Unsettling EULA for Quake Live using PunkBuster

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JAM1NG1

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Don't know if this has been remarked on anywhere else but I was registering for Quake Live and decided to read the EULA (ya know, for any surprises) and discovered some lines in the PunkBuster section that I found disturbing:

Licensee further acknowledges and accepts that PunkBuster software may be considered invasive. Licensee understands that PunkBuster software inspects and reports information about the computer on which it is installed to other connected computers and Licensee agrees to allow PunkBuster software to inspect and report such information about the computer on which Licensee installs PunkBuster software. Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by PunkBuster software includes, but is not limited to, Licensee's Internet Protocol Address, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which PunkBuster software is installed. Licensee acknowledges and agrees that if Licensee does not want Licensor to collect and process such information, Licensee should not use the PunkBuster software. Further, Licensee consents to allow PunkBuster software to transfer actual screenshots taken of Licensee's computer during the operation of PunkBuster software for possible publication. Licensee understands that the purpose and goal of PunkBuster is to ensure a cheat-free environment for all participants in online games. Licensee agrees that the invasive nature of PunkBuster software is necessary to meet this purpose and goal. Licensee agrees that any harm or lack of privacy resulting from the installation and use of PunkBuster software is not as valuable to Licensee as the potential ability to play interactive online games with the benefits afforded by using PunkBuster software.
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Considering this discovery and, pending any future changes, I'm not gonna use Quake Live. Though the intention of PunkBuster may be well-intended I just can't support or tolerate these sort of policies where I must compromise my security and privacy for something trivial. I wish the gaming community didn't have to deal with such concerns as invasion of privacy or some rootkit getting installed just to play games on their PCs. Things like this for me, at least, mire something that is just supposed to be just pure fun. ID, please reconsider using PunkBuster.

[H]'ers, what is your stance on such things? Have you also discovered such things before installing a game?
 
PunkBuster has been bullshit from the start. I refuse to purchase any games that require it (several games had it as an optional component, which I'm fine with).
 
I was hoping the PunkBuster for Quake Live was optional but I couldn't see an option to play without it. Does anyone see a way to play without it?
 
I'm glad you spotted this, because I was thinking about trying this out. I won't be now. I usually don't read the whole thing when installing, so I probably would have missed this.
 
Ignorance is bliss...

As long as the game is fun I couldn't care less. Stop being so paranoid. I don't see how this is of any worry to you if you don't cheat.

It can take screenshots of me gaming all it wants, I have nothing to hide.

Its pretty ridiculous to miss out on a bunch of fun games for something to relatively trivial.
 
Basically you're signing your rights away when you run it, they can collect any information about any of your hardware or software.

Somehow punkbuster went from optional anti cheat to constantly running services on your PC, even when not gaming, now I find they have the legal right to basically snoop through my PC, another thing to add to the boycott list I'm afraid.
 
That is very disturbing to read. Basically signing over all rights to your computer to their company. That's indeed nuts. Nice Catch.

-Dill
 
Normally, I would have missed this too. I would expect such things with retail games, ya know? I guess I was a bit curious as to how the whole Quake engine played through a website would work and seeing PunkBuster mentioned a few times just motivated me to waste my oh-so-precious youth on reading the EULA.
 
JAM1NG1 said:
Considering this discovery and, pending any future changes, I'm not gonna use Quake Live.
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I guess you are going to give up all multiplayer gaming then ? :rolleyes:

Nearly all the major online games do similar invasive checks, and has similar jargon hidden in its EULA. Hell the one for WoW is even worse, where in addition to all that it tells blizzard the websites you visited.

Dude all the big fps games (like CS:S, CoD etc), rts games (especially for league play), mmo games (like wow), rpg games etc etc all have anti cheat capabilities built in. Also, if you play in leagues, ladders, competitively etc etc chances are there will be even another client for you to run at the same time as the game, which is even MORE invasive.

I play CS:S competitively and I have always knows that the AC clients are sending screenshots, process information, directory listings, cfg commands etc etc back to the server (depending which league client I'm on atm). Even mixing/pugging clients (like esea or ed) have clients which scan all your shit.

Put on your tinfoil hat and hide in the basement, or just live and let live. They don't care about your hidden folder of german scat porn, they just want to catch/ban as many cheaters/exploiters as they can.
criccio said:
As long as the game is fun I couldn't care less. Stop being so paranoid. I don't see how this is of any worry to you if you don't cheat.

It can take screenshots of me gaming all it wants, I have nothing to hide.

Its pretty ridiculous to miss out on a bunch of fun games for something to relatively trivial.
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Exactly.
 
Start quake live then start some gay porn and hope punkbuster takes some screen shots. Someone has to review those things.
 
Frostex said:
Basically you're signing your rights away when you run it, they can collect any information about any of your hardware or software.
Click to expand...

OMG! Not this crap again. You people are ridiculous.

Seriously? What are you hiding? Child pornography?
 
To Drexion and others of the same opinion:

I'm just informing others of something I've noticed that may be of concern to them and also stating my disappointment that Quake Live (a browser-based game to boot) is resorting to particular measures I'm not comfortable with. Unfortunately, many games require such software and many of us have come to accept or, at least, tolerate such compromises to enjoy said games. Some people are comfortable with that. Some are not. It's not about being paranoid. It's about limits. When does DRM/anti-cheat cross over respectable limits? What is really done with all this information being accumulated? I'm not paranoid (if I was I wouldn't own a computer or cell phone lol ) but, like any average-joe I just question something that seems to cross certain levels of comfort. Ya know, just being naturally concerned. And we could even go further into the negative aspects of such DRM/anti-cheat software on its negative impacts on system performance and overall system/game stability and make other points against the existence of such software but I digress.

There are others like me that don't like having to contend with such things. And yes, I do play a lot of games where I do not have to contend with such issues and appreciate game developers that have changed their DRM/anti-cheat software or use none at all to satisfy their customers. Let's take BioShock for example. Upon initial release I didn't like the whole debacle arising from it's DRM feature. Considering how often I change components on my rig I didn't want to contend with the DRM thinking I was installing the game on another comp and preventing me from playing it (or some other nonsense) so I considered getting the game on a console such as XBox 360. When 2k games removed the DRM from the game I was quite happy. Instead of playing the game in console form I could put my decently-spec'ed rig to good use and play the PC version of the game in a more glorious form. Studios out there do respond to the game community's concerns about bundled software and we just have to let them know. Maybe there is another way of protecting the game and it's gameplay value without resorting to PunkBuster and it's tactics. However, that avenue will not be discovered until we make our opinions known. Informing others that playing Quake Live means agreeing to some form of compromise is but a first step in helping others form an educated opinion and, perhaps, bringing about some kind of positive change.

I wish I could say that's my $0.02 but we all know how expensive copper is these days. lol
 
as long as they dont' take control of my web cam. thats my only fear :p *sets display to clone mode for TV and turns on porn*
 
JAM1NG1 said:
To Drexion and others of the same opinion:
.......
........
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Almost your entire post is about DRM, but DRM is an entirely different issue. Stop bundling the issue of DRM with that of Anti Cheat software. Bioshock wasn't even a multiplayer game - your whining about that DRM may be valid but is not related to this issue.

You also assume that everyone wants to play their multiplayer games without AC software - guess what, most people WANT AC software included in multiplayer games - true they are not 100% foolproof but they catch a large percentage of the kids who randomly download a hack they found on google.
VAC alone has banned more than a hundred thousand CS hackers, and the AC clients used in leagues have caught many hundreds more who cheated in competitive play.

Why don't you head over to steam forums and create a thread "I would prefer if VAC was not included with CS, they have no right to scan my PC!" and see how fast you are laughed out of there.

You ever play a game from Blizzard ? Starcraft ? Diablo ? Warcraft ? WoW ? They ALL use the Warden AC which scans your rig/data and sends all relevant data back to their servers. How about Valve games ? They use VAC2. Or any of the hundreds of games that use punkbuster, or some other custome AC software.

I don't know why you choose quake live to make your point, for the past decade all the major multiplayer games had AC either built in or bundled with it, all using invasive techniques. Hell punkbuster is timid compared to the capabilities of Warden AC.

It isn't a 'compromise' as you put it, I'm willing to bet the vast majority of players of online games want AC in their multiplayer games. Hell, the more intrusive the better, cheaters in online multiplayer games are scum. And again, DRM is a totally different issue, most gamers hate the intrusive DRM and do not want whatsoever.
 
Meh, I don't know what the big deal is. You are on the internet, everything you do is traced by someone, someplace.
 
All AC programs can look at your data and can scan all running programs. How else would they catch the cheats? It does expressly say that you give permission for it to scan to avoid lawsuits where some hacker tries to hurt the company by saying that it scanned private information. The program does not report home unless it finds a cheat of some sort, or finds what it is simply programmed to find.

Give me one example where the use of ANY anti-cheat software compromised the identity/security/integrity of a person/system and I will give in. Until then, I will continue to use my Counter-Strike:Source, Team Fortress 2, Left4Dead, and Crysis; all of which have VAC2 or PunkBuster.
 
Frostex said:
Basically you're signing your rights away when you run it, they can collect any information about any of your hardware.
Click to expand...

Frostex's Sig said:
Core 2 Duo Q9450 @ 3.6Ghz
4Gb PC2-8400 Corsair @ 1,800Mhz
2x Sapphire 4870 in Crossfire
300Gb Velociraptor 10,000 RPM Primary
1Tb Western Digital Archive1
1Tb Western Digital Archive2
Asus Xonar D2X PCI-e soundcard
Dell 3007 WFP-HC 30" Widescreen
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
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:rolleyes:
 
criccio said:
Ignorance is bliss...
Stop being so paranoid. I don't see how this is of any worry to you if you don't cheat.
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It's even less a worry to those who do cheat.

Other than screenshots, it doesn't sound any worse than Microsoft's EULA.
 
Diesel_Power said:
OMG! Not this crap again. You people are ridiculous.

Seriously? What are you hiding? Child pornography?
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Are you insane or something?

This is MY personal computer, I have personal things on it which may include sensitive information about myself. What I have on my computer is my business and no one elses, being able simply read off any files on your PC and do whatever they want with the information is completely unacceptable.
 
I'm not really worried about the eula, just their past record of incompetence ruining this game. you know any devs that let punkbuster handle their anti cheat are just going to cause problems for non cheaters, while doing nothing against real exploits. also those 2 services they installed with the plugin piss me off, they are always running even when your browser/plugin aren't. bunch of amateurs, I predict an epidemic of cheating to ruin this game before it ever comes out of beta. it's been causing problems with joining/kicking already before they even went public.
 
Frostex said:
Are you insane or something?

This is MY personal computer, I have personal things on it which may include sensitive information about myself. What I have on my computer is my business and no one elses, being able simply read off any files on your PC and do whatever they want with the information is completely unacceptable.
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Encryption..

Also..
The PunkBuster anti-cheat system will not attempt to permanently retain information about users' systems other than standard logging of connection and authentication / inspection activities. We encourage any and all auditing or monitoring of the activity of our system for the purpose of verifying that our software performs according to this Policy Statement. We will cooperate fully with any party who believes that they have found any case where our system is being or could be used to breach the privacy of the users of our software.
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Our inspection procedures consist of three types: 1) validating that only non-hacked original software is being used during multiplayer competition, 2) examining files that match the profile (or signature) of known cheating programs, and 3) sending screen captures during gameplay. Our software does not, nor will it ever, without the explicit consent of users, make changes to any non-PunkBuster files on users' systems (such consent would be received through a confirmation action within the PunkBuster software and not as part of our Software Terms). Furthermore, our software will not perform "hard disk scans" looking through large portions of users' directories and/or file systems.
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http://www.evenbalance.com/index.php?page=privacy.php


The original post conveniently forgot to include the rest of the quote and is probably just looking to start shit.
 
The only question I have, what keeps the companies who use such software ethical? Who watches them to make sure they are doing only what they claimed to do?

I'd be happier if there was an authoritative agency that double-checked the claims and made sure the companies are using the information as intended.

of course some might claim that's what the law is for but lololol. The law can't even keep up with torrents or digital copyrights.
 
The only thing that really annoys me about Punk Buster is that it's always running. Why is that even necessary? Crank it up when the game starts.
 
djoye said:
The only thing that really annoys me about Punk Buster is that it's always running. Why is that even necessary? Crank it up when the game starts.
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Cause it such a resource hog... :rolleyes:


Paranoid, all of you.

....except the sensible ones. :)
 
I would much rather have more cheaters, because once the CIA receives the information that Punkbuster gets off my PC, I am bound to be arrested on espionage charges.
 
criccio said:
Ignorance is bliss...

As long as the game is fun I couldn't care less. Stop being so paranoid. I don't see how this is of any worry to you if you don't cheat.

It can take screenshots of me gaming all it wants, I have nothing to hide.

Its pretty ridiculous to miss out on a bunch of fun games for something to relatively trivial.
Click to expand...

Some people don't like signing over their rights to their computer willy nilly for no good reason. I guess you do, so have fun with that.
 
Technoob said:
Some people don't like signing over their rights to their computer willy nilly for no good reason. I guess you do, so have fun with that.
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Its not like I'm going to "have fun with that" or the opposite, it just doesn't matter either way. I play a game, I quit a game, I keep on living my life, its just ridiculous that you all look so far into it. I could care less who out there knows some weird shit I look at on the internet.
 
Diesel_Power said:
OMG! Not this crap again. You people are ridiculous.

Seriously? What are you hiding? Child pornography?
Click to expand...
Please share all the files on your computer and post your IP address here so we can peruse your machine.

Seriously. What are you hiding? Child pornography?
 
criccio said:
Its not like I'm going to "have fun with that" or the opposite, it just doesn't matter either way. I play a game, I quit a game, I keep on living my life, its just ridiculous that you all look so far into it. I could care less who out there knows some weird shit I look at on the internet.
Click to expand...

I suppose if you ever get pulled over by a cop you let him go through your trunk, glove compartment, wallet, search you, etc. You have nothing to hide. Leave your windows and doors open when you're home or not at home? What do you have to hide? Trusting folks who don't trouble themselves with their privacy make it that much easier for governments and private companies to just keep on taking it away.
 
jimmyb said:
Please share all the files on your computer and post your IP address here so we can peruse your machine.

Seriously. What are you hiding? Child pornography?
Click to expand...

Yeah. The only reason anyone could have for not doing this right now by their own logic is apparently that they have child porn.
 
djoye said:
The only thing that really annoys me about Punk Buster is that it's always running. Why is that even necessary? Crank it up when the game starts.
Click to expand...

Yeah that annoys me too. They added it so Punkbuster could have full functionality on games being played with users without administrator rights. When you're not playing a punkbuster related game, it serves zero purpose. When you play games as admin anyway, it's ultimately pointless as a service as well. I don't care if it's inactive and only taking up 100KB of RAM, it shouldn't be running period unless a game initiated it. Then when you're done playing it should close. I don't like my taskman cluttered with pointless shit.

I could make a .bat file to start/stop the service whenever I play a game but honestly, that shouldn't be necessary.

/end rant
 
PornoSatan said:
Yeah that annoys me too. They added it so Punkbuster could have full functionality on games being played with users without administrator rights. When you're not playing a punkbuster related game, it serves zero purpose. When you play games as admin anyway, it's ultimately pointless as a service as well. I don't care if it's inactive and only taking up 100KB of RAM, it shouldn't be running period unless a game initiated it. Then when you're done playing it should close. I don't like my taskman cluttered with pointless shit.

I could make a .bat file to start/stop the service whenever I play a game but honestly, that shouldn't be necessary.

/end rant
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I will say that I too agree with this. I am not a fan of it just running there, but I guess it was a somewhat decent idea so that there are no errors or slowdowns when loading the game.

But there should at least be an option to run on startup and/or exit on game exit.
 
This is disconcerting, but, then again, this is PunkBuster. PunkBuster is nine parts intrusive for every single part effective. I suppose it's worth it for id -- I don't really know.

This kind of thing doesn't concern me so long as I consent to it. They're free to search the files on my drives and report on what web sites I visit. They can't touch the data inside my encrypted volumes nor determine what sites I'm visiting when I'm surfing via Tor. Everything else they can go nuts with.

Anyone here want a printout of the directories and files on my drives or an export of my search history? Anyone?
 
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