bonkrowave
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AARGH! said:
Nope it was Bill Gates.
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Xbox 360: Why would they use a DVD ROM?
- Thread starter azzkikur
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Nope it was Bill Gates.
I see two types of people here. The people who look at something and say,"Meh, it's big enough. We'll never use that much." Then you have the people who say,"Wow, that's really big. Can't wait to see what happens when it's taken advantage of." I personally am one of the latter people. I remember buying my first main stream computer, and being told a 30 GB hard drive was impossible to fill up. Damn, I have more p0rn that that on just one of my hard drives.
Yes, a DVD is big enough today, but what about 2 years from now when games are taking up 15 GBs? It's called future proofing, and I think Microsoft is shooting itself in the foot by not looking into Bluray. Think about it, do you really think Sony would have picked that format if they didnt have some kind of inside info about Bluray being the next big format. I don't see the execs there saying,"Well hell, let's just flip on it. If were wrong, it just means the end for all of us." I don't think so.
The reason Sony has been #1 for so long is great games. If they keep that up, and take advantage of the PS3's hardware, I don't see Microsoft taking the lead anytime soon. Guess we'll see in the next year.
p.s.
Either way, it's a great time to be a gamer!!!!!
Yes, a DVD is big enough today, but what about 2 years from now when games are taking up 15 GBs? It's called future proofing, and I think Microsoft is shooting itself in the foot by not looking into Bluray. Think about it, do you really think Sony would have picked that format if they didnt have some kind of inside info about Bluray being the next big format. I don't see the execs there saying,"Well hell, let's just flip on it. If were wrong, it just means the end for all of us." I don't think so.
The reason Sony has been #1 for so long is great games. If they keep that up, and take advantage of the PS3's hardware, I don't see Microsoft taking the lead anytime soon. Guess we'll see in the next year.
p.s.
Either way, it's a great time to be a gamer!!!!!
backflipper
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azzkikur said:
I think Sony picked Bluray because they are the ones developing the technology.
bonkrowave
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backflipper said:
Exactly, and what better way to bulldoze through a standard, then to have blu-ray in its PS3's.
ThunderGod66
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Wow..so many posts and no one really answered the question yet (I think).
The answer is: Time.
The other formats aren't ready for cost effective mass production and Microsoft wants to have the 360 out before the PS3 and revolution.
(I think).The answer is: Time.
The other formats aren't ready for cost effective mass production and Microsoft wants to have the 360 out before the PS3 and revolution.
ThunderGod66 said:Wow..so many posts and no one really answered the question yet
The answer is: Time.
The other formats aren't ready for cost effective mass production and Microsoft wants to have the 360 out before the PS3 and revolution.
yep. they need this finished by at least november. its still is iffy if blurate of hd will be ready by this christmas.
mastercheeze
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Terpfen said:
Unless you're talking abvout wmv-hd DVDs, you're wrong. A true HD-DVD will NOT play in a standard dvd player, but they have made double sided discs with one side HD-DVD And the other side Dual-Layer DVD.
But seeing as how theres not a compromise yet between the two camps (HD-DVD and BluRay) it would be hard to expect MS to include that. Once they get things ironed out, I'd expect an announcement from both camps. Or maybe I should say, I want them to include capability for the next HD video format so I don't have to pony up $500 for a player plus $400 for an xbox360/ps3. That'd be nice.
peacetilence
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azzkikur said:
I completely agree, I can already see the advantages of blu ray for certain game applications, imagine FMV cut sequences in HD 720p or 1080p completely uncompressed. Or mixing HD video signals with what's going on in game. There is a lot of potential there, and a hell of a lot of room for innovation, which is something Sony has always been good at. .
WickedAngel
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azzkikur said:Yes, a DVD is big enough today, but what about 2 years from now when games are taking up 15 GBs? It's called future proofing, and I think Microsoft is shooting itself in the foot by not looking into Bluray. Think about it, do you really think Sony would have picked that format if they didnt have some kind of inside info about Bluray being the next big format. I don't see the execs there saying,"Well hell, let's just flip on it. If were wrong, it just means the end for all of us." I don't think so.
The reason Sony has been #1 for so long is great games. If they keep that up, and take advantage of the PS3's hardware, I don't see Microsoft taking the lead anytime soon. Guess we'll see in the next year.
p.s.
Either way, it's a great time to be a gamer!!!!!
The reason Sony has been #1 for so long is hype. The PS2 sold off of hype for months and months before a decent game came out.
Games aren't just going to double in size overnight. Most Xbox games don't even come close to taking up half of the space on a DVD, yet now we need several times that space all of the sudden? I don't buy it. None of the games that come out will need more than two DVDs worth of space.
Yeah, just like we'll never need more than a 1ghz processor in our PC's.. Or consoles we'll never need to be more than 64 bit, which is what they said when the Nintendo 64 came out. It's called future proofing, and it is need and should be a priority.WickedAngel said:
peacetilence
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I just thought of something else, from a marketing perspective this is probably a bad idea but not outside the realm of possibility, You can fit one entire 1080p uncompressed movie and that movies game title in one neat package.
EekTheKat said:
Which means PS3 is going to have wicked fast loading times comapred to its cousin. With such large worlds being proposed for the new consoles this is going to be a big factor in the next gen games. Frankly I dont have time to wait for my games to load. (My biggest complaint with most all the PSP games and Half Life 2)
WickedAngel
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azzkikur said:
It's called wasting money and taking a risk.
Even the biggest of games on the PC market (Which are wholly unoptimized and uncompressed) do not take more than the space a single DVD can provide.
Sorry, but your processor comparison is pretty ridiculous. The computer industry is constantly upgrading in hardware and software. That doesn't happen in the console industry.
If a next-gen game requires more than 18 gigs of space it is because the developers know absolutely nothing about compression, and fortunately for us, they actually know quite a bit.
bonkrowave
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peacetilence said:
This is a really interesting idea. DVDs all claim to be more then just a move and chaulk full of features, but when you put it in the machine its the same old behind the scenes and deleted scenes.
I think it would be a great idea to package an entire multimedia experience in one disc. Not only can you watch an entire motion picture in full HD quality, but you can also be part of the action on the game side of things,
Ok.WickedAngel said:
Your just saying the SAME thing over and over. "DVD's are fine, nothing will fill them up". Apparently you don't believe in future proofing. That's your choice. The rest of us are excited about the possibilities of the next gen hardware, coupled with massive amounts of storage. I can tell your a "glass is half empty" type of person.
WickedAngel
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By that logic, why not throw in another GPU, a 400gb HDD, 2gb of XDRAM, and a few more CPUs? They're not needed now, but they will be in the future
Good idea, because NOTHING is ever good enough. If it was, we'd all still be playing Atari.WickedAngel said:By that logic, why not throw in another GPU, a 400gb HDD, 2gb of XDRAM, and a few more CPUs? They're not needed now, but they will be in the future
MH Knights said:
what are you talking about... the HD-DVD uses a microsoft codec to encode the video... if HD-DVD wins, microsoft will make MILLIONS!!!
sit aside and wait till the dust settles.. ROFL, MS is partially responsible for the format war, they are definitely not sitting aside.
After comparing the specs of the PS3 and the X360, I have to say my feelings have changed. I was 100% behind the X360, but the DVD Rom thing is a big negative. I think with Sony's game developer support and the new hardware, they'll probably continue to reign as king.
This kind of reminds me of the Nintendo DS vs. PSP battle. The DS was released first, so people were pretty excited to get one. Then the PSP hit, and it pretty much killed the DS.
This kind of reminds me of the Nintendo DS vs. PSP battle. The DS was released first, so people were pretty excited to get one. Then the PSP hit, and it pretty much killed the DS.
doublejbass
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azzkikur said:
A very educated, supported argument.....NOT! First of all, in Japan, where both systems have been on the market for a longer time, the DS actually has a much larger install base than the PSP. In fact, worldwide, DS' install base is roughly twice the PSP's install base, and Sony missed Q1 projections by about 3 million units due to a weaker domestic launch than expected. DS sales have been excellent, both in Japan and here, where the software support has trailed behind, and last month, in the face of the PSP, Japanese DS sales skyrocketed, by four times, with new colors, and recent innovative software support (like the creative music games and nintendogs). The DS is not being stomped by the PSP at all, in fact, PSP is still trying to match its pace. I would expect similar results as Nintendo brings the innovative software support stateside.
Second, as has been noted multiple times, DS and PSP are not even direct competitors, as Nintendo is said to be rolling out the Game Boy Evolution in 2006. Personally, I have both.
peacetilence
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FluxCap said:Microsoft doesn't take a dump without a plan son.
maybe, but they sure know how to plan dumps.
doublejbass
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WickedAngel said:
So what you're saying is that you can say for sure that no developer will find a way to properly utilize more than 18 gigs of space for a game? (not to mention the 5x faster reads that Blu-Ray provides) Honestly, that is not even SPECIOUS. It's just stupid. Prior to the launch of the Saturn and Playstation, only a few games on SNES ever got larger than 4MB due to memory restrictions. Once those shackles were unleashed, new ideas and new features that would never have been innovated or possible at the SNES memory levels were devised, by the END of the Playstation lifespan, Final Fantasy IX required four CDs. So, ~2.8GB, roughly 700 times the space required by Chrono Trigger. It wasn't the only game to require four CDs, either.
Hell.....NOT moving to optical media is quoted as the demise for Nintendo as the market leader. Their N64 carts were many times larger than the largest SNES cart, but by the end of the generation, the system was left behind, because they couldn't match the new innovations that had been devised on the CD-based systems. The product expanded to fit the space available to the developers.
Early Dreamcast and PS2 games fit easily on one CD. The PS2's lifespan has not even concluded yet, and Xenosaga and GT4 are unable to fit on a DVD5, and Xenosaga, for example, requires about 8 GB, roughly three times the space of the largest PS1 game, or, if you will, THE SPACE AVAILABLE TO THE DEVELOPERS, and there's no reason to think this trend will not continue through the rest of the PS2 generation.
Now, based on historical precedents, we can expect the games of the next generation to jump between 3 and 700 times in terms of space. Even in the most conservative estimate, now we're talking 25GB, which happens to be the capacity of a single-layer blu-ray disc. Or, rather, it's more logical to assume that space usage will jump to fill the space available to the developers, since history indicates that exact trend. Just because you're too peanut-brained to think of any ways to use the space doesn't mean nobody else will. THAT is what we call logic here in the city. Bitches.
WickedAngel
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doublejbass said:
Using the transition from 2D to full-3D to support your argument in this case is about the most asinine thing I have seen on this forum yet. These systems are making a transition from 3D to 3D; there is no drastic change. Hi-definition gaming can be done with good use of shaders, bump-mapping, and normal-mapping; they're not going to need to pack 20gb worth of pure textures onto a disk.
I find it amusing that you would pick Xenosaga to base your argument around, considering it is filled with hours upon hours of cutscenes.
The worse case scenario is that developers will use three dual-layer DVDs for the largest of games. Know what? That will still be cheaper than sinking hundreds of millions of dollars into a format that is unproven and in the middle of a corporate struggle between juggernaughts.
Lean over, take a deep breath, and try to fart; you might dislodge your head from your ass.
doublejbass
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WickedAngel said:
Man, I don't even know why I bother. Did they go from 2D to 3D from PS1 to PS2? No....did they still drastically increase the size of games as I illustrated? Yes....... and what's worse, just because there is no drastic change in GRAPHICS DISPLAY STYLE doesn't mean there won't be other drastic changes in GAME DESIGN that can cause a similar effect on size.
Your assumption that the only place that size will be eaten up is in the already-established arenas of design such as graphic detail clearly comes from a vapid brain which clearly has no expertise in software design.
GT4 too? Considering that the largest PSX games, such as FFIX, primarily used the space on cutscenes as well, I think it's a perfectly valid comparison. Standard, non media-packed games have increased in size from 300-700 MB to 2-4 GB going from 3D to 3D. That's an even more compelling statistic, because a similar extrapolation on the extremes puts games in the 14-30 GB range, which naturally means that EVERY game would span multiple discs.
That is a worse case, you're right. Sony's putting their strongest muscle behind blu-ray by putting it here, but the question of its success does NOT change the fact that XBox is severely limited by not moving to a higher-capacity medium. If game design evolves, and the space is not used on just cutscenes, no longer making it easy to create a game that spans multiple discs, then the outdated, slow, low-capacity data format suddenly finds itself painfully inadequate. Once again, just refer to the N64's cartridge format. Hell, look at GameCube. Third party developers found it crippling to try to port DVD-based games over to the 1.5GB disc on the Cube MUCH earlier in the system's lifecycle than the end. Capcom had to span multiple discs for their RE ports. Clearly that indicates that the rate of growth of standard size requirements was higher than 2x this generation. (3D to 3D) So, then, since non-cutscene-o-rama games are too large to fit on a DVD5 (GT4, Halo 2), the requirements for a similar game in the next generation would be too large to fit on a DVD9.
Don't make me out your stupidity all over this forum because you turned into a little dick when you were confronted with actual logic that clearly pointed out why your arguments are steaming piles of mule crap.
WickedAngel
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doublejbass said:
Sorry, but you missed a step. The industry stepped from CD-ROM to GD-ROM. Then from GD-ROM to DVD. Regardless, the PSX had thousands of polygons on screen; the PS2 had millions. The transition from the Xbox to the Xbox 360 isn't going to be as drastic.
doublejbass said:
Congratulations; you spent an entire paragraph tap-dancing around the subject. Address the facts, please. Bump-mapping, normal-mapping, and shaders are allowing high detail in textures that are otherwise low-resolution. Every one of those features stems from the GPU, not the textures on the disk.
doubledjbass[/u said:
...assuming your little formula holds true, which it won't. Almost every technology-related formula has faltered at some point or another. Even the most famous of these has recently been in question. You're assuming way too much.
I'm glad you brought the Gamecube disks up. They did make porting games from other consoles difficult. They also, however, featured some of the quickest load times and some of the most detailed graphics seen in the current generation. The Wind Waker was gigantic and completely cel-shaded, yet load times were very short. Metroid Prime also. Resident Evil 4 had some of the most detailed environments and shortest load times in the console realm, yet it fit on two minidisks.
Halo 2 wasn't on two disks, by the way. Their extensive "Making-Of" segment was the SE bonus disk.
i personally hated Halo 2
Halo 1 graphics seem better to me. more clear, vivid..
the ps3 has so much processing power, it can support full 1920x1080 gaming
the xbox360 at 1teraflop (vs ps3's 1.8tflops) can only handle 1080i
sure Halo 3 will be nice, and im sure ill be hooked... but hell i think im gonna get a ps3 this time around.
Halo 1 graphics seem better to me. more clear, vivid..
the ps3 has so much processing power, it can support full 1920x1080 gaming
the xbox360 at 1teraflop (vs ps3's 1.8tflops) can only handle 1080i
sure Halo 3 will be nice, and im sure ill be hooked... but hell i think im gonna get a ps3 this time around.
Ocean
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why doesnt microsoft just update to dvd-hd in a few years when it becomes useful dvd wise?
either way it isnt needed yet
but maybe ps3 will need it with all its textures and prerendered texture animations.
either way it isnt needed yet
but maybe ps3 will need it with all its textures and prerendered texture animations.
Have you guys read the latest interview on engadget ? Steve Ballmer clearly states that standard DVD isn't what they're going for right now, they ARE going to use a next-gen optical format; the question is just "Which one?"
I know what the "current" debate in this thread is, but I like my threads with a little bit of On-Topic.
I know what the "current" debate in this thread is, but I like my threads with a little bit of On-Topic.