Apple Sued Over Mandatory Employee Bag Checks

magoo said:
Again, if you are standing in line at the end of the day, you ain't working, therefore should not get paid.
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If my employer wants me to spend my time standing in line then that is what they can pay me to do. If they don't want to pay me for that time then do not require it.

My time is as valuable to me, perhaps even more so, than the hourly rate that the employer has agreed to pay me.

Even at my stage in my career if I am on call and get busy over a weekend. You can bet your bottom dollar I'm taking a free day off during the week to compensate for the time lost to my family.

If an employer has a required activity for an employee that employee better damn well be paid for it.


And to the other person saying that someone wasn't a long term employee because they used their rights. BS. They may be watched closely for other errors but I bet they have never ever been fired for taking breaks being the cause.
 
magoo said:
So, if you work for a big company, and let's say it takes you 15 minutes a day each way to get into the parking lot and out to go home; you'd like to be compensated for that too?

How about the hour early (or more) you have to get up to get ready for work?

Commute?

Fuck these idiots. They know the rules. They get searched. Tough shit. Quit.

So you want to get paid while waiting for security to check and make sure you don't rip off your employer? hehehe, that's funny.:eek:
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You only have this stance because you didn't have to wait 30 minutes for a bag check at the end of your shift.

Stop being ridiculous & grow up.
 
If you can't do something that prime marathon runners do now days by not using backpacks then don't bring one.
 
CMadki4 said:
Remind me to never hire you. You're just the kind of guy I let go all the time for thinking you're above everything and have zero ability to adapt or be flexible.
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Remind me to not work for you. Sounds like you are at a company that likes to treat their employees like crap.

My wife has worked at a place like that, and so have I. I completely understand the post that you replied to.
 
Krenum said:
You only have this stance because you didn't have to wait 30 minutes for a bag check at the end of your shift.

Stop being ridiculous & grow up.
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You don't know me, you don't know what I do or did or might do.

I am fully grown up, thank you.

I take this stance because I've been there in the past and didn't cry like a little baby, or worse SUE someone over it.

Fucking entitlement generation. You are the one who needs maturation.
 
magoo said:
So, if you work for a big company, and let's say it takes you 15 minutes a day each way to get into the parking lot and out to go home; you'd like to be compensated for that too?

How about the hour early (or more) you have to get up to get ready for work?

Commute?

Fuck these idiots. They know the rules. They get searched. Tough shit. Quit.

So you want to get paid while waiting for security to check and make sure you don't rip off your employer? hehehe, that's funny.:eek:
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I work on Base. Pre-911, it took me 10 minutes to go door-to-door from my home to work (2 1/2 miles). Post-911, on some days it takes 1 hour, all because of backups at the gate for security inspections (even leaving can be a chore sometimes; I've had forty minutes to get OFF base, less than half a mile). My command says "Doesn't matter, that's YOUR time, not ours... you don't start work until you walk in the building".

And that's the US Government's official stand. I don't think these guys can win their case.
 
Aluisious said:
You're going to get sued by an employee one day, and you'll deserve it.
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As I said, the rules and policies are clearly spelled out.
If someone doesn't like them, they need not apply.:D

Have never been sued for that in over 25 years.:D
 
magoo said:
And yes, I fire people like the guy who was bitching about working on his lunch hour. We are a small business and the people here realize, if we don't make money....no one gets paid.
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Now it is a different matter if you list the breaks as Possible or "as permitted". But if you state in your documentation for employees that they get a 15 minute break every 2 hours and a lunch break or food break at every 4 hours, you damn sure better be delivering. To not deliver is to deny your employees a benefit that you promised them at the time of hire.
 
magoo said:
Again, if you are standing in line at the end of the day, you ain't working, therefore should not get paid.
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If you're requiring that I stick around at the end of my shift and stand in a line, you better believe you'll be paying me.

Otherwise, if you don't require it, I won't be waiting around in a line and we don't have an issue.
 
They have to pay your hourly wages when you are being searched. I worked a warehouse shipping job when I was 18 and they searched people daily, but before they clocked out.

Hell, almost all mall style retail jobs do this when their merchandise is expensive. It's not a big deal.
 
RGMBill said:
I work on Base. Pre-911, it took me 10 minutes to go door-to-door from my home to work (2 1/2 miles). Post-911, on some days it takes 1 hour, all because of backups at the gate for security inspections (even leaving can be a chore sometimes; I've had forty minutes to get OFF base, less than half a mile). My command says "Doesn't matter, that's YOUR time, not ours... you don't start work until you walk in the building".

And that's the US Government's official stand. I don't think these guys can win their case.
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Passing through a security checkpoint on a base is not the same thing. Is the base your employer, or someone on the base? You're commuting to work.

Apple has got the employees stuck waiting in the store, to be searched by other employees. That's not a commute, that's job duties.
 
RGMBill said:
I work on Base. Pre-911, it took me 10 minutes to go door-to-door from my home to work (2 1/2 miles). Post-911, on some days it takes 1 hour, all because of backups at the gate for security inspections (even leaving can be a chore sometimes; I've had forty minutes to get OFF base, less than half a mile). My command says "Doesn't matter, that's YOUR time, not ours... you don't start work until you walk in the building".

And that's the US Government's official stand. I don't think these guys can win their case.
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Different story here. Commute time is NOT considered working time. Nobody does that. It is your skin in the game so to speak. But there are some interesting laws about commuting. For instance if you are within an hour window in some states while not on the clock if you are injured that is covered under workers comp. You wouldn't be in that situation if not for the employer.
 
magoo said:
As I said, the rules and policies are clearly spelled out.
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I will back you up on this. If you have clearly stated that employees do not get breaks then you have made yourself somewhat protected depending on the state in which you do business.

But depending on the location it could very well also damn you if something comes up in a court of law as much as it sucks. I am sure you have already legally vetted your policies though.
 
magoo said:
You don't know me, you don't know what I do or did or might do.

I am fully grown up, thank you.

I take this stance because I've been there in the past and didn't cry like a little baby, or worse SUE someone over it.

Fucking entitlement generation. You are the one who needs maturation.
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Apple is fucking entitled, helping themselves to an extra half hour per day for every employee without paying them. Like it's going to break their bank account.

There's something wrong with you. "Fucking these people, fucking those people, I'd fire blah blah blah." Yeah I'll bet you're a real delight to work for.
 
It's interesting seeing the different responses to this. You can totally tell who the corporate employees are and who the business owners are.

I think Apple should respond to this by making all their employees salaried and require this to be part of their day.
 
boss99 said:
It's interesting seeing the different responses to this. You can totally tell who the corporate employees are and who the business owners are.

I think Apple should respond to this by making all their employees salaried and require this to be part of their day.
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Doesn't work in California. You can't just call anyone here salaried and then help yourself to unpaid overtime. There are qualifications for exempt employee status. Retail sales people are never going to get over that bar.
 
boss99 said:
It's interesting seeing the different responses to this. You can totally tell who the corporate employees are and who the business owners are.

I think Apple should respond to this by making all their employees salaried and require this to be part of their day.
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I doubt many would agree to salaried wages for this type of job. Just pay people for their times and there would be no legitimate room for complaint.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
I doubt many would agree to salaried wages for this type of job. Just pay people for their times and there would be no legitimate room for complaint.
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Yep, schedule them an extra 30 minutes, and leave a punchclock at the front of the line, once your bag is checked , clock out.

If not, and you are making your employees wait on their time. Then Apple should be punished and compensation should be handed out.
 
Also consider, maybe if their people were getting paid to wait for check, the process would be sped along.

If you've got people hanging around and you aren't paying them, why give a shit about the efficiency of the process?

Bet these checks would be 5-10 minutes if it was on the clock.
 
I can see mandatory bag searches, but the real issue isn't the searching, it is the incompetence that requires it to take more than 5 minutes to get through security. Anything more than 5-10 minutes and it should be on the clock.

As for suing, that may have been their only option. Unfortunately, as someone else already mentioned, our current work environment sucks for the employee and just by looking at this thread you can already see both management and non-management views saying "if you don't like it, leave". Unfortunately, you also have the increasing mentality of "we don't care what you think" and "there are 100 people waiting to take your spot." Ideally, you have a problem with a policy, you take it up with your management, then HR. When it keeps falling on deaf ears... you aren't left with a lot of options if management is too bullheaded or "high and mighty" to see the problem and work on a solution.

As for the comments of "I would have fired someone like that" or "I wouldn't hire someone like that", just remember, flexibility is a two-way street. A lot of companies could learn a thing or two by practicing the "golden rule" and treating their employees how they would want to be treated. Personally, I work doing what I love so working extra hours, through lunch, on vacation, etc. isn't a big deal. Heck, I had to connect to work and fix a couple things from a hospital room the evening my wife gave birth to our first child! However, for my flexibility, I fully expect the company I work for to be flexible. If I have to leave for an appointment, I expect to be able to make my time up after hours/weekend/etc. If I have a sick kid and have to stay home, I expect to be able to work from home or catch an extra shift during the week.

I've know I've been lucky. I couldn't have ever worked for a company that treated everyone like they were a possible criminal or expected work flexibility without returning an equal amount of flexibility just because they write a check for your time.
 
So to sum up one side of the argument: "My last employer stole time for which I had a legal right to compensation, so everyone else should just shut up and get screwed too."
 
I worked at a large computer retailer in the mid 90s. Bag searches were standard when leaving. Even the store manager had to have his briefcase checked on his way out the door. It took only a minute or two for the search.
 
Aluisious said:
Passing through a security checkpoint on a base is not the same thing. Is the base your employer, or someone on the base? You're commuting to work.

Apple has got the employees stuck waiting in the store, to be searched by other employees. That's not a commute, that's job duties.
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The US Navy is my employer, directly, as I'm a US Navy Civilian Scientist. The US Navy is the owner of the base, directly. The US Navy employs either the Guards or the Military Personnel who man the gate, directly.

So, yes, yes it is indeed the EXACT SAME THING. You're "They're searching bags!" is EXACTLY the same as "They're searching every car and person leaving base, with dogs and mirrors."

And you better bet that when they are holding M16 rifles, pistols, SAWs, and large guard dogs, and are stopping cars both coming AND going that it's part of my job duties. And the US Government says "But you don't get paid for that."

And forty minutes leaving the base because THEY'VE CLOSED THE GATE and aren't letting people leave (which then effects whether I can get my daughter to dance lessons, or her violin lessons, or to meet my wife, or to get to a Doctor's appointment where they will charge me for missing my appointment or being late) is a direct result.

And with all that, I accept that as part of what it takes for me to do my job. Hell, the Government just decided to take 20% of my pay (without requiring me to work less) for 6, 8 or 11 weeks (it's probable that it will drop to 8 as of last night, and possibly as low as 6). And I have to take THAT. As a Scientist, I can't exactly "Turn it off" as to what I do... it's not like I'm providing Tech Support, or Data Processing, where time at work=time working. Some of my most interesting breakthroughs over the last few years have occurred in the Shower, or over the weekends after being able to digest the results of previous experiments and work. My current work right now would be impossible without ideas that I came up with "on my own time". And I'm expected to continue to do that, but for less money and with less time in our labs.
 
That's because your ass belongs to the government if you're in the armed services.
 
magoo said:
So, if you work for a big company, and let's say it takes you 15 minutes a day each way to get into the parking lot and out to go home; you'd like to be compensated for that too?

How about the hour early (or more) you have to get up to get ready for work?

Commute?

Fuck these idiots. They know the rules. They get searched. Tough shit. Quit.
Click to expand...
Yeah the difference is your examples involve going from your job to home or vice versa. This is keeping people at work for work related business and then not paying them. "Ok I'm going home it's quitting time" "Ok bye... oh BTW there's one more thing I want you to do but not get paid to do it..."


What Apple needs to do is simply pay off all these workers for past lost wages, then stagger the time when people leave so there isn't a 30 minute wait.
 
RGMBill said:
The US Navy is my employer, directly, as I'm a US Navy Civilian Scientist. The US Navy is the owner of the base, directly. The US Navy employs either the Guards or the Military Personnel who man the gate, directly.

So, yes, yes it is indeed the EXACT SAME THING. You're "They're searching bags!" is EXACTLY the same as "They're searching every car and person leaving base, with dogs and mirrors."

And you better bet that when they are holding M16 rifles, pistols, SAWs, and large guard dogs, and are stopping cars both coming AND going that it's part of my job duties. And the US Government says "But you don't get paid for that."

And forty minutes leaving the base because THEY'VE CLOSED THE GATE and aren't letting people leave (which then effects whether I can get my daughter to dance lessons, or her violin lessons, or to meet my wife, or to get to a Doctor's appointment where they will charge me for missing my appointment or being late) is a direct result.

And with all that, I accept that as part of what it takes for me to do my job. Hell, the Government just decided to take 20% of my pay (without requiring me to work less) for 6, 8 or 11 weeks (it's probable that it will drop to 8 as of last night, and possibly as low as 6). And I have to take THAT. As a Scientist, I can't exactly "Turn it off" as to what I do... it's not like I'm providing Tech Support, or Data Processing, where time at work=time working. Some of my most interesting breakthroughs over the last few years have occurred in the Shower, or over the weekends after being able to digest the results of previous experiments and work. My current work right now would be impossible without ideas that I came up with "on my own time". And I'm expected to continue to do that, but for less money and with less time in our labs.
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So wait you are a scientist for the government who is an hourly employee?

Otherwise.. your point is completely without merit even as a vague comparison.
 
CMadki4 said:
Remind me to never hire you. You're just the kind of guy I let go all the time for thinking you're above everything and have zero ability to adapt or be flexible.
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Remind me to never work for you... As apparently you're just the kinda of douchebag who thinks you own your employees.

Frankly I have no problem finding jobs, and every time I've left one they attempt to convince me to stay...

It's a bit different if you're working for salary, but if you're an hourly paid employee it's very simple and black and white.

Laws are laws. Rights are rights.

Employees are not your slaves.
 
Grimlaking said:
So wait you are a scientist for the government who is an hourly employee?

Otherwise.. your point is completely without merit even as a vague comparison.
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All non-SES employees are "Hourly" even when in fact we operate as if we are salaried (I'm technically not GS, as I'm in a special pay grade outside that, but it equates to GS, and while OPM likes to display GS rates as Salary, they compute as Hourly). Therefore, I'm "owed" Comp-time when I have to travel. However, I'm expected to get my job done at my alloted pay rate, as my job status is "Salaried". That allows the Government to get the bst of both worlds, except for that Comp Time.... I get paid for 80 hours (normally) every two weeks, and work until my work is done. However, they can reduce my paycheck by saying "Don't come in on Friday! Have it done on Thursday, instead."

And even my raises aren't allowed under Sequester, since we don't get Step Raises, we get Continuing Pay awards. And monetary awards aren't being allowed this year.

So, this year, my research saved $3.5M/year going forward. Over the last five years, my current project projects to save $240M in the next twenty years (conservatively; I'm actually thinking that it could end up being >$600M, based on something that came across my desk recently). I got $9K/year in raises, plus a check for $800 and a patent. And this year, they take back $4500. Plus an 40 minutes a day on average in wait at the gate time. At least I can think and plan during that time.
 
Cmon you guys, this is huritng the job creators. We all know apple can't afford to pay people for their forced overtime.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Yeah the difference is your examples involve going from your job to home or vice versa. This is keeping people at work for work related business and then not paying them. "Ok I'm going home it's quitting time" "Ok bye... oh BTW there's one more thing I want you to do but not get paid to do it..."


What Apple needs to do is simply pay off all these workers for past lost wages, then stagger the time when people leave so there isn't a 30 minute wait.
Click to expand...

That is a great solution. Or hire more security guys.

RGMBill said:
US Navy CIVILIAN Scientist. They didn't Furlough the Military, only the Civilians who work directly for the Military.
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Been there, know exactly what you mean. Sometimes really, sometimes really bad.
 
RGMBill said:
All non-SES employees are "Hourly" even when in fact we operate as if we are salaried (I'm technically not GS, as I'm in a special pay grade outside that, but it equates to GS, and while OPM likes to display GS rates as Salary, they compute as Hourly). Therefore, I'm "owed" Comp-time when I have to travel. However, I'm expected to get my job done at my alloted pay rate, as my job status is "Salaried". That allows the Government to get the bst of both worlds, except for that Comp Time.... I get paid for 80 hours (normally) every two weeks, and work until my work is done. However, they can reduce my paycheck by saying "Don't come in on Friday! Have it done on Thursday, instead."

And even my raises aren't allowed under Sequester, since we don't get Step Raises, we get Continuing Pay awards. And monetary awards aren't being allowed this year.

So, this year, my research saved $3.5M/year going forward. Over the last five years, my current project projects to save $240M in the next twenty years (conservatively; I'm actually thinking that it could end up being >$600M, based on something that came across my desk recently). I got $9K/year in raises, plus a check for $800 and a patent. And this year, they take back $4500. Plus an 40 minutes a day on average in wait at the gate time. At least I can think and plan during that time.
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Allow me to bow and say. Thank you for your contribution to our country, because you sure as shit are not being compensated fairly for it.
 
RGMBill said:
The US Navy is my employer, directly, as I'm a US Navy Civilian Scientist. The US Navy is the owner of the base, directly. The US Navy employs either the Guards or the Military Personnel who man the gate, directly.

So, yes, yes it is indeed the EXACT SAME THING. You're "They're searching bags!" is EXACTLY the same as "They're searching every car and person leaving base, with dogs and mirrors."

And you better bet that when they are holding M16 rifles, pistols, SAWs, and large guard dogs, and are stopping cars both coming AND going that it's part of my job duties. And the US Government says "But you don't get paid for that."

And forty minutes leaving the base because THEY'VE CLOSED THE GATE and aren't letting people leave (which then effects whether I can get my daughter to dance lessons, or her violin lessons, or to meet my wife, or to get to a Doctor's appointment where they will charge me for missing my appointment or being late) is a direct result.

And with all that, I accept that as part of what it takes for me to do my job. Hell, the Government just decided to take 20% of my pay (without requiring me to work less) for 6, 8 or 11 weeks (it's probable that it will drop to 8 as of last night, and possibly as low as 6). And I have to take THAT. As a Scientist, I can't exactly "Turn it off" as to what I do... it's not like I'm providing Tech Support, or Data Processing, where time at work=time working. Some of my most interesting breakthroughs over the last few years have occurred in the Shower, or over the weekends after being able to digest the results of previous experiments and work. My current work right now would be impossible without ideas that I came up with "on my own time". And I'm expected to continue to do that, but for less money and with less time in our labs.
Click to expand...

So you work for the government and yet have never noticed that the first thing they do when making a law is to exempt themselves from it?
 
magoo said:
Again, if you are standing in line at the end of the day, you ain't working, therefore should not get paid.
Click to expand...

So it would be equally fair to not pay store employees if it was a slow day and there were no customers. You are just standing there, even if required to be there for 8 hours. It's not working, it's just waiting for possible customers.
 
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