FW900 killer? Panasonic plasma monitor 42PF50U

It's 42" at 1080p - using that for a monitor sounds doesn't sound very enjoyable to me. The 120 Hz would be nice though.
 
Sounds amazing but "390 Watt" power consumption while operational? Fuck me that is a power sucker for a 42 inch Plasma.

Still , if I had the spare change I probably wouldn't think twice.
 
Let us know what you find. I have an FW-900, and if this is even equal to it, then I will definitely consider it for our entertainment system.
 
Well it has a Dual DVI input. That alone is encouraging for the possibility of 1080p @ 120hz.
 
Chad_Thunder said:
Anyone know anything about this unit? I had a play around with this monitor at work and I've never seen a flat panel handle motion so fluidly without interpolation, it was completely mesmerizing watching things bounce around without motion blur and there was a richness or depth to the picture that I have only seen on local dimming lcds, also as far as I can tell there was no chroma subsampling which would be immediately apparent because I do not use cleartype
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Plasmas still have better colors, however, have you seen either of these two technologies which has even less motion blur than plasma:

1. Sony's interpolation-free Game Mode Motionflow Impulse

2. nVidia's LightBoost, a strobe backlight found in several models of 120Hz computer monitors.

On these displays, there is no motion blur, and there is no interpolation.
Here is a post I recently made on AVSFORUM:

Mark Rejhon said:
New Interpolation-Free LCD's With Less Motion Blur Than Plasma

For people interested in eliminating motion blur during video gaming, there is some good news in new displays. The CRT feeling is back!

This is in regards to MOTION quality (not color quality, black quality), with the brand new strobe-backlight LCD's that finally produce true CRT motion resolution in an LCD. LCD still has poor black levels compared to CRT, but the LCD motion blur dragon has been finally slayed. This article is not for people who prefer motion blur; this article is not for people who disliked CRT's. This is for people who wants maximum motion resolution in a display -- clearest and sharpest fast motion during video games.

I'm well known in other areas of the forum, but not in this section. I wanted to mention two major new developments as of year 2013 for people who want the maximum possible motion resolution in video games out of an LCD display. Recently, new strobe backlights have been invented that manage to allow LCD to have better motion resolution than a plasma, without the disadvantage of plasma input lag. (Plasma is still better for color quality, but this is for people who care more about maximum motion resolution).

What are Strobe Backlights???

Strobe backlights are backlights/edgelights that flash once per refresh, which makes the LCD flicker like a CRT. The backlight is turned off while waiting for pixel transitions (unseen by human eyes), and the backlight is strobed only on fully-refreshed LCD frames (seen by human eyes). The strobes can be shorter than pixel transitions, breaking the pixel transition speed barrier! In addition, it eliminates the sample-and-hold effect.
High speed video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD5gjAs1A2s

Several good articles about strobe backlights include TFTCentral: Motion Blur Reduction Backlights. For a long time, there was scanning backlights that were commonly used by Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, etc HDTV's. Most of them combined interpolation so these created lots of input lag, and created a fake "soap opera" effect. But the brand new strobe backlights are low-lag and 100% interpolation free, which is slowly starting to revolutionize video gaming for motion-blur-sensitive people. These finally bring CRT motion resolution to LCD displays, with a lot of amazed testimonials that are similiar to:

original post (Transsive)
Then yesterday I, for some reason, disabled the 3d and noticed there was no ghosting to be spotted at all in titan quest. It's like playing on my old CRT.
Click to expand...
original post (Inu)
I can confirm this works on BENQ XL2420TX
EDIT: And OMG i can play scout so much better now in TF2, this is borderline cheating.
Click to expand...
original post (TerrorHead)
Thanks for this, it really works! Just tried it on my VG278H. Its like a CRT now!
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original post (Vega)
Oh my, I just got Skyrim AFK camera spinning (which I used to test LCD's versus the [Sony CRT] FW900) to run without stutters and VSYNC locked to 120. This Benq with Lightboost is just as crystal clear if not clearer than the FW900 motion. I am in awe. More testing tomorrow. Any of my doubts about this Lightboost technology have been vaporized! I've been playing around with this fluid motion on this monitor for like 6-hours straight, that is how impressive it is.
Click to expand...
OCN post (Baxter299)
way to go vega enjoyed your review and pics ..thanks for taking the time .got my VG248QE last friday .replacing my fw900 witch is finally taking a rest in my closet .
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OCN post (Romir)
Thanks for the timely review Vega.
I went ahead and opened mine and WOW, it really does feel like my FW900. I haven't tried a game yet but it's down right eerie seeing 2d text move without going blurry.
Click to expand...
...And dozens others rave reviews by gamers...​

If you care more about black levels and maximum color quality, you may not be interested. However, if you want fast pans that are as perfectly sharp as stationary images, without using motion interpolation, and without the input lag, strobe backlights are becoming an increasingly popular solution. If want perfect sharpness during fast motion (e.g. being able to see fast panning motion similiar to www.testufo.com/#test=photo with zero motion blur) whie playing video games, you need a flicker display technology such as a CRT, a LightBoost display, or a Motionflow Impulse display. Even the best plasma displays still create too much motion blur for some people who are extremely sensitive to motion blur. Also, for best motion fludiity without interpolation, you need to run a framerate matching display refresh rate.

There are some good web based animations that helps people understand motion blur better, and why strobe backlights reduce motion blur.
View these animations in Google Chrome on a recent computer (everything in chrome://gpu enabled):
- Animation that shows higher framerate has less motion blur: www.testufo.com/#test=framerates
- Animation that shows how eye tracking can create motion blur: www.testufo.com/#test=eyetracking
- Animation that shows how flicker reduce motion blur: www.testufo.com/#test=blackframes

Mathematically, for high-efficiency strobe backlights, motion blur is directly proportional to strobe length. Both TFTCentral and Blur Busters measured the strobe lengths of LightBoost, as well as looked at motion tests such as PixPerAn and TestUFO.com.

256102

As a comparison, plasma displays has 5ms of motion blur due to red/green phosphor decay, and the medium-persistence Sony GDM-W900 CRT has about 1-2ms of motion blur, due to phosphor decay. The numbers measured for LightBoost has less motion blur than plasma (and it actually shows up in motion tests such as www.testufo.com/#test=photo that LightBoost has clearer motion than plasma). This finally puts LCD truly in CRT ballpark -- both from a subjective AND objective/measured perspective -- At least for medium-persistence phosphor type. Provided you have a GPU capable of running framerates matching refresh rates, since you're avoiding interpolation with these types of strobe backlights.

Strobe backlights generally improves motion of games with a fast panning motion (such as www.testufo.com/#test=photo ...) so it benefits games that has fast panning, such as strafing and turns in FPS games, fast flybys such as low helicoptor-flybys in Battlefield 3, and things like racing games (arcade racers, sim racers, etc). In addition beyond gaming, it can also benefit a small minority of people who get eyestrain from motion blur (e.g. like scrolling a web browser window and getting eyestrain because of the blur). Be noted that strobe backlights aren't for people who hated CRT, though the LightBoost behaves like a high-refresh-rate 120Hz CRT.


1. LightBoost Monitors

Supported 120Hz Computer Monitors:
ASUS: VG248QE, ASUS VG278H, ASUS VG278HE, BENQ XL2411T, BENQ XL2420T, BENQ XL2420TX, BENQ XL2420TE, BENQ XL2720T, Acer HN274HBbmiiid

LightBoost is a strobe backlight that is now available in several 120Hz computer monitors (google "LightBoost monitors"). It is normally used as part of nVidia 3D Vision to synchronize strobe flashes with the timings of shutter glasses. However, it also additionally eliminates motion blur too, independently of its original stereoscopic purpose. Recently in 2013, LightBoost became more popular for 2D motion blur elimination. It has recently gotten coverage in several media websites such as ArsTechnica, AnandTech, TFTCentral, etc.

The definitive guide is the LightBoost HOWTO. The newest and most popular method of enabling LightBoost is the new ToastyX Strobelight utility, which is a software utility that allows you to use LightBoost with almost any graphics card (nVidia or AMD) on almost any LightBoost monitor. Bear in mind Lightboost doesn't look good at 60fps@120Hz, it only looks amazing at 120fps@120Hz. LightBoost is hardware-locked to strobe at 100-to-120Hz, so it is like a CRT that's locked to flicker only at a 100-to-120Hz refresh rate. So it will only benefit computer sources, since those are the only mainstream sources capable of outputting 120Hz.

Experiment with your VSYNC setting (e.g. use Adaptive VSYNC) so that your game panning motion can look as perfectly zero motion blur as possible. This can be challenging with more recent games, but not impossible with Titan's and Geforce 770/7880 GPU's. Older games such as Source Engine games can run at 120fps easily on cheaper 600-series GeForce GPU's. A favourite setting by LightBoost users is Adaptive VSYNC, since it is an input-lag-reduced VSYNC ON, while providing the perfect zero motion blur motion fluidity whenever framerates matches refresh rates. Disable your game's artificial motion blur feature, so you can enjoy gaming unfettered by artificial motion blur.

Main Pros:
+ Elimination of motion blur. CRT perfect clarity motion.
+ Improved competitive advantage by faster human reaction times.
+ Far more fluid than regular 120Hz or 144Hz.
+ Fast motion is more immersive.

Main Cons:
- Reduced brightness.
- Degradation of color quality. (Can be calibrated)
- Minor flicker, if you are flicker sensitive. (like a 120Hz CRT)
- Requires a powerful GPU to get full benefits. You need 120fps@120Hz for full benefits.


2. Sony Motionflow Impulse

Supported Sony Televisions:
HX920 Series, HX923 Series, HX925 Series, HX929 Series, XBR-55HX950, XBR-65HX950, KDL-47W802A (Budget), KDL-55w802A (Budget), KDL-55W900A, W905A Series, XBR-55X900A (4K Ultra), XBR-65X900A (4K Ultra)

The Motionflow Impulse Mode is a new Sony strobe backlight now available in Game Mode on several newer higher-end Sony HDTV's. What is amazing about it is that it is one of the world's first low-latency motion blur reduction technology to hit an LCD HDTV, that is available during Game Mode. No interpolation lag! It flickers a LOT like a 60Hz CRT, so it is not as easy on everybody's eyes as LightBoost. However, if you turn the lights down a little bit, and also turn off the ambient light sensor, the image becomes brighter than a projector screen, and when you play video games -- you have an amazing 4x less motion blur (4 times the motion resolution! All blu-rays motion tests show full 1080 lines of motion resolution with zero interpolation artifacts). Motionflow Impulse is doing the equivalent of a 3:1 black frame insertion (75% dark, 25% bright).

The advantage of Motionflow Impulse is that it works with all 60Hz sources, including video game consoles. Bear in mind that most console games only run at 30fps, so you won't get the full benefits from 30fps games (you get a double-image effect like when playing on plasma). You will probably want to stick to 60fps games, which is easier to get from a HTPC running a powerful GPU.

Main Pros:
+ Elimination of motion blur. CRT perfect clarity motion.
+ No interpolation. Low lag.
+ About 4x less motion blur than regular 60Hz
+ Better color quality than a computer monitor

Main Cons:
- Greatly reduced brightness in strobe mode. (Disabling ambient light sensor helps)
- Flickers a lot like a 60Hz CRT
- You need 60fps @ 60Hz for full benefits (since you're avoiding interpolation)


Testing Motion on a Strobe Backlight

Find material that does fast panning motion during framerates matching refresh rate.
One good test is the TestUFO Moving Photo Test at www.testufo.com/#test=photo
(View on a recent computer with ATI/nVidia, running Chrome browser, for perfect framerate=Hz motion)

On a short persistence display -- such as a CRT or one of the high-efficiency strobe backlight displays -- the moving photo at www.testufo.com/#test=photo looks exactly as sharp as a stationary photo at www.testufo.com/#test=photo&pps=0 ... Fast panning motion would appear perfectly sharp, just like on a CRT. Turn on/off your display's strobe mode while viewing the panning motion. When strobes are enabled, you will be able to count the windows in the castle at the top of the moving photo, for example.

Be noted that in your video games, you may not benefit very much from a strobe backlight unless you can run at framerates matching refresh rates. A good test of multiple framerates can be done by viewing www.testufo.com/#test=framerates&count=3 (while using a CRT or strobe backlight display); you will observe that maximum game motion quality literally demands framerate=Hz
Click to expand...
 
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Chad_Thunder said:
Hi Mark, I've seen Motionflow on the HX950
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All the other Motionflow modes are not good for games, except for Motionflow "Impulse".
Did you try out the "Impulse" mode of Motionflow? That's the important one.

That said, the NeoPlasmas (including the model you mentioned) are known to be very good for motion resolution amongst plasmas.
 
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Wouldn't surprise me. My 50ST30 is a NeoPlasma and I managed to get the max level of 30 using PixPerAn readability test. The somewhat slow phosphors of the FW900 limited that to around level 25.
 
Chad_Thunder said:
Was that at 60hz? I think it's possible the 3D models are much faster than 2D models
Click to expand...

Yes - the PF30 you're getting is similar to the 30 series consumer sets. Mine only does 720p @ 120hz (hdmi) but you can immediately feel the drop in input lag, which on the consumer models is around 2 frames.
 
do Panasonic display 4:4:4 yet? or do you still need to buy one of their broadcast monitors for that luxury?
 
IanM said:
do Panasonic display 4:4:4 yet? or do you still need to buy one of their broadcast monitors for that luxury?
Click to expand...

My ST30 doesn't, however Panasonic finally got their act together last year and the latest models do support 4:4:4 (1080p pixel direct mode).
 
So these plasmas are actually advertised as pc displays?
"The TH-42PF50U can also display presentations, images and web pages wirelessly from a PC, Mac or iOS device"
http://www.panasonic.com/business/plasma/TH-42PF50U.asp

Always liked plasma, never bothered to even try as monitor due to burn-in etc.
But if they are so clearly advertised for pc use, even "images", then i guess the burn-in issue must be dealt with?

Can't seem to find these monitors in norway/sweden though.

What is "SLOT 2.0 functionality that adds professional video terminal board input capability", can this possibly be used for some higher bandwidth input?
Found what looks like dual-link dvi input..
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...d=323236&catGroupId=36053&surfModel=TY-FB11DD
This one specifies it can do WUXGA 1920x1200 and it clearly looks like dual-link
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...d=102544&catGroupId=36053&surfModel=TY-FB9FDD
This one costs $1400 and has no picture, but claims "Dual DVI-D Terminal Board (3D Compatible)"
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...539169&catGroupId=36053&surfModel=TY-FB30DD3D

I want three, if its true.. :D
 
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Chad_Thunder said:
120hz works at any resolution up to 1280 x 720, beyond that you simply bump the hertz until the pixel clock reaches 165mhz and back it down one tap
Click to expand...
To keep refresh rate high, use Reduced Blanking instead of Automatic. (smaller Porch and Sync values). That gives you slightly higher refresh rates while staying under 165Mhz dotclock. You should be able to do approximately 75Hz at 1920x1080 with less than a 165Mhz dotclock, by using reduced blanking.

Also see if the 165Mhz dotclock can be bypassed with a different input. Try direct HDMI-to-HDMI, try DVI, try VGA, see if you can use a different connection.
 
Meeho said:
Does reduced blanking have any drawbacks?
Click to expand...
No drawbacks, just that the picture may disappear if you reduce blanking too much. Just keep reducing porches / sync until picture destabilizes or disappears, then back off a bit. Voila!

Blanking are too huge these days. It's a legacy of 1940's analog televisions to have blanking intervals as big as they still are today. NTSC was invented in 1941, which was roughly 483 visible scanlines out of 525 scanlines total -- 8% of bandwidth used up in blanking. Blanking intervals are big enough to drive a truck through! Blanking intervals was invented for analog televisions, as a waiting interval to wait for an electron gun beam to move back to the beginning (of next horizontal scanline, or of next vertical refresh). Digital displays don't really need that as much, it is more of a waiting time to allow digital electronics to nearly instantly go back to the beginning (of a row for horizontal scan, or top of screen for vertical scan). Today, why do we need to waste 8% of dotclock bandwidth to blanking intervals today, when we don't need to anymore!??!!?! It's an obsolete carryover from analog days. Reduced Blanking works on most modern displays. Instead, put the bandwidth to use by speeding up your Hz by a few extra refreshes per second without going over a dotclock limit. Problem is, many manufacturers have different tolerances, some go out of sync fast (and some keeps synchronized even all the way to nearly-zero blanking!). Sometimes you have to use manually entered values that are bigger than Reduced Blanking, but smaller than Automatic (e.g. GTF General Timing Formula) So to make sure video cards work on all displays, drivers use big blanking intervals huge enough to drive a truck through, sometimes it's the same percentage of bandwidth waste as 1940's TV's!!! An old carryover. Reduced Blanking should have zero effect on the picture, provided your display's electronics isn't as slow as a 1940's TV :D
 
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Chad_Thunder said:
European model would be 42PF50ER

Naming scheme goes like follows

42/50/60/65 size
PF/BT300/VX300 model
20/30/50 series
U/ER/W for America / Europe / Asia
Click to expand...

The only one i can find with dvi input is Panasonic TH-42BT300ER, whats the difference between that and the PF? It is also marketed as "professional", seems to have a dl-dvi connector (judging by the pins etc).
 
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Chad_Thunder said:
Yeah mine says 24 pin as well but who knows, I can display a signal past 165Mhz but it is garbled

BT300 and VX300 has a bit better picture (12,288 vs 6,144 grayscale) more calibration options and 10-bit processing, it's a studio quality monitor but even without seeing it I would say the PF is better value

Here is a quick video review

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgZhlRkjdUw

Maybe they are still selling PF30 in your country?
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It seems its called 42PF50W here, strange that we should have the asia version.
 
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In the review for the 42BT300 they mention occasional image retention and 25-30ms input lag:
"However, we did notice occasional instances of image retention but in all fairness that is just a weakness of plasma technology."

I found an older review for the "20" series which had <10ms input lag.
 
Chad_Thunder said:
Please see my update

Panasonic 42PF50U (120hz@720p,91hz@1440x1080,71hz@1920x1080, Full RGB, frame sequential 3D, 8bit color per channel)
Panasonic 50PF50U (120hz@720p,91hz@1440x1080,71hz@1920x1080, Full RGB, frame sequential 3D, 8bit color per channel)
Panasonic 60PF50U (120hz@720p,91hz@1440x1080,71hz@1920x1080, Full RGB, frame sequential 3D, 8bit color per channel)
Panasonic 65PF50U (120hz@720p,91hz@1440x1080,71hz@1920x1080, Full RGB, frame sequential 3D, 8bit color per channel)
Panasonic 42BT300U (120hz@1080p, Full RGB, frame sequential 3D, 10bit per channel, scaler optional)
Panasonic 50BT300U (120hz@1080p, Full RGB, frame sequential 3D, 10bit per channel, scaler optional)
Panasonic 65VX300U (120hz@1080p, Full RGB, frame sequential 3D, 10bit per channel, scaler optional)
Click to expand...
Where did you find the info that 42BT300U can do 120hz@1080p ?
The modes listed in the manual lists 1920x1080@60hz as the highest (well, 1920x1200, but who wants that in 16:9).

It also mentions frame sequential 3d, and that 3d refresh rate is switchable between 100 or 120hz, so i guess it should support it for 2d too, but it isn't in the spec sheet.

It might list 60hz as the maximum because of this, but 120hz works anyway?
Or is 120hz analogue only, this quote from the manual is a bit vague ?
"If the dot clock frequency of an analogue signal is 162Mhz or higher, "dot clock" and "clock phase" cannot be automatically corrected."
 
It even says in the post you quoted to "see update"... And on top of that OP linked to it for you...

Long story short, he figured that out...
 
Warrior said:
It even says in the post you quoted to "see update"... And on top of that OP linked to it for you...

Long story short, he figured that out...
Click to expand...

That post is about a different model, that he lists as capable of 1920x1080@71hz
The one I'm asking about is a different model (which the manual spec sheet contradictory lists as capable of 1920x1080@60hz, but at the same time capable of frame sequential 120hz 3d, which makes no sense. He has listed it as capable of 1920x1080@120hz, that's why i ask).
 
Hey guys the 42PF50U is listed for sale by Best Buy's business division. They ship it out to your home directly and there is a 15 day full refund policy. You can return it to a local Best Buy store. I am seriously considering this. I almost purchased a FW900 but decided to hold off to see what other monitors are coming out in the near future with Zero motion blur (lightboost).

Chad, how are the black levels on the 42PF30? They seem excellent from your pics.
 
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