fire or not. I would hate to not know about it, post a thread here asking about my monitor choices, and have someone not mention it before I went out and bought one without an informed decision of potential cons.
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Hey guys, really appreciate all the responses so far! Interesting that QuadHD is not TOO far off.. I might want to hold out then :)
 
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