Blade-Runner
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2013
- Messages
- 4,372
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NVIDIA is doing nothing wrong. They're navigating the regulations as they're written. If the government doesn't want them to export products to China, then they should just outright ban the export of products to China.
All countries, businesses and other rhetoric ignored for now. Just this comment and the arrogance and power stand it implies makes me angry:
View attachment 617865
"Im going to control it" - Who the F are you, the lunch money bully?
The law is being enforced, she just doesn't like that NVIDIA is finding ways to get around it, and she is taking that personally going by the tone of that quote.She is the commerce secretary. It is her job to control exports enforcing the laws congress has enacted, and I hope she brings down the hammer with all the force of the government she can. Consent decree, seizure of assets, criminal prosecution for violating export regulations, etc. etc. etc. Use every tool necessary, and absolutely flatten everyone and anyone who thinks they are above the law. Zero compromise.
Laws need to be enforced no matter what, and if people or corporations try to violate or circumvent them they need to be on the receiving end of a complete and total regulatory beat down by any means necessary. Pound them out of existence if you have to.
Make it extremely clear to all operators on the market, that ever you dot every i and cross every t when it comes to the law, or you cease to exist.
There can be absolutely zero wiggle room here.
That guy Rodger actually replied to me on his Youtube channel lol I told him Dan Bongino talks about him all the time.
The law is being enforced, she just doesn't like that NVIDIA is finding ways to get around it, and she is taking that personally going by the tone of that quote.
If a business is dodging the rules, great, go after them, make em burn. Have a bit more tact and professionalism in your approach.She is the commerce secretary. It is her job to control exports enforcing the laws congress has enacted, and I hope she brings down the hammer with the full force of the federal government. Call in every last applicable three letter agency. Consent decree, FBI raids, seizure of assets, criminal prosecution for violating export regulations, etc. etc. etc. Use every tool necessary, and absolutely flatten everyone and anyone who thinks they are above the law. Zero compromise.
If there is intent to violate export restrictions I want to see Jensen - smug face, leather jacket and all - do the perp walk. It needs to be made excruciatingly clear that no violation of law is acceptable by anyone, no matter how rich or powerful, and if direction to violate export restrictions goes straight to th etop, then maybe, just maybe, Jensen himself needs to spend the next 20 years in a federal "pound me up the ass" prison.
Laws need to be enforced no matter what, and if people or corporations try to violate or circumvent them they need to be on the receiving end of a complete and total regulatory beat down by any means necessary. Pound them out of existence if you have to.
Make it extremely clear to all operators on the market, that ever you dot every i and cross every t when it comes to the law, or you cease to exist.
There can be absolutely zero wiggle room here.
The everyone break the law 3 times a day is maybe an exaggeration, but there is so many laws, sometime in exact contradiction, that this view does not match modern rules books. That view work well if there is 10 clear obvious laws, that do not infringe on something as legitimate as making a video card and selling it to who you want.Use every tool necessary, and absolutely flatten everyone and anyone who thinks they are above the law. Zero compromise.
Yes and no, the rules (not sure if it need to go to law) make almost all nvidia cards (4070ti, 4080, 4090) above the limits in some interpretable ways (you can use 8 bits tflops, it does not specificy which). And this add to the confusion, the rules in some ways say that you cannot sell a 4080, but selling them is not seen as going around, they wrote a rule and did not put all the skus that violate it because it is a bit of a stupid rules.They wrote the law, Nvidia is 100% compliant with the law and it’s well within their right to sell hardware that doesn’t violate the law.
She isn't moving goalposts; just telling them in advance that her agency is capable and willing to add every new A.I. chip they develop to the list.At what point does a federal law constitute harassment?
They wrote the law, Nvidia is 100% compliant with the law and it’s well within their right to sell hardware that doesn’t violate the law.
Telling Nvidia that if they comply with the law they will just change it so that they aren’t is kind of a bullshit move.
Either ban everything from going to China or don’t, but moving goalposts monthly will just land someone in a lawsuit that taxpayers pick up later.
It wasn’t just some firmware block the card the government is referencing is the H800, which was physically different and designed to be a cut down H100 to comply with the laws as they were written and was approved as meeting those restrictions.Not if they are using weak (like the LHR mining restrictions) controls that can (and will) be broken the second the GPU's wind up in China.
A company like Nvidia is not that incompetent that they cannot physically disable portions of their product in ways that they cannot be circumvented. The assumption then has to be that it is on purpose, and if it is, then they are complicit in export restriction violations.
Its certainly enough to get a judge to sign a warrant, and equipment to be seized looking for those smoking gun emails...
Export restriction violations are serious business. I have seen raids where chains are put on the doors, everyone gets sent home, and FBI swoops in with evidence boxes and starts building a case.
I'm not saying Nvidia is guilty, but I am saying that the strategy they have embarked on on these Dragon version 4090 cards is highly suspicious, and looks a whole let like they are intending to circumvent the export restrictions with weak circumventable blocks much like the LHR GPU's, and if true that makes them complicit. At the very least there is enough smoke there to warrant an investigation.
But they can't use this for training military AI. We put a block on it.
The block:
View attachment 617869
Yeah, that's a crime right there.
Well the export restrictions are based on specific values based on power, performance, and density. Then they banned all enterprise and workstation silicon that doesn’t meet that criteria.She isn't moving goalposts; just telling them in advance that her agency is capable and willing to add every new A.I. chip they develop to the list.
Why they did not restrict the 4090 in 2022 with the a100/h100 if they are not moving the goalpost ? they gave special license to a list of gpu for them to be sellable and they remove them at will over time.She isn't moving goalposts; just telling them in advance that her agency is capable and willing to add every new A.I. chip they develop to the list.
Cheeto used so that fiddling with the expensive lock can be traced to "hands with orange dust". Because..... security.Not if they are using weak (like the LHR mining restrictions) controls that can (and will) be broken the second the GPU's wind up in China.
A company like Nvidia is not that incompetent that they cannot physically disable portions of their product in ways that they cannot be circumvented. The assumption then has to be that it is on purpose, and if it is, then they are complicit in export restriction violations.
Its certainly enough to get a judge to sign a warrant, and equipment to be seized looking for those smoking gun emails...
Export restriction violations are serious business. I have seen raids where chains are put on the doors, everyone gets sent home, and FBI swoops in with evidence boxes and starts building a case.
I'm not saying Nvidia is guilty, but I am saying that the strategy they have embarked on on these Dragon version 4090 cards is highly suspicious, and looks a whole let like they are intending to circumvent the export restrictions with weak circumventable blocks much like the LHR GPU's, and if true that makes them complicit. At the very least there is enough smoke there to warrant an investigation.
But they can't use this for training military AI. We put a block on it.
The block:
View attachment 617869
Yeah, that's a crime right there.
They are called export controls after all…All countries, businesses and other rhetoric ignored for now. Just this comment and the arrogance and power stand it implies makes me angry:
View attachment 617865
"Im going to control it" - Who the F are you, the lunch money bully?
Going strictly by the Density requirements the entirety of the Ada Lovelace lineup violates that provision, and as each of the chips has a workstation or enterprise equivalent then really none of Nvidia's current lineup is allowed to be sold in China, and instead of looking at this as a list of banned cards you need to flip it and instead think of it as a list of allowed cards.Why they did not restrict the 4090 in 2022 with the a100/h100 if they are not moving the goalpost ? they gave special license to a list of gpu for them to be sellable and they remove them at will over time.
Will they ban all the Apple product that goes over the 5.92 TPP by mm limits ?
By the time the rules is over 2026, 5.92 of max tflops (regardless if it is int4 or FP64) by mm square on chips, could very well be your entry level laptop or phone.
A simple 4070ti has 641 tflops of FP8/int8, it is only 294mm,
641*8 = 5128 of TPP, on just 294mm, that's 17.44 or 3 time over the limit of the current rules.
The L4 is a very underpowered 4070ti with a lot of vram after all and is way above the limit after all, sold with a special exception license.
If a 4070TI can be ban right now if they want, will it be moving the goalpost once it became the popular option in China once the 4080 and 4090 are all ban ?
Will any of AMD, Intel, Nvidia, Apple, of the upcoming generation chips (cpu with an AI part of their soc or gpu) not be over the very low threshold ?
These bans are weird, I understand the need for national security and all that stuff, but these bans seem halfassed and overly specific, if the Government is going to start down this road then they better get ready to regulate the crap out of the emerging AI markets for everybody and treat them like a potential weapon. In light of these bans, LLM research in China is already moving to different model types, and they are making good progress on taking big AI systems and breaking them down into very small specific entities that you can run on existing x86 systems, then simply get those individual systems to pass specific questions back and forth amongst themselves like a giant round table until they collectively reach a consensus and an answer. Essentially AI by committee, which isn't as fast as having a single repository for all the answers, but it scales out better.
Is that a fact now? Or just speculation? And if not actually protecting them, then just what do these guards do?and nothing emphasizes necessity like armed guards "protecting" the Chinese scientists working on them.
(1) Duuh. (2) Not a surprise. And Sec. Raimondo has my support.
No, she is telling Jensen to stop trying evasive actions. Or else, move the company to some other jurisdiction. Nothing is stopping them.The law is being enforced, she just doesn't like that NVIDIA is finding ways to get around it, and she is taking that personally going by the tone of that quote.
https://ai.meta.com/tools/pytorch/#:~:text=PyTorch is an open source,support needed for production deployment.Unless the concept is patented or the IP kept a secret, then some non-Chinese researchers could also work on this approach.
Inside joke, I worked with a guy I’m going to call Dave, he worked on satellites. One time while in China troubleshooting a “Communications” satellite he called his supervisors to let them know it wasn’t going well, it was out of alignment and not responding correctly. Shortly after making the call he was assigned some guards and told due to the nature of his work there was a credible threat on his life. He managed to fix the satellite after a bit of an extended stay and the guards were then no longer required. The office gave him a sizeable “stress bonus” after signing an NDA and let him retire to a desk job.Is that a fact now? Or just speculation? And if not actually protecting them, then just what do these guards do?
That would not necessarily stop them, you do not need to be US based to be subject of sanction by the US federal governement if you do not do stuff they want.No, she is telling Jensen to stop trying evasive actions. Or else, move the company to some other jurisdiction. Nothing is stopping them.
They need to be physically laser cutting traces on the dies of the GPU or some other method to make certain that the limits are irreversible, or they are indeed in violation of the law.
No, she is telling Jensen to stop trying evasive actions. Or else, move the company to some other jurisdiction. Nothing is stopping them.
Well the export restrictions are based on specific values based on power, performance, and density. Then they banned all enterprise and workstation silicon that doesn’t meet that criteria.
Changing the criteria is the literal definition of a moving goalpost.
All that this does is give AMD a huge in to China instead and they will build something with them instead.
Everythng seems to be going to shit since Xi made himself Most Belovedest Grandest Lord Emperor of China for All of Time
Yet no restrictions on AMD or Intel hardware, which seems unfair and short-sighted.U.S. revises chip export rules to China, GeForce RTX 4090D likely to be affected
https://videocardz.com/newz/u-s-rev...china-geforce-rtx-4090d-likely-to-be-affected
View attachment 645302
It isn't specifically nvidia. It is listed as items with greater than 70TFLOPS of compute power.Yet no restrictions on AMD or Intel hardware, which seems unfair and short-sighted.
If they are going to go so far as to legislate this it seems odd to me that they would only target Nvidia, all this does is open the possibility for China to develop their own AI using AMD or Intel hardware, unless this is the government round about way to get China to pay for the R&D into a competing AI solution that they can later steal, which would be an interesting turn about from the more stereotypical China stealing it from the US.
So the 7900xtx just sneaks in under but the 4080 and 4090 don't feel bad for the Chinese gamers out there.It isn't specifically nvidia. It is listed as items with greater than 70TFLOPS of compute power.
So the 7900xtx just sneaks in under but the 4080 and 4090 don't feel bad for the Chinese gamers out there.
There are legit ones, not just the prison farms.I haven't felt bad for Chinese gamers ever.
There are legit ones, not just the prison farms.
Yes those are a thing, in China, they found that putting prisoners out to do manual labor was not cost-effective so instead having them farm digital currencies was a more profitable and less problematic use of their time.
Meh, nvidia knew they were at odds with the gobberment, they took a chance. Even if they don't sell these to china, there are other countries who'd gladly buy them, probably still for a profit.I can understand them not wanting China to build AI's out of Nvidia's most powerful chips.
Ultimately, the genie is out of the bottle. The attempts to control it are going to fail, or to keep it from China.
But it's bullshit to make a specific regulation to block a chip, and then to turn around and also block the redesigned but compliant chip. That's wasted fucking effort on Nvidia's part, and a big pile of bullshit.
Nvidia and Gov should work more closely together, rather than the Govt basically attack a company for being a leader and innovator. I blame this squarely on the Gov. They are being reactive which is typical. But they need to be proactive. Wishful thinking on my part.
it's not like they don't already have spies over here that can just purchase them, box them up and ship them over there anyway. but i guess it doesn't hurt to throw a monkey wrench in their gears. like we've done with nuclear technology with n. korea and iranYou can tell who are Nvidia share holders in this thread. In a bit of a note it's been obvious for awhile that the US government is going to clamp down on high powered "AI" chips going to China. Any company looking to export to China with those kind of chips are going to be playing with fire.