When to upgrade? The safest time...

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steviep

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Messages
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Alright, I'm currently running a 1.3ghz P3 with 512mb of ram and a 128mb GeForce 4200 8x. And I've been holding off on an upgrade to this machine for a very long time.

Going back to school in January, so I was just about ready to pull the trigger on a $3000-ish CAD system that would look something like this:

Motherboard: Asus P5WD2 Premium (955x)

Memory: 2GB OCZ 800mhz FSB DDR2 Platinum Gold Dual Channel (5-5-5 - best 800mhz DDR2 you can get in a 2GB configuration instead of 1GB)

HD: Raptor 74gb

GPU: BFG 7800 GT

Sound: X-Fi Fatal1ty

and finally, CPU choices in order of preference:

1) Pentium D extreme edition 3.2ghz (800mhz x 2 cores + hyperthreading) - $1200CAD
2) Pentium 640 (800mhz, 2mb cache, hyperthreading) - $350-ish
3) Pentium D 630 (800mhz x 2 cores, no hyperthreading) - $400-ish

Now I'm not asking an appraisal of my system, nor what other components make up the $3000, but I am asking for advice as to how future-proof this system is. I normally keep systems around for 2-3 years (as you can see) and I want it to be upgradable for more than a year at least, as mine so very clearly was.

Now I've read another thread here looking at Intel's roadmap (Yonah, Conroe, 965, etc), but those things are always so vague, and "Q1, Q2" etc makes me sick, really. Since Q1 could be April or paper launched until summer or something. I want a PC SOON (I'm dying here and I'm going to school for computers soon), but I don't want to be left out to dry in terms of upgradability, for ANY of my components (i.e. when are the new GPUs out in actual stores, is there a new Raptor on the horizon, etc).

What will the 955x chipset support, and for how long? And should I wait out and for how long? I know these are a lot of questions, but I'm really at a loss of whether I want to wait for the "next best thing" (which is always coming) or I should pull the trigger now and be safe for a while. What's coming out soon enough for me to be able to wait, and which chipsets will it be supported on? I'm not sure if I can wait 'till April-June for 965 and Conroe, so please feel free to give me as many suggestions as possible :) It's getting to be a pain to play the latest games, plus I want something faster for all the encoding that I do (which is why I'm still going for Intel, and looking seriously at the extreme edition)

Thanks guys!
Steve

BTW... I see that Asus has a 975 based board, but I haven't seen that in stores yet. Is it out for purchase yet, and how does it compare to their fantastic 955 board? Especially in terms of features (i.e. I liked how the 955 had sort of a semi-SLI available to it, even though it was not supported by NVidia... I see the ATI crossfire logo on the 975...). Is there a premium edition for it, and how long will that support Intel's future CPU's?
 
from what i have been seeing, it is not worth it to get new intel gear right now.. usually, you are right, there is always going to be sometihng new around the corner to wait for.. right now, however, the new stuff from intel is looking a lot more promising than what is out now..

if you are dead set with spending a lot of money on an upgrade, doing it once, and doing it intel.. then i would say to wait..

i think that you should do a smaller upgrade now though.. and then another one in a year or less, and so on.. it will cost you the same and you will always have a more current system...

also, right now, i would tell you to seriously look at amd.. $300-$350 will get you a nice dual core x2 or opteron. ddr is $80 a gb.. you can upgrade to a very current system for $1000.. (maybe a bit more in CN $)

i don't know much specifically about intel and their future plans though.. so i will let osmeone else answer how future proof the things you are looking at now will be..
 
that looks great, i think you should go with the intel extreme edition. i also have a question: whats CAD?
 
the i975x asus boards should be good. the WS version is clocking relatively well i think, and is not even an enthusiast board. there is a P5WD2-e premium coming. this is the enthusiast i975x board by asus.

if you can wait, i would go for the i975x chipset, it is due early next year i think and will support the new dual core 65hm procs (although these should work on i955x as well) and the single core 65nm should work as far back as the 925 chipset i think.

975 chipset should support conroe, this is the reason i would wait for it, and will likely upgrade at that stage myself. conroe is due approx end of 06, and is the desktop proc based on dothan/yonah architechture?

SLi/crossfire was available on p5wd2 with driver hacks. crossfire is fully supported by 975, Sli still via driver hacks.

as i said, i will most likely 'pull the trigger' myself when 975 and 65nm hits early 06...
 
intel? intel has been a bust and their pentium D isn't promising at all it has been beaten by a wide margin by those AMD a64 and you can get the AMD system for way cheaper than the intel ones. cheaper by $150-200, plus you can get the memory at $90-150 cheaper as AMD uses DDR1 not DDR2 and if you get the A64 x2(dual cores) it sure would get you 3-4 years of service or the Opteron Dual cores (165/170). AMD is cheaper than intel performance to buck ratio. And on all the benchmarking test A64 which costs $500-600 beats intel extreme edition that cost $800-1000 by a large margin.
 
Congrats to AMD being such an awesome processor, and for a good price. Now, back to my request: I'm looking at an Intel system and it seems I should wait for the 975 chipset for the most longetivity? (since that will support Intel's next big architecture change in their CPU?)

CAD = one of the acronyms for Canadian dollars, since I live in Canada.

So when is the premium 975x board coming out? Is Q1 the best current answer? I'm not sure what exactly to wait for, and what exactly to buy. For instance, if Intel's next desktop chips (the 65nm dual cores) are out in January, and they are dual core with hyperthreading... why blow $1200 on an extreme edition chip? Please continue to feed your opinions and thoughts on my proposed Intel system, they are appreciated. And just for reference: I do game, but not as much as I do media processing. Hence why I'm in this forum, and not the other one :p
 
Question: In real world perfomance, does Hyperthreading actually help on dual core procs?
 
No clue, but the more multitasking ability I have, the better. I do a hell of a lot of encoding, burning, editing, etc, since it's part of my job. And I hate having the PC bogged down at all.
 
Mabey you should consider Yonah on the desktop over the Pentium D..i know i sure will be when i build a new system. Ive heard that the next generation mobile (memron) will possibly work in Yonah boards too. Yonah schools a P-D in just about everything and runs alot cooler.

Just a Suggestion :)
 
I wouldn't waste my money on an extreme edition chip. Hyperthreading just doesn't work that well, which is why Intel is phasing it out of their processors. Today, it can give some performance benefits on rare occations, with a small number of apps (I don't know which ones, you'd have to read a mess of reviews yourself for that), but most of the time it actually hurts system performance (but only 3% or so).

I would buy the fastest dual core chip available, no hyperthreading, especially if the hyperthreading is going to cost you $800 CAD.

I think the most important things to factor in at this point are: 4+ DDR2 slots, for memory expansion, and a 16x PCI-E slot for video upgrades. Almost no one upgrades their processor without upgrading their motherboard (have you?), so I wouldn't worry about which upcoming processors will fit on your chosen motherboard's socket.
 
steviep said:
Congrats to AMD being such an awesome processor, and for a good price. Now, back to my request: I'm looking at an Intel system and it seems I should wait for the 975 chipset for the most longetivity? (since that will support Intel's next big architecture change in their CPU?)

CAD = one of the acronyms for Canadian dollars, since I live in Canada.

So when is the premium 975x board coming out? Is Q1 the best current answer? I'm not sure what exactly to wait for, and what exactly to buy. For instance, if Intel's next desktop chips (the 65nm dual cores) are out in January, and they are dual core with hyperthreading... why blow $1200 on an extreme edition chip? Please continue to feed your opinions and thoughts on my proposed Intel system, they are appreciated. And just for reference: I do game, but not as much as I do media processing. Hence why I'm in this forum, and not the other one :p
Click to expand...

well as far as I can tell 975 will most likely be january, it is likely that 975x and the 65nm dual cores will launch at the same time - as they will only be supported on 975x i think. the problem is that there is no garantee that conroe will even work on 975, although everything points to this being the case. the 65nm procs will, as i said, most likely still work on 955. the only one that will have problems is the 955xtreme edition chip (most likely cost the same as the current extreme dual core chip). this is 3.46ghz, HT, dualcore, 1066fsb - and people have ran this proc on 955 boards - just depends on how much effort you are willing to go to.

personally i dont think there is much point using yonah for this type of application. realistically the only thing is good at is gaming - granted yonah is dualcore, but 533fsb isnt really enough to share between two cores. and the mobile architecture isnt that great at encoding anyway.

most encoding and design apps have good support for multiple threads, so multiple cores and HT would be an advantage i think.

@ rysher: i think that the price of DDR1 will start to rise in the coming months, and when socket M2 for amd is released it will be obsolete - and likely more expensive than DDR2 by that stage.
 
I'm not a fan boy or anything, but I do not see the sense in spending $1200 CAD ($1000 USD) for a P4 840 EE 3.2GHz when the X2 line seriously outperforme them, runs cooler and has a far lesser power consumtion.
 
i second the above.
maybe the builder is an intel die hard even though the x2 are cheaper and performs better. i guess you can never teach and old dog some new tricks.
 
Go with a 600 series processor (to save money). Your choice of Asus board is good. P-III wouldn't be enough for your work.
 
I would get the 975 chipset series and get a Presler when it comes out. They overclock to 4.5 GHz easily on the TT Typhoon (Anandtech). I say 975 because according to various sources, it is Conroe compatable so if your 4.5 GHz Presler is too slow, you can upgrade to a Conroe in around July and overclock that too!
 
I wouldn't suggest getting a fatality sound card. It would just be a waste of money. The on-board sound quality on nicer mobos these days is so good that getting a sound card is starting to become less and less of a necessity. I do sound editing, and my latest system that I built last July was the first to not have a stand-alone sound card. Can't tell the difference between my current onboard sound and an audigy. ;)
 
I'm not an "intel diehard" who can't learn new tricks. I've just seen enough benchies to know that the extra few seconds I save encoding an MP3 on an Intel board are worth it to me. If I was a gamer first (instead of second) I would've be typing on an AMD X2-powered PC right now. So I don't want to turn this into an AMD vs Intel debate, you have enough of those in the forums. I mildly overclcok for fun occasionally, but am not all that interested really, since my PC is used in professional applications as well.

For me, it was a choice between getting a few extra FPS in games (AMD) or a few extra seconds back in encoding most things (Intel) and I chose what's most important to me - bottom line.

Anyway, so far you guys have been helfpul in me making this decision... I am going to wait for the 975 premium asus board, and pray it will be available in stores in early->mid january. When is Presler coming out, and in which configurations will it be available in? Despite the fact that hyper-threading can be a small loss or gain, I think for what I'd use it for, it would be a gain. I'm interested to know of the Pressler dual cores will have HT in them as well. I would like to avoid spending $1000US on an Extreme Edition chip, but like the idea of having 2 real and 2 virtual cores, for what I do :)

PWMK2, actually, if I were to only do sound editing, I would stick to the on-board premium audio of the Asus boards as well. But I do DJing on the computer as well, and occasionally use 2 sound cards at once if I don't have the music on CDs/records (the 2nd sound card acts as another music source in my DJ mixerboard). So I figure if I'm going to PAY for another sound card, it may as well be a decent one :)

So again, to recap... I'm hoping that the 975 premium board is out in early Jan, so that I will be compatible (most likely) with Conroe chips when they come out. Intel's 65nm process certainly sounds like they may have their heads on this time :p
 
rysher said:
i second the above.
maybe the builder is an intel die hard even though the x2 are cheaper and performs better. i guess you can never teach and old dog some new tricks.
Click to expand...
Maybe the OP just doesn't want to deal with inferior hardware. There. :)
 
As far as I know, Yonah will go toe-to-toe with AMD's chips for gaming, right? Well as I've said, gaming is not my primary concern, but a secondary one. I need a multimedia multithreading monster, with high-bandwidth DDR2 memory and lots of it :)
 
steviep said:
As far as I know, Yonah will go toe-to-toe with AMD's chips for gaming, right? Well as I've said, gaming is not my primary concern, but a secondary one. I need a multimedia multithreading monster, with high-bandwidth DDR2 memory and lots of it :)
Click to expand...

Presler Extreme Edition , or Pentium D 955XE will be launched today...

3.46Ghz , 2x 2MB L2 , 1066 FSB , multi 12-60 , HT, VT ,EIST , etc...

That's your rmultimedia multithreading monster.

It OC so easy , that it is a no brainer.You simply pop up the multiplayer to 15 or 16 and you're over 4Ghz of dual core madness.Stock voltage , stock HSF.The highest OC with it reached 6.1Ghz , go figure...

Conroe will work with boards like 945,955,965 and 975.

Conroe Extreme Edition will feature a 1.33Ghz FSB , already supported by 975 boards.

My advice : buy the Presler 955XE and a 975 based board.

You can't go wrong with this setup...
 
Honestly I wouldnt even go with intel for cad work the amd cpus render much faster. This is more along the lines of what I would get if I was you

amd x2 3800 or operton 165 v6, nf4 motherboard with sli, 2x 7800gt and bios flash them into the cad version forget the name of it. 2-4 gb ram 1gb sticks with very low latency I reccomend the corsair low latency pro versions. A good 21' crt or 24' lcd and whola! Heck setup like this is around 2000.00 bucks
 
I don't do work with CAD or 3D rendering, Shane. And I'm going to stick with Intel for the multimedia processing that it brings. Not to mention, I'm not going to touch AMDs until they get into DDR2... DDR is a dead tech and I'm not spending money on it. DDR2 will be around for a while. Thanks for the suggestion, of course, but my interest currently still rests with Intel.

I was looking at the Presler 955XE today on Anandtech, actually.. I thought it was launching in mid-January with the 975 boards? I'm interested in it... but am having trouble finding anyone that carries DDR2 that runs at 1066mhz. In fact, I think only OCZ makes it, and I don't think you can get it in a 2GB dual-channel configuration?
 
You dont work with cad nor interested yet in your original post you said your building a cad system lol what drugs are you on man cuz I want some that good stuff. Cracks me up. And btw why not touch amd cuz of no ddr2 lol guy dont you know that ddr2 is actually slower right now than ddr ? Whoooo pass your drugs around bro we need it to understand you hehe Also btw dont even think of getting good cad frames if you think your just going to buy a 7800gt game card without a bios flash to turn it into a cad card dude. Thats the cheap way to do it for the savvy minded people or you can be a moron as apparently you are and just spend 2k for a cad card instead of a 5 min operation of flashing a video bios lol
 
His original post was worded in a way that I thought he meant that too, but a few posts down you will see that he meant Canadian Dollars not Computer Aided Design.
 
I would get the Pentium D 830/840 or wait until 900-series Pentium D officially becomes available for better pricing on the 800-series. Most test show that for the price the 840EE is not that much better than a regular 840.
 
Nasgul said:
P.S. I had a Socket 478 setup with DDR but I ditched it because I felt DDR sucked. hey! that's just me, but DDR2 is the greatest (so far) and waiting on DDR3 here.
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DDR2 is better for Intel from what I read, however for AMD it still isnt fast enough to overcome what DDR1 is doing right now. The first M2 systems will not see a gain when they transition over to DDR2.
 
Yes, I did mean Canadian Dollars. And despite how lightning-fast DDR1 is (and I know that), it still is a technology that is on the way out shortly... so why be stuck with something that won't last me for more than half a year? That's part of the reason I'm going with an Intel rig, even if the timings aren't as aggressive as current DDR1. It doesn't matter as much for Intel systems anyway, since they don't have an integrated memory controller.
 
Oh no, I already saw your post regarding an AMD solution and we are in the Intel section, so I feel no need to try to sway you toward AMD. I will simply replying to the "DDR1 sucked" thing I quoted.
 
Will the 975x chipset support the 1.3ghz FSB conroes? I Heard it would only be able to do 1066 Mhz and that a newer chipset would be needed for the higher perfromance conroe cpus.
 
Ok so what your saying is that all amd systems suck becuase they use ddr1 and are owned by intel...and intel is far more future proof beyond 6 months because they have ddr2 memory....cracks up Anyways I see possibly you were referrring to cad as in canadian dollars not a 3000.00 cad system. Simply put whether you choose intel or amd make sure to get a dual core setup since your so interested in future proof which btw doesnt exist. Heck I wonder why my future proofed commodore 64 with added ram and a hard disk is not still rockin the internet lol
 
steviep said:
I don't do work with CAD or 3D rendering, Shane. And I'm going to stick with Intel for the multimedia processing that it brings. Not to mention, I'm not going to touch AMDs until they get into DDR2... DDR is a dead tech and I'm not spending money on it. DDR2 will be around for a while. Thanks for the suggestion, of course, but my interest currently still rests with Intel.

I was looking at the Presler 955XE today on Anandtech, actually.. I thought it was launching in mid-January with the 975 boards? I'm interested in it... but am having trouble finding anyone that carries DDR2 that runs at 1066mhz. In fact, I think only OCZ makes it, and I don't think you can get it in a 2GB dual-channel configuration?
Click to expand...

You don't need DDR2 1066 for a 1066Mhz FSB , low latency DDR2 533 is what it needs to run in synchronious mode....
 
By CAD you mean canadian dollars not Computer Animated Design?

Anyway I think you should wait for 975x and the naw dual core I think its called pressler, as the current one was kind of a rush job.

Also may I suggest getting the gtx instead of the gt, and maybe getting a second much larger hard drive for additional storage.
 
steviep said:
I don't do work with CAD or 3D rendering, Shane. And I'm going to stick with Intel for the multimedia processing that it brings. Not to mention, I'm not going to touch AMDs until they get into DDR2... DDR is a dead tech and I'm not spending money on it. DDR2 will be around for a while. Thanks for the suggestion, of course, but my interest currently still rests with Intel.

I was looking at the Presler 955XE today on Anandtech, actually.. I thought it was launching in mid-January with the 975 boards? I'm interested in it... but am having trouble finding anyone that carries DDR2 that runs at 1066mhz. In fact, I think only OCZ makes it, and I don't think you can get it in a 2GB dual-channel configuration?
Click to expand...

Post #36 stole some of my Thunder. 74GB RAPTOR might make good drive for just the OS, office apps, various sound video card apps, Like DVD Plyers, Photo and VIdeo apps and etc.. I'd go with a SATA-II WD 2500KS with a 16MB Cache and set it up with larger sectors for better streaming performance. If you game and start putting 2.5 to 7GB games on that 74GB HDD, then add RAW video, you'll fill that sucker up very fast. I did a RAW 10 minute clip that was almost 36GB. My Games Folder is 48GB and I removed 4 games the other day.

As far as the Processor goes, cheers to you on not bending or giving in to the AMD F@NS. Only they think AMD is cheaper.

I'd only wait for the reviews of the non-Hyperthreading 9xx models. At first I didn't like it but the more I've played with my Bud's system, the more I like DDR2. You're forgetting one step in looking at the FSB and what RAM to use with it. DDR2 533 provides the correct Bandwidth because it is also Ran in Dual Channel so just like the Processor's 1066 is made up of 266.7 X 4, the RAM is; 266.7 X 2 = 533.3 X 2 = 1066. Each ends up with a possible 8.4GB of bandwidth. Of course *Overhead eats some of that up some.

You want to get DDR2-667 BTW. This ram in pairs matches the 10.2-3GB that 1333MHz FSB would provide. Keep in mind that DDR3 will NOT be compaitible with DDR2. DDR3 is expect to go to 800/1000MHz then something like 12 and 1600.

I'd NOT want to buy DDR1 because the good stuff costs just as much and in some cases MORE that good DDR2. It is Dead-ended tech. I built an AMD Gamer Rig because I already had an extra GB of PC-4000. I would have went DDR2 as well otherwise. MY Asus A8N-SLI is very picky about RAM.

I second what the guy said about the sound card. I have an X-Fi XM, my only regret is that I didn't get the Premium version, for my Guitars and etc..

I like the i975X but I'm not so sure about buying a premium model. I mean hell, will you use 5 or 6 HDD's? Two NICs?

Donnie27
 
I already have plenty of storage drives (regular ATA100, but it doesn't matter for storage drives) - they amount to over 1 TeraByte, actually. I think I'm going to wait for the new 150gb Raptor as my boot/OS/apps drive, anyway, whenever it decides to be released. They've finally decided to add NCQ and the SATA-2 interface, along with a 16mb cache, so it sounds like something I want :) On top of that new Raptor (which will be a screamer) I will likely also throw in a 2-300gb Maxtor MaxLine III w/16mb and NCQ for things like raw video editing, and keep the Raptor for OS/Apps/Game installs.

I understand about the frequencies of DDR2 in relation to the processor (CPU = quad pumped, DDR = dual), so yes, for a 1066fsb DDR533 would do the trick... but by getting DDR2-1066, wouldn't I be future proof for a while? (it would drop run at the correct frequency anyway, for whatever CPU i throw in there, correct?) From what I've read, DDR3 is a ways off, anyway. Hell, AMD hasn't even adopted DDR2 yet. And yes, DDR1 is way too expensive for a dead end tech, so I won't be looking at any AMD systems until I know my investment will last me a while. I tend not to do any major upgrades for 2-3 years after I purchase a system (only minor ones).
 
steviep said:
I already have plenty of storage drives (regular ATA100, but it doesn't matter for storage drives) - they amount to over 1 TeraByte, actually. I think I'm going to wait for the new 150gb Raptor as my boot/OS/apps drive, anyway, whenever it decides to be released. They've finally decided to add NCQ and the SATA-2 interface, along with a 16mb cache, so it sounds like something I want :) On top of that new Raptor (which will be a screamer) I will likely also throw in a 2-300gb Maxtor MaxLine III w/16mb and NCQ for things like raw video editing, and keep the Raptor for OS/Apps/Game installs.

I understand about the frequencies of DDR2 in relation to the processor (CPU = quad pumped, DDR = dual), so yes, for a 1066fsb DDR533 would do the trick... but by getting DDR2-1066, wouldn't I be future proof for a while? (it would drop run at the correct frequency anyway, for whatever CPU i throw in there, correct?) From what I've read, DDR3 is a ways off, anyway. Hell, AMD hasn't even adopted DDR2 yet. And yes, DDR1 is way too expensive for a dead end tech, so I won't be looking at any AMD systems until I know my investment will last me a while. I tend not to do any major upgrades for 2-3 years after I purchase a system (only minor ones).
Click to expand...

HDD
I'm using just one 250GB WD 2500KS with 16MB cache but no NCQ. It's just as fast without NCQ and much less troublesome on my nForce 4 SLI board.
http://www.storagereview.com/articles//200507/20050705WD2500KS_1.html

RAM
If I were buying DDR2, then I'd buy nothing less than DDR2 667 and CAS4 4-4-8 1T. Seeing 2GB of it, and multitasking with this stuff is a thing of beauty. I didn't know Battlefield 2 could load that fast. Call of Duty 2 loads take about 2 seconds for example.


Video Card
I only wish I could afford one 7800GTX or even the X1800XL, I only bought an X800XL because it was $199 at CompUSA. I was ready to buy at least a 7800GT and add another later.

Donnie27
 
I'm going to go for a GT, because the video card is one of the worst investments in an entire computer. I'm not a HUGE gamer, anyway. Plus, then next gen (or the gen after) will support DX10, so I'll probably be upgrading then again. I don't want $600 (canadian) of my dollars to go to waste on a GTX.

Now I'm not sure whether to get DDR2-667, 800, or 1066... lol.
 
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