Will the Xbox 720 Need Blu-ray To Succeed?

[XamediX]

An option would be to use the hd-dvd format for data, which would avoid royalty costs, add plenty of storage space, but lack ability to play existing bluray format discs.

That's what I was thinking. Yea it "lost" but why not use it for a closed-system so-to-speak for the extra space that for some reason games demand nowadays.

I remember 10 years ago or so when DVD's were first coming out - everyone was like why should i give up my VCR for these cd lookin things......it took a while for it to take off but it finally did.

I would imagine something similar will happen with either blu ray or its successor, like one poster above mentioned if for nothing else the storage capacity on them.

The difference with VHS->DVD is that there was an actual easy to see quality difference and substantially less money required to use the new format.

I have an hdtv and I don't use blueray. Regular old DVDs still look great on it. Probably not going to upgrade to blueray anytime soon.

I'm in the same boat. I still watch 80% more xvid/divx rips than actual dvds. I am in NO rush to go HD anything unless I'm using Netflix, which XBOX already has...

The Xbox doesn't need Blu-Ray. After all, it's a console we're talking about; a closed platform. They can use any kind of media they want - including their own proprietary format.

I was thinking that or getting a good deal on HDDVD licenses.

Here's a thought. I don't know if anyone else touched on this; I didn't read every post. If it doesn't add blu-ray, what will the point of an XBOX "720" be? I mean, how will it be upgraded over the 360? The games will have to be more advanced, so others have said, that will mean exceeding the DVD9 capacity. I don't see them going back to the HD DVD format, even if it is still viable for data. And I don't see them using some type of cartridge or flash media.

A good game doesn't need assloads of space to be good or complex. That's the fluff Sony's marketing is selling you. We don't need photo-realistic games yet. We need solid gameplay as a standard first.

I'm glad I read this because I was going to post the same thing. HD DVD is a proven (yet currently dead) format that could easily be reproduced and used for games. They were already making headaway on larger disc sizes. It would be smart for MS to buy up the tech from Toshiba and use it in the new console.

It seems alot of people are thinking this way also...

 

[ittech]

Yes, and it will have blu ray

 

[SnapperDragon]

Didn't I read something a while back that the PS3 would be Sony's last console? Does anyone see an end to the "next" console for any makers?

It depends on whether the new box is completely new or an upgrade to existing hardware architecture.

The big mistake is that all the companies decided to use something other than x86. Apple found out the hard way that x86 is probably the best architecture if you want to guarantee it will be around and viable for a long time. By sticking with this, backwards compatibility at the hardware level could be a no brainer even on newer consoles.

Having a new console that *may* work with your old games does not make me want to go out and get the latest and greatest right away. I have an investment in the games that I want to preserve. Same goes for the peripherals. Forklift replacements is not a good thing, so it should be avoided.

As for the new games, just like on the PC, the game would run on either console but as with newer PCs you can dial up the resolution and other graphic settings. Same game, different console, no problems.

 

[Beta-guy]

I'm glad I read this because I was going to post the same thing. HD DVD is a proven (yet currently dead) format that could easily be reproduced and used for games. They were already making headaway on larger disc sizes. It would be smart for MS to buy up the tech from Toshiba and use it in the new console.

Toshiba won't sell the rights or patents of HD-DVD, here's why HD-DVD IS DVD, look at how HD-DVD was created, Blu-ray got announced, the DVD forum panicked they briefly thought let's put compressed HD movies on regular DVD's, a month later they came out with AOD (Advanced Optical Disc later renamed to HD-DVD) HD-DVD wasn't something put in years of development like Blu-ray, Blu-ray actually came from another technology called UDO (Ultra Density Optical) being used in the year 2000 Toshiba from what I understand they took the DVD standard and changed it from red laser to blue laser and that gave them more space.

if they sold the patents around HD-DVD, Microsoft could receive royalties from DVD sales. considering the whole reason for the format war was so Toshiba could keep the money flowing in from the DVD royalties, and the significant losses they took during the format war, I believe Toshiba is going to play it out and next time there is a format war Toshiba will have a new developed technology to WOW use like they did with DVD. Until them it's Sony's turn.

 

[maxius]

Not if you have comcast!!

with all the INTERNET companies moving to bandwidth caps any download service is dead in the water. the 720 will have blu ray another thing i noticed anyone see any pirated ps3 games lately? i know i have not seen any perhaps sony did something right with its console by backing blu ray

 

[Crasher]

The problem with Blu-ray is

1. That it cost way more than DVD.
2. Sony owns it.
3. The next format is around the corner.

I will stick with inexpensive DVD. The only movies I buy are for my kids and they and I could care less about 1080p.

 

[bpmurrGT]

with all the INTERNET companies moving to bandwidth caps any download service is dead in the water. the 720 will have blu ray another thing i noticed anyone see any pirated ps3 games lately? i know i have not seen any perhaps sony did something right with its console by backing blu ray

It's only a matter of time when Blu-ray writers are cheap along with the media. Then you'll see the same issues with PS3 games.

 

[jynxycat]

The logistics behind the article topic are pretty far fetched. Would you see an Xbox system with a BD-drive ? Probably not.

Will it have something high density than DVD9 ? Almost certainly.

People who claim that DVD9 is perfect for the next run of systems, probably said games are fine running on 3-5 CDs too ? There's a reason Sony went from CD format to DVD format early on with the PS2.

 

[Sathsayin]

The problem with solid state doesn't have anything to do with usb thumbdrive's. that is just a package. Solid state in a package that is in a hard plastic package about the size of a nintendo 64 cartridge so that they can be easy to find. the consoles will be cheap with only solid state electronics. The only problem would be with movie playback. Which ITS A FREAKING CONSOLE. IF I COULD GET A PS3 AT HALF THE COST BECASUE OF THE BLURAY CRAP AND THE FREAKING EXPENIVE BLUE LAYER I WOULD BUY ONE. Types of media doesn't imply the type of file that's on it. I could have a dvd play blueray quality if the it was in the right codec. it would just be only 10 minutes in length. 1080p is a resolution. OMG . why can't people understand that its just a higer resolution not a set in stone thing. "HDTV" god i just wanna slap the microsony out of somebody's ass.

 

[bpmurrGT]

A good game doesn't need assloads of space to be good or complex. That's the fluff Sony's marketing is selling you. We don't need photo-realistic games yet. We need solid gameplay as a standard first.

Agreed, it seems this generation has gotten away from solid gameplay in the name of better graphics (example Lair) or gimmicks (Wii games).

Before the fanboys come at me I own all three systems.

 

[nobody_here]

I think they have to have it, just for the storage capacity. Current graphics and sound already are far exceeding the DVD9 standard. The other option would be very large hard drives and forced full game installs like Windows machines, but that gets away from the console simplicity.

This is coming from someone with 10x as many 360 games as PS3 games.

disagree...look at what is able to be done on the 360, and the game images are only 6 to 6.5Gb's in size, not to mention they are padded with non-data containing sectors so the actual data isn't even that much, and we are talking about 8Gb DVD DL's here, so there's 2+ Gb's of room on most game discs yet as things are

 

[Inglix_the_Mad]

My two pence:

Blu-ray will probably win. Just like DVD coexisted with VHS for many, many, many years, DVD will be around for those that don't want to change because of fill_in_the_gripe

DVD almost didn't make it in the beginning, and for those that are complaining about player and movie prices, at this point in it's life-cycle (comparing to the direct time Blu has been on the market) DVD was still higher priced. DVD success was NOT assured, and heck it almost failed because most people couldn't see the difference on their sh*t TV's.

Why will Blu-ray win? Because 1080p is "better" and that's what the sales monkeys will say to the average consumer. Considering you can get 1.1 players now (and don't start b*tching about profiles or I'll bring up 4-bit DACs) for less than 200 dollars (regular price) you can pick one up for less than a new Oppo and all BD "up-convert" (which still looks like crap on a large TV, even with the REON) and besides, the "real 1080p of Blu-ray is better" (yes that last bit is a sales line overheard at a BB, but similar to one at Frys).

SSD's in systems? Possible. Then again the price of an optical disc is almost nil compared to flash drives of the same size, especially reselling the memory every time. Also, it's very easy to press a "run" of discs out vs. programming SSD's (they wouldn't really be classifiable as USB flash drives at this point). We won't even get into the fact that to get the speed up you'd need to use something like a SATA interface (eSATA?) Think of it this way, which is cheaper: paying for one drive and then runs of the media (optical) or paying for the drive effectively every time (SSD)

Is Blu-ray assured yet? No. The fact that it's cheaper than DVD at the time in release life-cycle is a good sign, as is the ever cheapening of large format displays. My 52" Samsung ToC tv cost less than my 42" Toshiba did.

As far as MS "giving money to a competitor" it's an idiots argument. So many people own so many different patents it's not funny. Not only that but Sony is a multinational corporation with so many subsidiaries and patents it's not funny. MS is probably already paying them some money tangentially. Heck I wouldn't doubt if Sony is tangentially paying MS. That's just the way it is.

 

[cooter]

Where did the Xbox 720 come from anyway????? Someone finds one article where a writer (who looks like a 16 yr old kid with a collared shirt) mentions a name that is no way officially even mentioned by microsoft and all of a sudden everyone is predicting that this new console (which based on trend should not be released until about 2011) will have a ridiculous name like Xbox 720, just because that is double 360.

 

[Inglix_the_Mad]

Agreed, it seems this generation has gotten away from solid gameplay in the name of better graphics (example Lair) or gimmicks (Wii games).

Before the fanboys come at me I own all three systems.

I don't know AC wasn't a bad game and was "pretty."

 

[nobody_here]

Where did the Xbox 720 come from anyway????? Someone finds one article where a writer (who looks like a 16 yr old kid with a collared shirt) mentions a name that is no way officially even mentioned by microsoft and all of a sudden everyone is predicting that this new console (which based on trend should not be released until about 2011) will have a ridiculous name like Xbox 720, just because that is double 360.

easy bro, since we dont know what it will be called or anything about it or if it will even exist, we are having fun speculating, thanks for understanding

 

[Toytown]

Theres no way in the world it will ever be called the xbox 720. It would indicate to the uneducated mass that the console was only capable of 720p resolutions and thats not something MS is going to want to do.

 

[OAB]

What about simply putting an ultra-large hard drive into the thing, and then "installing" games when you bring them home? You can use any kind of optical disk storage you want.

You could even when you buy your "720" have it come with a special "game installer" (aka: proprietary hard drive or something) that when you bring it into your local EB/Gamestop load an encrypted copy of the game onto the device, you "install" it onto your system and activate it on X-Box Live (similar to Steam). Old games that have not been played would be automatically "deleted" when new games are put on.

Digital distribution (via downloading) is also an option.

Using HD-DVD simply as a distribution method which can't do much except for storing information that is read into the device is also something to be considered.

 

[Cannydog]

I personally don't see the need for One device that does "everything". That usually means it doesn't do anything particularly well, and they then jack up the price. For movies I'm currently using an Upscaling DVD player, and rentals on regular DVDs is down to just over a $1. So I can't see myself opting for BR.

I would think that by the time Microsoft releases their next game console, they will downloadable HD content on XBL. And, from a business standpoint, stevedave's idea sounds about right. >>>

...<snip...
I'm throwing a guess at it having a large Soild state drive 1TB and all games downloadable through a xbox live to stop the used game market and keep profits out of the retail stores. At least this is what I would do if I ran the company.

I wish that wasn't the case because I prefer to buy used, and/or discounted games. And, face the facts, if games don't have media you don't have to worry about "inventory backlog" for the games that no one buys. (For example: I recently bought a copy of Armored Core for Answer for $20, and that's a New copy!). So making everything downloadable is the only solution I fear.

 

[Zellio2009]

Xbox 720 doesn't need bluray like the N64 didn't need cds.

 

[Zellio2009]

Theres no way in the world it will ever be called the xbox 720. It would indicate to the uneducated mass that the console was only capable of 720p resolutions and thats not something MS is going to want to do.

I'm betting all next gen consoles will have 'HD' at the end of their names........

 

[Chombo]

I am going to go ahead and say that it won't have Bluray. Mainly because relying on your direct competitor's optical drive for your system is stupid. Sony charges enough to screw your bottom line and hinder your competitiveness.

If anything they'll make their own propreitary format for games. Or they'll start throwing larger HDDs on their consoles and somehow mask the install process to stick with DVDs.

 

[Oh4Sh0]

There's certainly no reason they have to have it. Although it would be at a bit of a disadvantage to not include it when others are (essentially not being able to market it like they do now, it plays dvds!). But I think Microsoft will not include it, and they can go with a proprietary media format, and include a large hard drive for downloading movies and media.

 

[BettiePage]

Here is a topic that gets everyone all riled up every time it is brought up…Blu-ray on the Xbox. Does the nex-gen Xbox (or current gen for that matter) need Blu-ray to succeed?

LOL Blu-ray's success in doubt? Just what freaken planet is he living on?

BD is a success as the next gen optical format. It is the ONLY format for HD movies on physical media. BD revenue has already far surpassed that of DL, VOD, LD and HD DVD combined. And 3 of those formats has been in use for alot longer than BD has been around.

Unless MS wants to stay with DVD or go DL only... which I doubt, they will need to use BD. What other physical optical media format can they use? HD DVD?! They could always create their own optical storage media to fight piracy... I am sure they have the billions to sink into the R&D for it.

 

[Todd_a]

To tell you the truth, even though game companies were whining about the lack of storage on the DVD in the XBOX-360 I notice no ccompany has had issues with this really and most games still do not come close to filling the disk. With online options and hard drives, then extra content can be added later and stored on the hard drive. I am almost wondering if it is worth having disks much longer. I figure the next consoles are still 2-3 years off and there is little to add to the mix. Yes some HDTV are starting to do 1080p at 120Hz, so that is the cap, but with current XBOX360s and PS3 able to do roughly 30FPS I little issue in systems topping out 60 and some hitting 120Hz with little work. I am thinking that the next generation should work on adding funtionality, power saving, smaller sizes and cheaper prices into the mix. If NetFlix HD works well and BD still is not making big inroads into the market then I think Blu-ray would be a waste. Its days are numbered really.

I think the best idea is a smaller unit with no optical drive, a large hard drive, the latest wireless networking, and wireless devices, controllers, remotes, headsets, blue-tooth devices... For the parts inside, well, run a 32nm version of the current core with a few tweeks and 32nm version of the current GPU core with DX11 added in and a stack of programmable units, crank up the clock speeds a little. Increase the system memory a bunch with a faster bus and memory. Drop in a large hard drive.

All games should be downloaded and stored locally. MS can track what games are owned by what accounts. They can even rent games or have monthly services for games I guess. You can even register your current XBOX360 and transfer them to you new system if you want to play them (as needed). Do not even make wire controller add a few USB ports maybe. Use HDMI primarily. Have all the controller wireless, make a docking station come with every controller that locks together with others. Make them plug directly into the wall so you do not even need to store them by the XBOX. Make it small, quiet, cheap, and cool. They do not need a massive core for the GPU or CPU. 1-2GB of system memory would be nothing. In 2 years a .5-1TB drive would not be out of the question.

 

[BettiePage]

The problem with Blu-ray is

1. That it cost way more than DVD.
2. Sony owns it.
3. The next format is around the corner.

I will stick with inexpensive DVD. The only movies I buy are for my kids and they and I could care less about 1080p.

For manufacturers... the cost to press DVD vs BD is negliable when your talking hundreds of thousands of copies... or millions when your talking Halo.

Sony does not own BD. It is a consortium with the largest patent holder being Panasonic.

As for the next format being around the corner... I've been told we would be a paperless society since forever... but what next format are you talking about? Care to share that info with the number of manufacturers and consumer electronics firms and studios who is supporting it? "Around the corner" is like saying your gonna die one day anyway so why not just walk in front of a train now.

The fact is you need to swap discs for DVD if your playing games... that is so yesterday. Or you limit the scope and design of your games cause you lack the space. These are facts for MS as reported by gaming studios.

Sony makes laptops... guess what it has Vista on it. Business is business. Live has Sony/Columbia movies for download/streaming... guess what it is a business. MS will need to include a higher capacity optical drive for it's next console and that will most likely be BD. They dont have a choice since we do not have the infrastructure to handle DL at the bandwith they need.

 

[Obi_Kwiet]

4.7 GB isn't going to be enough for newer games. PC games these days end up being around 10GB anyway.

 

[Jakalwarrior]

I bet they are trying to think of some method that stops people from selling used games, lending games, etc... Some method that has "DRM" I mean, consumer screwing, built in to it.

Even though I don't touch consoles, personally I would like to see Micros SDHC used. The coolness of having your games be the size of a fingernail would be nice.

 

[Techx]

I like how everyone here is giving their great opinion on how the 720 'doesn't need' blueray, yet none of you are (or at least most of you are not) game developers and probably have very little idea what games will require in terms of storage needs down the road.. shit the devs may not even know.. it's the future lol.. if blue ray becomes the defacto standard for optical storage then they damn well better include it

 

[webdev511]

if they sold the patents around HD-DVD, Microsoft could receive royalties from DVD sales. considering the whole reason for the format war was so Toshiba could keep the money flowing in from the DVD royalties, and the significant losses they took during the format war, I believe Toshiba is going to play it out and next time there is a format war Toshiba will have a new developed technology to WOW use like they did with DVD. Until them it's Sony's turn.

Toshiba wouldn't sell the patents to MS, but they might grant them some really low royalties so the 720 could use TL-51 HD DVD ROM.

I doubt that's going to happen though, because they're likely to use flash and digital downloads for distro.

 

[S-B]

I think they have to have it, just for the storage capacity. Current graphics and sound already are far exceeding the DVD9 standard. The other option would be very large hard drives and forced full game installs like Windows machines, but that gets away from the console simplicity.

This is coming from someone with 10x as many 360 games as PS3 games.

Solid state storage prices are dropping quickly. Heck, even a 500GB hard drive costs less than a new video game! Current generation optical media may not cut it for games.

Blu-ray discs:
- Gotta pay Sony.
- Future in doubt.
+ Lots of storage.
+ Convenient.
+ Doubles as a Blu-ray player.

Hard drives:
- Sensitive, might not be viable for handling by kids unless the physical medium is significantly changed.
+ Very cheap: they could score a deal with manufacturers to buy a shitload of drives with lower capacities for cheap; they could simply do larger drives and users could take these drives to a game store to "top up" a new game, add new content, or simply use it in conjunction with an Internet download service as well.

Solid state drives:
- Fast ones with enough storage space (32GB+) are expensive.
+ Prices are dropping quickly, might be viable by 2011.

Internet:
- Bandwidth costs for both buyer and seller.
- Limited bandwidth.
- Limited monthly traffic for many users.
- Limited storage space.
- Games cannot be had "immediately", unlike physical ones where you can pick them up in store.
+ Games can potentially be had sooner than store releases if they are released online at midnight, whereas stores open in the morning.
+ Cheaper than physical media.
+ DRM less of a problem for the game providers.

Alternative physical media:
- Still nothing viable for the near future (we're talking 2011).

 

[SoulHunter]

Anybody had the idea of using usb flash drives. You would get one when you buy the console, pick you size there is almost no limit. Then there would be distribution centers in the stores and you would pay for the game and then transfer it to your xbox, therefore eliminating the need for all the box's and that stuff... it would end costing everybody less.

 

[dyzophoria]

can't see the need for it, bluray sales are not that enough to force MS to include the drive (yet) in their systems. bluray for the games? there are just very few titles that is limited by the dvd9 standard from what I'm seeing (including ID's next gen game), MS can include it in the future, but what's the rush?

 

[SockMan!]

It's one thing for a customer to buy a game in the store. It's a completely different ballgame when you're manufacturing thousands to millions of game media. Optical disks are the preferred media right now partly because it's so much cheaper than manufacturing cartridges. Flash may be viable now, however I'd imagine that optical media will still be far cheaper to manufacture.

 

[Ferrariman60]

If 64 GB of flash memory gets down under $10 by the time the Xbox 720 is released, that could be an option as well.

You know, I must say, the return of the cartridge never even crossed my mind. But by, what, call it 2011 when the new generation of consoles comes out, 64 GB will be dirt cheap. They'll need a speedy interface, but that shouldn't be a problem. Funny thing how the pendulum swings, isn't it? We ditched cartridges for the capacity of optical discs. Now, I don't see any reason that going back to cartridges is a bad idea by that point. Cool stuff. I know I wouldn't mind cartridges that are small, that'd be nice to use as opposed to discs that you need to worry about scratching, breaking, etc. Interesting to think about.

 

[nilepez]

Here is a topic that gets everyone all riled up every time it is brought up…Blu-ray on the Xbox. Does the nex-gen Xbox (or current gen for that matter) need Blu-ray to succeed?

MS may not offer a BR drive in the 720, but that has nothing to do with the failure of the Blu Ray format. If it was based on an adoption curve, they'd be all over Blu Ray, since it's adoption rate is faster the DVD, which was adopted faster than any other CE format up to that point.

They're not going to offer video downloads with Blu Ray quality, because America doesn't have the bandwidth...and even if we're willing to wait 2 or 3 days to get a game or movie, you'd go over the AT&T cap after a single game or movie. Comcast users could download 4 or 5. And what about the 50% of the country that doesn't have broadband (and may have no interest in getting it)?

Are they going to distribute games on 5 or 10 DVDs? It seems like the savings on Blu Ray drives would get eaten up by increased media prices.

I realize that MS is competing with Sony on game systems, but unless bandwidth increases dramatically, it sure seems like they're just hurting themselves.

Of course maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the 720 games will all fit on a single DVD.

 

[nilepez]

You know, I must say, the return of the cartridge never even crossed my mind. But by, what, call it 2011 when the new generation of consoles comes out, 64 GB will be dirt cheap. They'll need a speedy interface, but that shouldn't be a problem. Funny thing how the pendulum swings, isn't it? We ditched cartridges for the capacity of optical discs. Now, I don't see any reason that going back to cartridges is a bad idea by that point. Cool stuff. I know I wouldn't mind cartridges that are small, that'd be nice to use as opposed to discs that you need to worry about scratching, breaking, etc. Interesting to think about.

That's a fair point, but I think they'd have to get well under $10.00. As I see it, the current media costs maybe a dollar. I don't see them increasing their CoGS by $10.00, just to avoid paying sony a licensing fee that would likely cost less than $10.00 and would certainly be less than $10.00 x 4 games.

 

[Hornet]

I think no one can really predict the success of Blu-Ray right now, and therefore I don't think even MS can predict what are their options by then.

I wouldn't be surprise that the next gen console will be released much later than 2011. With development cost ever rising, its only logical to push current gen console as far as it could go. If I'm not mistaken, Sony did mention something about 10 years or so, which IMO is a little too long, but we won't be far from that. There's no point trying to release a console just for the sake of keeping up with the 5 years cycle.

Maybe MS will adopt Blu-Ray if it is a huge success in several years from now. Or maybe they may even decide to develop and push their own standards. Its hard to say for now whether or not the next gen xbox needs blu-ray, when we don't even know what are their options by then, which IMO, is still years away.

ps: 720 is just silly as a name, lol.

 

[Dreaz]

Needs Blu-Ray? Please.

If anything, Sony needs Microsoft to adapt Blu-Ray. Not vice versa.

 

[yang88she]

@ first I wanted the 720 to have BR, but now I just want BR to go down the betamax route

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

better yet let it have the option to use an external USB BD Drive