BFGTech GeForce 7800 GS OC AGP Gaming Evaluation

[Brent_Justice]

I really feel it should have been called the 7600 GS, that's my opinion. It isn't in the same caliber as the 7800 series performance wise.

 

[ccbutler]

the shortness of the review and lack of graphs truly points to the objective nature of the reviewer. I admit that i do agree with your opinion of the card, you really don't leave any chance for the reader to decide for themselves. Don't mean to hash, i did enjoy your review.

I do agree with Brent 100%, naming it a 7800 is some dirty pool

But allas, the point is quite moot as the niche of this card is small (and shrinking).

Did you have trouble fitting this card in your test rig? It looks like one of the bigger AGP cards on the market.

 

[InorganicMatter]

From what I hear, it's the same physical size as a 6800GT.

 

[Frank DC]

If you have a 9800 Pro/5950 or less, why would you spend $350 on this? $400 will get you a 7800GT and new PCI-E motherboard.

But it won't recover the $300 investment I made in high-end DDR memory last year, or the $250 I spent on a top-end S478 mobo. Oh yeah, and since no PCI-E boards worth buying have 5 PCI slots I'll need to chuck the $3K I've spent in U320 SCSI controllers and drives. Oh, and the $400 sound card too.

And on and on.

If PCI-E works for you, great. But they'll have to pry this IC7-G from my cold dead hands before I'll let it go, at least for the next 2-3 years.

 

[FrgMstr]

Random comments:

- Card naming continues to get worse! The distinction between 6600 & 6800 is far clearer than between 7800 GS/GT/GTX. This card should be a 7600.

- Some idea of OCing's real-world boost would help the review. I understand why you don't show this, Kyle, but it would match your "we show actual gameplay results" approach.

- The comparison cards left a bit of a hole, IMO. If you showed a cheaper card smacking the 7800 GS around, EVERYONE would understand that PCIe is the way to go. I'd suggest an X800 GTO2.

- I'm still AGP with a 9800 Pro, and upgrade plans are on hold until M2 dual-core. When that comes, I'd like to spend $200ish on the vidcard. If I can't, I'll get a mobo with 6150-level video until I can. Expensive AGP cards are a joke in 2006, regardless of performance.

Noted and agreed on naming.

My ePenis06 went from a fairly firm 3048 to a fully engorged 3489 with the OCing. My 6800GT ePenis came in at a floppy 2311. I started to put the scores in the eval, but they just did not seem to ring true with the performance I was getting in real world gaming. Anyway, there they are, and I am sure they are a value to some of you.

 

[unohoo]

LOL. Maybe according to number sequence, but not in performance. This card is slower than an x850xt

Really? Hmmm...

http://ckturbo128.proboards4.com/index.cgi?board=computerhardware&action=display&thread=1138544120

 

[Servant of Shodan]

I like the short version review for a card like this that is little more than a *blah* version of the "new" GeForce. I also like the harsh intro. Tell it like it is brotha!
My only issue is that I would still like to see a few fps comparisons & graphs comparing identical settings. I know Kyle, Steve & Brent's argument that it is not truly apples-to-apples, and that overall acceptable experience is the bottom line -- and I mostly agree; but I would still like to see some raw, [H]ard numbers...probably something to do with my EE/CS background.
Finally, one of the questions we always hear is, "How does this card compare with a [insert older card name]?" Sometimes this will be something as absurd as an FX5700 or a Radeon 9250 compared to a 6800ultra, but sometimes it will be a top-of-the-line card from two generations ago. If somebody asks how a 7800GS AGP compares to a Radeon 9800xt or x800, it's a pretty reasonable question -- a gamer with a previous top end card is interested in a new top end card. I would like to see how a new video card compares to card of a similar caliber, but from a generation or two back. I think this would be especially helpful for reviews of new generation mid to low-end cards to see how they compare against the high-end cards of yesterday.
Having never conducted a video card review for publication myself, this might be asking for something that would take a ton of extra work. If so, please excuse my lack of knowledge, but I still think such comparisons would be very interesting and useful for folks around here.

 

[FrgMstr]

Another thought. Anybody heard of any of these unlocking pipes?

Obviously this would make the situation much different, but I dont think with NVIDIA being this stingy with the pipelines is going to make it easy or possible at all. They are still smarting from selling all those Ti4200s that would blaze at Ti4600 speeds.

 

[FrgMstr]

I'd like to see min/avg/max framerates. I dont even need a graph.

And on the topic of the card, I'm wondering about the market for this card - I just spent $120 upgrading from a Ti4200 to a 6600GT (agp of course) and I was hesitant to spend that much because I plan on a big overhaul at the end of the year. I think if I were going to spend $$$ on a video card, I might as well just replace the whole shebang and get a new mobo, proc, RAM and video.

And its very annoying to see a $20-$50 price premium on AGP cards the past few months. I see deals for a cheap x800 or 6800GT and its PCI-E and not AGP.

This was a good experiement that surely went far to the left in terms of hardware evaluations and I think you could say we fully represent the left in the hardware world already. I think we need to start putting even less emphasis on framerates, but I agree, mins and avgs need to be represented. I am not sure what good max frame rates are actually.

You probably made a good purchase with the 6600 in terms of perfomance and price.

 

[FrgMstr]

Worst excuse i ever heard for not doing a full review, all other websites are doing full reviews with purty graphs. Telling me that this game is "playable" at this res with this feature on is only your opinion, some people might not think 30fps is playable and want 60fps. So your short little review doesnt tell those people much.
Even your x1600 review had more info, and that card is even more useless/slow then the 7800gs.

Roger that, thanks for the feedback. I can appreciate where you are coming from on this. On a good note, at least we did not give you 13 pages of worthless?!?!?

 

[FrgMstr]

I would of like to see BF2 and CS:S over SS2. But in the end I got what I was looking for.

<edit>

It would of been a lot more usefull to have added direct comparison with the X850XT, also how loud is it? One would assume that it beeing based upon the G70 core that it would run cooler and thus be quieter.

I was a moment away from CS:S and I decided against it at the last minute. Brent and I have disucessed this some lately, and it overall it comes down to resources and covering what we think is a lot more stressful. I still struggle with the CS:S issue though. I love playing CS at huge res with all the eye candy turned on. It just rocks.

The X850XT is a leaf blower compared to the 7800GS. I don't think I once realized the 7800GS was even making any noise and it was not in a case.

 

[FrgMstr]

If I was in the market for a stripped to the bone, no charts, 1 page review I'd look somewhere else. That has to be the poorest showing I've EVER seen [H]ardOCP do for anything. I've seen editorials that were 3-4 pages long touching on simple subjects and yet for what's arguably the best AGP card to be released in living memory we get 1 page with a minimum of pics of the card and a couple of screen grabs. It looks like something cobbled together by a 16yr old in his parents basement.

Duly noted sir. I do try my best to keep my editorial ramblings down to 2 pages at least. But generally there is more to talk about than what the 7800GS was about!

 

[FrgMstr]

Wow, it's a die shrunk 6800 Ultra with some GF7 features and a little faster memory. Boo, Hiss! If you already have a 6800GT+, or X800XT+, why would you buy this card?

If you have a 9800 Pro/5950 or less, why would you spend $350 on this? $400 will get you a 7800GT and new PCI-E motherboard.

This isn't salvation for AGP users, this is a stopgap

I tried to make the die shrunk 6800 point without fully coming out and saying it, although I was close to it. To be fair though transparency SSAA shined in BF2 and HDR did make an impact in SS2. But if you are about fast framerates and gameplay and not the eye candy, this card is NOT a good value for you.

 

[ryankenn]

The review is all I really NEED to make a decision, but I would have like a direct comparo with a couple of other cards, definitly an ATI 16 pipe version ( any one ) from the X8XX series, and an older 9800/5900 that this is a more likely candidate as an upgrade from.

Other than that, I agree with a few on here that if the G70 chipset has now been bridged, hopefully Nvidia will see some sales that may prompt them to do the same with the 7800GT, or more likely, ATI sees this and ports an X1800 or X1900 with similar crippled specs to compete, and they can keep it going from there.

As a AGP/S754, its so hard to want to upgrade when I do just fine with my 2.65Ghz 3000+. Until the S939 dual cores come down slightly I can't see myself replacing my system just for a video card upgrade.

Ryan

 

[David_L6]

I really feel it should have been called the 7600 GS, that's my opinion. It isn't in the same caliber as the 7800 series performance wise.

I also think this one should have been called 7600 GS. The 7800 GS should have had 20 pipes.

 

[FrgMstr]

I really feel it should have been called the 7600 GS, that's my opinion. It isn't in the same caliber as the 7800 series performance wise.

This is actually a very good point and I wish I would have been quick enough to think of it myself. But I think this is right on the mark and would have helped explain my thoughts on performance. The bottom line is that FEAR moved the watermark on what is acceptable in gameplay, and I am not paying $350 for a game that only allows me to play the latest game out at 800x600.

 

[FrgMstr]

I like the short version review for a card like this that is little more than a *blah* version of the "new" GeForce. I also like the harsh intro. Tell it like it is brotha!
My only issue is that I would still like to see a few fps comparisons & graphs comparing identical settings. I know Kyle, Steve & Brent's argument that it is not truly apples-to-apples, and that overall acceptable experience is the bottom line -- and I mostly agree; but I would still like to see some raw, [H]ard numbers...probably something to do with my EE/CS background.
Finally, one of the questions we always hear is, "How does this card compare with a [insert older card name]?" Sometimes this will be something as absurd as an FX5700 or a Radeon 9250 compared to a 6800ultra, but sometimes it will be a top-of-the-line card from two generations ago. If somebody asks how a 7800GS AGP compares to a Radeon 9800xt or x800, it's a pretty reasonable question -- a gamer with a previous top end card is interested in a new top end card. I would like to see how a new video card compares to card of a similar caliber, but from a generation or two back. I think this would be especially helpful for reviews of new generation mid to low-end cards to see how they compare against the high-end cards of yesterday.
Having never conducted a video card review for publication myself, this might be asking for something that would take a ton of extra work. If so, please excuse my lack of knowledge, but I still think such comparisons would be very interesting and useful for folks around here.

While we did not show it, we did discuss it. From the conclusion.

If you are still gaming on a 9700/9800 or 5800/5900 series video card, and are dead set against upgrading your motherboard, there is no doubt that the BFGTech 7800 GS OC is going to give you tons more performance than you have now and bring you into playing the most popular games that are out today with tons of eye candy turned on. However, if you have any of the newer midrange video cards it is hard to sit here and tell you to spend $350 on a new video card that cannot be brought over to a newer motherboard. By buying a new AGP video card, you are locking yourself into an aging system platform for that much longer. If you currently have a 939-pin processor, I think it is feasible to suggest that you could more wisely spend your $350 on a new motherboard and a new video card to go in it. Those of you with socket 754 processors will obviously not be afforded that option unless you want to lock yourself into another socket 754 motherboard which could further obstruct your upgrade path.

 

[InorganicMatter]

Is the shrinkage in die size what allows you to achieve those ungodly overclocks? And why does performance go through the roof with even a medium overclock? This is the funniest scaling of performance/clock frequency I have ever seen...

 

[FrgMstr]

really? cause I really don't think it makes a big difference in SS2

I switched back and forth a couple of times on two of the "nighttime-ish" maps and it made and impact on the feeling of the map to me. I was looking for it though, and you could argue that it did not enhance or detract from my overall gaming experience, but it did a coolness factor I was aware of, especially since I started with the 7800 and then wen to the 6800 and saw the benefit taken away.

 

[FrgMstr]

Is the shrinkage in die size what allows you to achieve those ungodly overclocks? And why does performance go through the roof with even a medium overclock? This is the funniest scaling of performance/clock frequency I have ever seen...

Put simply, that die was built to "go fast." remember it is selling retail in other cards at 450 with ALL PIPES running. I don't think it is so much that it overclocks like a demon but the fact that it has had it balls clipped off to begin with that makes it seem like a huge achivement.

 

[jahcs]

Wow, it's a die shrunk 6800 Ultra with some GF7 features and a little faster memory. Boo, Hiss! If you already have a 6800GT+, or X800XT+, why would you buy this card?

If you have a 9800 Pro/5950 or less, why would you spend $350 on this? $400 will get you a 7800GT and new PCI-E motherboard.

This isn't salvation for AGP users, this is a stopgap

This echoes my thoughts. A $350 neutered card? I realize that price is probably MSRP and also includes BFG's product support and warranty, but when there is already such a variety of choice for the 7800GT in PCI-e flavor at lower price points it seems more like a slap in the face.

Eye candy/FPS per dollar spent is the name of the game when squeezing life out of machines that are starting to fall behind the technology curve. This card falls short, IMHO.

With all that said I'm glad to see a manufacturer not trying to leave all AGP users in the oubliette of obsolete hardware.

 

[Kwincy]

Good review, not as long as I'm used to, but good nevertheless. I've been trying to see what card I can upgrade to from my 6800NU since I have a P4/s478mobo with AGP. For the price this card is at, I'm leaning towards chucking the P4 and AGP vidcard to PCIe. For the price of this card, I think people can still jump on the evga 7800GT/Free SLI mobo at the 'egg, which makes the decision to jump to PCIe easier on the wallet. If the card was cheaper, I'd jump on it.

If the rest of the people are still complaining about a review that puts this card versus say the x850xtpe/6800U and a system closer to what you have (a64 3200), just read tomshardware's bloated review. For me, this is enough to save me from spending $350 on my dying AGP platform.

Kwincy

 

[Frank DC]

I'm not trying to start a x850xt vs 7800gs flamewar here, but I'm going by a legitimate x850 vs gs comparison I found here.

This review underclocked the 7800GS from BFG/EVGA factory defaults. Not quite fair IMO. One of the primary benefits of the card's smaller die size is much better o/c headroom. 7800GS starts to pull away from the X850 with even a modest o/c. Not to mention SM3.0 support which the X850 doesn't have.

 

[NoGodForMe]

Some of us are looking for that one final upgrade to our AGP systems.
When I built my machine (see sig below), I knew PCI-E was coming, but didn't want to be an early adopter. So I stayed with AGP not knowing it was going away so fast.

So frustrated, I wrote Nvidia several e-mails saying they left a bunch of people hanging.

Many of you will say to just upgrade to PCI-E. Yeah, but that means a new MB and a reformat. It's not fun to start over, and I shouldn't have too. I've had the system in my sig since September of 2004, that's less than 18 months.

The constructive criticism was good if it makes Nvidia bump up the pipelines as one final fastest AGP solution. I'm happy they listened to the fans. I'll be looking for a card like this in 6 months, so it may not be a hot seller, but people will buy it as a final upgrade.

 

[InorganicMatter]

Not to mention SM3.0 support which the X850 doesn't have.

I'm an nVidia fanb0i, so don't get the wrong message. But please, for the love of all that is holy, don't reopen that can of worms!

 

[FrgMstr]

A 6 page review would of been sufficient, an intro page, pic page, 3 pages of benchmarks and a overclocking/conclusion page. No need to go all out on a mid range product.
Hope you guys dont do this again because i really like your gameplay scores.

This was good product to test the waters on with making some format changes. But to address your issue, no, I don't see us moving to these extremes overall any time soon.

As to the results of the poll, it is showing that our readership's ways of viewing these products have greatly matured. I in no way thought we would "score" 50% or above with 95% of you guys in here. This does help me know what you guys think is important though and will keep us on focus with your needs while allowing us to grow the evaluation programs.

I want to keep the [H] branded sites progressive and pushing our industry forward, but certainly we do not want to do that just for the sake of doing it. It is my goal to keep making the content that much more valuable to folks like you.

While this might not make much sense, I am really proud of our readers and our editors. All of us are moving out of the dark ages and into the light together. And trust me, I problably question the way we do things around here much more often than you guys do, I just don't get to rag my own ass in a public forum

 

[DamienThorn]

I'm not on AGP anymore, but I am looking for and AGP card for my girlfriends system. While I've been reading [H] for years now, and I trust your opinions Kyle, the average person that's just surfing for reviews doesn't know you or the reputation that [H] has built up. I think that having some graphs, not 12 pages worth, but some, would be helpful to the person who randomly surfs here for the review. That said, it's nice to have some open opinions about mediocre hardware when it hits the streets, and few places other than [H] seem to actually voice those opinions.

 

[redfoot12]

I've been reading the pros and cons (mostly cons) for this graphics card on this board. I understand that Nvidia's offering a stripped down version of the GT/GTX but it offers me (a 9800 Pro, P4 3.4 GHz Northwood) a fine stopgap card for the next year. It performs at 6800 Ultra levels for $50-$100+ less than that card and I get some of the technical improvements over the X800/850 cards. It looks like there's even some built-in room to overclock for superior performance in some instances. If it looks like extra pipelines can be unlocked, then even more power to me. What looks like a ridiculous choice for some people is fine for me until I upgrade to AM2 mobos a year from now. I think this review was guided more by gut reaction than an objective attempt at surveying what will be a great solution for many AGPers out there.

 

[FrgMstr]

I'm sorry if I seemed harsh in my criticism. I turn to [H]ardOCP for in depth hardware analysis that touches on all the pertinent factors but doesn't take up 25 pages to do so. Your videocard reviews are the only ones I sit and read through completely from page 1 to the conclusion. I just feel that your perfect balance of what matters and what doesn't was completely missed.

I've heard you say that the AGP 8X interface isn't being saturated, what better way to illustrate that fact than by clocking a 7800GT to 7800GS speeds, locking the pipelines down to 16P 6V and filling an nForce 3 Ultra board with the same CPU and ram as an nForce 4 board and seeing what impact the graphics interface has?

I know that the chipset would have a minor impact but that can be accounted for in an expected gain/loss, If that gain or loss is exceeded then that would show the impact given by the graphics interface.

Anyways, I'm sorry for the knee-jerk reaction but there's nothing I can do about it now.

Not a problem bro, you were not flaming, just putting it out therein a no-bullshit manner. I apprciate that. And I do see where you were coming from. This was a little bit of a test to see where we stand, we will move back towards our format from here out, although I think we need to do some more tweaking.

As for the AGP bus tests, to be perfectly honest, we did not do it because I just don't care. I don't make outlandish claims and have talked to folks at NVIDIA and ATI on my bus thoughts and I have yet to find anyone that disagrees with me. That all said, doing the testing talked about by you is not going to tell us about what gaming experience we will get in the real world. Seriously, I would much rather spend our resources evaluating the experience the hardware provides instead of trying to "review" hardware. I do however see how it would be interesting to read about, I am just going to leave it to someone else to write. I would rather be paying my guys to write about things that truly make a difference to a wide group of computer users and gamers.

 

[FrgMstr]

I've been reading the pros and cons (mostly cons) for this graphics card on this board. I understand that Nvidia's offering a stripped down version of the GT/GTX but it offers me (a 9800 Pro, P4 3.4 GHz Northwood) a fine stopgap card for the next year. It performs at 6800 Ultra levels for $50-$100+ less than that card and I get some of the technical improvements over the X800/850 cards. It looks like there's even some built-in room to overclock for superior performance in some instances. If it looks like extra pipelines can be unlocked, then even more power to me. What looks like a ridiculous choice for some people is fine for me until I upgrade to AM2 mobos a year from now. I think this review was guided more by gut reaction than an objective attempt at surveying what will be a great solution for many AGPers out there.

Fully agreed.

If you are dead set on staying in the AGP era, the BFGTech 7800 GS OC will surely provide you with a fantastic gaming experience…

 

[LoneWolf]

Not a bad review. I think it lacks some things, but some of the ability to do this isn't available yet. I'm pretty sure [H]ardOCP will go over them in a followup review as time (and capabilities) permit. We don't have an answer on whether the 7800GS is a 7800GT with a quad disabled, and what chance there might be of enabling it successfully if that is the case. We also don't know how much performance bonus is available from overclocking.

For the time being though, it doesn't look worth it. Kind of glad I got rid of my AGP hardware at the final peak of its value a year ago.

 

[Jason711]

the card is worthless at that price point. and did not warrent much of any sort of review.

 

[headless]

I'd have to agree with those asking for graphs or FPS data. Subjective reviews are pointless; if i wanted one of those i could just wait for people to post in the forums "HAY GUYS THIS RAWKS" or "OMG I R HATE MY NEW CARD IT R SLOW" How anyone can say a card is worthless or not from some subjective "i had to change the res to make it playable!" like statements i just don't understand.

 

[redfoot12]

If I can grow some balls of my own (maybe the ones Nvidia clipped from the 7800 GS) this will force me to make that final leap into overclocking my stock 3.4 GHz to 3.7~3.8.

 

[InorganicMatter]

If I can grow some balls of my own (maybe the ones Nvidia clipped from the 7800 GS) this will force me to make that final leap into overclocking my stock 3.4 GHz to 3.7~3.8.

Duuude, hammer it! My 3.2 hits 3.6 without even breaking a sweat, very nice performance increase.

Actually, this nice overclock is whats got me thinking about the 7800GS. I was running a pretty well-rounded system with a 2.8 P4, 1GB, 6800nu. I was able to swap for a 3.2 processor that with a lot of cooling, does 3.8 easy. I'm wondering with this new boost if I could breate one last breath of life into this system with a new video card.

 

[pigwalk]

A 6 page review would of been sufficient, an intro page, pic page, 3 pages of benchmarks and a overclocking/conclusion page. No need to go all out on a mid range product.

Whoa whoa there, please do NOT disregard mid range products. [H]ard doesn't equal rich, and alot of people on these boards love taking their midranged products and clocking them dead to get the most of our money. I bet you there are ALOT more 3/3200 Winchester users than FX57 guys. Don't leave us out.

-wil

 

[jebo_4jc]

Duuude, hammer it! My 3.2 hits 3.6 without even breaking a sweat, very nice performance increase.

Actually, this nice overclock is whats got me thinking about the 7800GS. I was running a pretty well-rounded system with a 2.8 P4, 1GB, 6800nu. I was able to swap for a 3.2 processor that with a lot of cooling, does 3.8 easy. I'm wondering with this new boost if I could breate one last breath of life into this system with a new video card.

IMHO, buy a used 850xt or 6800GT/U in the FS/FT forum for 1/2 the price of the 7800GS.

 

[FrgMstr]

I'd have to agree with those asking for graphs or FPS data. Subjective reviews are pointless; if i wanted one of those i could just wait for people to post in the forums "HAY GUYS THIS RAWKS" or "OMG I R HATE MY NEW CARD IT R SLOW" How anyone can say a card is worthless or not from some subjective "i had to change the res to make it playable!" like statements i just don't understand.

Well, I can see your point of view, but it is not like we are comprised of 13 year old kids that have no hardware experience. In this I think you are pointing out a key factor that has to underly our entire site, and that is an element of trust or being viewed as "experts" in our industry. If you don't trust our thoughts or believe us to be "experts," or at the very least have enough comparative firsthand hardware experience, I certainly would not buy into our opinons just because a graph was there.

In my defense there was a lot more tweaking going on than just resolutions. TRSSAA has a huge impact to the gameplay experience in BF2 as I outlined and HDR does in SS2. I still see "trusted" hardware sites that do not even run their canned benchmarks with some of these features enabled, and they are part of the 7800 backbone.

And the fact of the matter is that with today's gaming hardware there is hardly anything that is apples to apples so I would suggest that even most of what you can objective opinion is either bad comparisons or masked subjective opinion. And no I dont mean to come off like a conspiracy guy..

 

[kcthebrewer]

IMO, the only problem with the card is the price. If it was at a max of $275 (still a lot) I think the card would be much more attractive. I am currently stuck with an AGP motherboard (I have been waiting on an 64-bit SLI notebook or quad cores), so I was looking for a little upgrade from my 6800GT since the card will just go into another machine and replace a 4200 or 5200, but at the current price point that isn't going to happen. My only complaint with the review is the lack of a graph and maybe DoD:S with HDR benchies (maybe you can start making your graphs similar to Hilbert (like with the eye candy)).

 

[InorganicMatter]

I agree with the price; at the performance it offeres this card should be $250 max, more like $200 (although that would mean eliminating the 6800GS from their product line).