HD 5870 vs GTX 295

I read Techreport, Guru3D and Anandtech's reviews that compare them side by side. The GTX295 is generally faster, by a 5-30% margin, closer to about 15-20% on average, I'd say. Despite that, I think given a few months, they might come closer to parity, and even if that's not the case, I think 5870 is clearly the superior solution, considering how much has been done to reduce power consumption (especially idle).
 
Yeah, I have to say that reading these new 5870 reviews actually makes the 295 look better. I don't want one...but if they were to drop in price or if someone ran a sale on one I'd consider it.
Knowing Nvidia, they always tend to make their next gen out-do last gen's "double card," so I'm really interested to see what the G300 brings to the table.
 
I am waiting on both companies to come out. Until then, my 280GTX does the job. I do look forward to a new card though.

The 295 is still a bit of a bugger though b/c of SLI. If it works, great, if not? Well, you know.

That is why I will stick with the fastest single gpu I can afford. No duals for me.
 
thetruth said:
I am waiting on both companies to come out. Until then, my 280GTX does the job. I do look forward to a new card though.

The 295 is still a bit of a bugger though b/c of SLI. If it works, great, if not? Well, you know.

That is why I will stick with the fastest single gpu I can afford. No duals for me.
Click to expand...

Uh, if it doesn't, you just disable SLI for that game and still get the performance of the one card you already have (or in the case of the 295, the performance of a single GTX 275). If you can afford it, it's better to have the option of better performance with the ability to default to baseline performance than it is to have no option at all.
 
I was always iffy about going sli because of the complaints you hear, stuttering.. poor performance etc, I went 260 sli awhile back and have 0 regrets.. always smooth as butter.
 
doox00 said:
I was always iffy about going sli because of the complaints you hear, stuttering.. poor performance etc, I went 260 sli awhile back and have 0 regrets.. always smooth as butter.
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people who never tried out multi-GPU in this generation loves to say that, cant help it when they are under the phantom of 9800GX2 :(
 
I think my single 295 is smooth as butter too. :cool:

I am a nVidia fan, so I won't try and kid anybody about that...

I think both CUDA and PhysX are 'value adds' for their GPU's

The 5870 has the ability to run multiple displays, which is a plus for them. I do like that feature myself...

However, the biggest concern I have about the 5870, is the 256 bus. When the CPU was cranked up, and the benchmarks were run, the 5870 should have kept up with the 4870X2. In allot of the cases it didn't. It could be a driver thing, but on single chipped cards, that usually plays less of a role than it does on crossfire and SLI.

I have seen when we have guys running an OC'ed i7 rig, overclocking the 295's memory does still generate a higher Vantage score. I suspect these high end Monster cards need lots of bandwidth, and maybe more than the 5870 has?

http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.asp?m=100448234&mpage=1&key=�

johnksss ---------- i7 920 D0@ 4.60GHz --- (2) 295 839/1809/1203 ----- P46,814
hallowen ---------- i7 920 D0@ 4.71GHz --- (2) 295 839/1806/1193 ----- P46,101

Note the memory set to 1203 vs 1193...

and...
johnksss ---------- i7 920 D0@ 4.56GHz --- (1) 295 825/1825/1260 ----- P31,064

Q56_Monster ---- i7 920 D0@ 4.50GHz --- (1) 295 820/1817/1257 ----- P30,796
Q56_Monster --------- i7 920@ 4.36GHz --- (1) 295 817/1809/1267 ----- P30,392
johnksss --------------- i7 975@ 4.65GHz --- (1) 295 805/1800/1242 ----- P30,206

If the 5870 really can deliver the same performance as a 295, it might need more than a 256 bit bus to really shine? Not 100% sure, but I am glad that the 300 series will have a 512 bit bus, with 2GB of memory.

I do think the 380's benchmarks will be fun to see when it's released. Big Time!

I also wonder if nVidia will be able to compare the 380 to the 4870, like the 5870 is being compared to a 285. ;)
(Kidding, I know it aint gunna happin.)

nVidia dosen't have the same Black Magic with the review sites, as ATI does. :D
It always goes against them. I have seen it too many times now.

When the GX2 was out, it somehow didn't seem to get full credit as the performance king, due to it being a dual card...
When the 4870X2 was released, review sites were all tripping over each other, declaring to the world how the 4870X2 took the 280's performance crown...
Nobody cried then...
When the 5870 was released, some are saying it should really only have to run against the 285. (Due to it also being a single chip GPU)
nVidia just can't win.

Some may say the 295 is 90 bucks more, but when we spend such big bucks on our systems, trying to save a few on the GPU doesn't hold much water with me.
If you want to save 90 bucks that bad, i think it wise to look for another component of your system, other than the GPU. I consider the rest of my system just backing for the GPU I wanted to run.
If you skimp on the GPU, your performance will suffer the most. Get a less expensive case, or find a quality PSU on sale... ;)
(The 295's price will be adjusted soon anyway.)

Just for the record, the way I remember it is a 280 matched the GX2's performance at launch, and later with driver improvements surpassed it by a tad.
When the 5870 was released, it didn't beat the 4870X2. (Back to the 256 bus again I think?)
I don't want to knock the 5870, as it is a fine GPU. I simply think the 380 and 395 will be better performers.

I also think nVidia will offer better OpenCL support for the GPU, from the valuable lessons they have learned by implementing CUDA. GPU accelerated apps are going to be big this year.
Nexus will be big too...

http://www.nvidia.com/object/gpu_tec...onference.html

CONFERENCE SPOTLIGHT

NVIDIA NEXUS brings GPU Computing Development to Visual Studio
Unleash your productivity with NEXUS, NVIDIA's new development environment for GPU Computing and graphics applications that use CUDA C, OpenCL, DirectCompute, Direct3D, or OpenGL. NEXUS introduces native GPU debugging and platform-wide performance analysis tools for both computing and graphics developers, fully integrated into Visual Studio 2008.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLQuqXhlx40

The most interesting part of that is it looks like they're launching a new GPGPU tool that basically answers all the questions and misinformation thrown about regarding Nvidia's approach to GPGPU and accusations of "closed and proprietary standards". The Youtube link above gives a preview of how seamless and transparent industry standard API like OpenCL and DirectCompute will be integrated into Nvidia's GPGPU solution: NEXUS.

To cut through the buzz words, its no longer CUDA being the umbrella architecture for Nvidia's GPGPU, its NEXUS, which will encompass all of the above API as the umbrella architecture. What this means to the end-user? It will be even easier for Devs to seamlessly integrate next-gen DirectX11, PhysX, OpenCL Havok, and any other middleware or API specific effects or features on Nvidia hardware.

Sorry for such a large post.
 
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Wow TalonMan, ever hear the expression less is more.

The smarter people are not ATI or Nvidia fans, they simply pick the best product at the time they wish to purchase, and right now its all ATI. CUDA and PhysX (who cares) and DX11 is a bit of a yawn on the other side of the fence.
 
Battleneter2 said:
Wow TalonMan, ever hear the expression less is more.

The smarter people are not ATI or Nvidia fans, they simply pick the best product at the time they wish to purchase, and right now its all ATI. CUDA and PhysX (who cares) and DX11 is a bit of a yawn on the other side of the fence.
Click to expand...

When it comes time for me to purchase a new video card I buy whats best at that time. I bought a 4870x2 when it was released.. returned it 2 weeks later though, the drivers were a complete fail. If the latest and greatest ati and nvidia cards are close in performance then I do go with nvidia.. I just feel their drivers are a little more solid in my experience.

Now that you can get ati cards via XFX that does help out alot.. as I always felt ati was lacking in brands.. evga, bfg, xfx all have great warranty and support and that also factored in with my decision.
 
doox00 said:
When it comes time for me to purchase a new video card I buy whats best at that time. I bought a 4870x2 when it was released.. returned it 2 weeks later though, the drivers were a complete fail. If the latest and greatest ati and nvidia cards are close in performance then I do go with nvidia.. I just feel their drivers are a little more solid in my experience.

Now that you can get ati cards via XFX that does help out alot.. as I always felt ati was lacking in brands.. evga, bfg, xfx all have great warranty and support and that also factored in with my decision.
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Sure your really talking CF vs SLi and I tend to agree, but when it comes to Single GPU solutions I dont believe there is much of a dif in quality of drivers.

.
 
Battleneter2 said:
Sure your really talking CF vs SLi and I tend to agree, but when it comes to Single GPU solutions I dont believe there is much of a dif in quality of drivers.

.
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with custom CF profile program, there is really no worry about CF problem..

and from my experience, CF actually surprise me with scaling, its fantastic...
but I do agree, the launch of 4870X2 driver is a failure in my opinion, but time have change.....

they both work without a problem right now for me..
if someone want to flame on ATI or nVidia driver these days and say which is better, you are just trolling.......
 
TalonMan said:
gigantic post with very little substance
Click to expand...

How many times are people going to bring up the 256-bit bus? Even the resident video card editor has said it doesn't matter. GDDR5 is plenty fast, provides more than enough bandwidth, and a larger memory bus would just drive up the costs of the card.

I also wonder if nVidia will be able to compare the 380 to the 4870, like the 5870 is being compared to a 285.
(Kidding, I know it aint gunna happin.)
Click to expand...

So is AMD supposed to compare their present cards with future cards from nvidia that have no actual release date or official specs? What else would they compare the 5870 to?
 
TalonMan said:
I also wonder if nVidia will be able to compare the 380 to the 4870, like the 5870 is being compared to a 285. ;)
(Kidding, I know it aint gunna happin.)
Click to expand...

Yeah, that would only be fair, since the 4870 is ATI's latest single-GPU offering. :rolleyes:
 
TalonMan, it's not the size of the memory bus that counts. It's how you pair it!

With slow GDDR3? Even if you have a 512-bit memory bus, your overall memory bandwidth will still be limited. So, please, next time, instead of looking at that, look at the total memory bandwidth.
 
Cyrilix said:
TalonMan, it's not the size of the memory bus that counts. It's how you pair it!

With slow GDDR3? Even if you have a 512-bit memory bus, your overall memory bandwidth will still be limited. So, please, next time, instead of looking at that, look at the total memory bandwidth.
Click to expand...

I dont even think he have any idea what he is talking about.. :rolleyes:
 
Cyrilix said:
TalonMan, it's not the size of the memory bus that counts. It's how you pair it!

With slow GDDR3? Even if you have a 512-bit memory bus, your overall memory bandwidth will still be limited. So, please, next time, instead of looking at that, look at the total memory bandwidth.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the post... I could be wrong, as I have stated I am not sure. Just something I keeping an eye on. :)

Posted by Deimos: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235090&page=11
However, look at the 5870 and 5870 CF benchmarks:
- Half the games are CPU limited.. all Dual-GPU/CF converge at some crazy high 150-300fps limit.
- Another big portion like Fallout3, FarCry2, STALKER, RE5, Batman, and especially HAWX show HD 5870 bandwidth starved and falling far behind 4870x2.
- Finally, very shader intensive Crysis and others show HD 5870 taking clear lead.

It could be PCI bandwidth, or could be the 256 bit bus? To me the jury is still out.

AceCR42 said:
So is AMD supposed to compare their present cards with future cards from nvidia that have no actual release date or official specs? What else would they compare the 5870 to?
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No, they should compare it to a product that is currently released. :)

+1 for ATI getting the first DX11 cards out.

Having owned a 9800 GX2 and a 295, I have come to the conclusion that I no longer care how many chips they put in 1 GPU. To me, the GX2, 4870X2, and 295 are marketed as single GPU's and should be treated as such.
I am running my 295 on a non-SLI mobo after all. It acts like 1 GPU to me. ;)
 
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TalonMan is a remarkable person, to be able to cram so much fanboy mumbo jumbo into one post. Well done. I bet he was one of the people that attempted to belittle the 4870X2 because it was taking 2 GPUs to beat Nvidia's single. How shocking, now the shoe is on the other foot and suddenly Nvidia is the greatest for having the performance crown, never mind the dual GPU solution.

Remarkable I tells ya.
 
What are we defending here? The Radeon 5870 is $90 cheaper than the GTX-295. Perhaps the performance hype of the 5870 was touted to be a little higher than it actually is, but since the Radeon 3k debue, AMD has been about getting the best performance for your money, not about being the best performer.

Compare Radeon 5k series to Geforce 300 series.
 
Ranari said:
What are we defending here? The Radeon 5870 is $90 cheaper than the GTX-295. Perhaps the performance hype of the 5870 was touted to be a little higher than it actually is, but since the Radeon 3k debue, AMD has been about getting the best performance for your money, not about being the best performer.

Compare Radeon 5k series to Geforce 300 series.
Click to expand...

To think that AMD didn't want to have the fastest card on the planet, is being quite naive :)

And we can't compare the HD 5870 with anything other than previous Radeons and current GeForces.
 
Why do you wanna compare a single GPU card(5870) to a dual gpu card (gtx295)?
Why do you wanna compare a single GPU card(5870) to an SLI setup (gtx285/gtx295 in SLI or dual gpu sli setup in some benchmarks) ?

The above don't make sense and obviously if someone got some common sense and logic then you would know that the single card won't be able to keep up , now maybe if we're looking at 2 generations ahead ex: ATI 78xx series then yea maybe that would beat previous SLI or dual GPU's setups or even dual gpu sli setup.

I would go by "Best Bang for the Buck " and the way it is now , Yes the 5870 is at the top for giving the best performance/dx11/opengl3.1/opencl for its current price compared to everything else out there in that price range and features wise. Of course the fun part is to wait and see what Nvidia has to offer peformance/price wise with their GT3xx series.

And yes the 5870 did blow away the GTX285 (Non-SLI) in every benchmark far away and still kept up really close to the GTX295 and I think I've seen one bencharmk where the 5780 out performed the GTX295 by a few frames. And just wait until the new drivers are released by ATI and alot of numbers are going to change and the ATI card owners know what I'm talking about or what happens when ATI releases new drivers which is done on a monthly basis and they do optimize everything perfectly if
there was any issues with previous games unlike Nvidia where their drivers are all over the place.

To be honest I think ATI did a great great job with the single chip 5870.

I'm sure lots will dig what I said and lots won't but that's fine ;-) , I'm just trying to keep things logical as far as comparing things via benchmarks.

Cheers
 
leefuji said:
Why do you wanna compare a single GPU card(5870) to a dual gpu card (gtx295)?
Why do you wanna compare a single GPU card(5870) to an SLI setup (gtx285/gtx295 in SLI or dual gpu sli setup in some benchmarks) ?
Click to expand...

Heck, I was initially against putting an X2 card against a single too...

But the review sites don't see it that way...

http://www.neowin.net/news/main/08/08/12/4870x2-ati-claims-top-spot-in-performance-race-with-nvidia
"Today AMD/ATI has retaken the performance crown for the first time in over 2 years, not content with that they also likely to take second place too. With the release of the 4870X2 and in short order the 4850X2."


http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/253780-33-4870x2-trounces-280gtx
"ATI 4870x2 trounces the 280gtx"


http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...deon-hd-4870-x2-2gb-video-card-review-23.html
"Before I go on with this conclusion, let’s put one thing straight: the HD4870 X2 2GB is the absolute undisputed king of the single-card hill and probably will be for some time. It steamrolled over every single one of Nvidia’s offerings like a runaway freight train and made the GTX 280 look like nothing more than an also-ran in the grand scheme of things."


http://www.legitreviews.com/article/766/11/
" NVIDIA can no longer say they have the fastest graphics card and that has to hurt with the NVIDIA NVISION gathering just a couple weeks away."



http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-4870-x2-review-crossfire/
"The two products will be Radeon HD 4850 X2 and the Radeon HD 4870 X2. The new products will officially kick NVIDIA from their high-end crown, purely based on performance with a single board product."


Numerous others too...

It was fair game to put the 4870X2 againt the 280, and say that it took the 280's performance crown...

So now put the 295 against all single cards too. We should only be consistant. That was my point.
 
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leefuji said:
Why do you wanna compare a single GPU card(5870) to a dual gpu card (gtx295)?
Click to expand...

Because a GTX 295 is still ONE card. When you are using it, it acts as ONE card.

That's like saying why are you comparing two video cards with one having 8 chips of high density GDDR5, and one having 16 chips of low density GDDR5 but both still having 1 GB.
 
When 5870x2 hits, ATI will finally have both the single-GPU and the single-card performance crown. Then the fanboys can stop this stupid argument. . .

. . . of course then it's going to be another argument: "that's not fair! you can't compare 5870x2 to the 295! wait till GT300 comes out!!!"
 
smartpatrol said:
When 5870x2 hits, ATI will finally have both the single-GPU and the single-card performance crown. Then the fanboys can stop this stupid argument. . .

. . . of course then it's going to be another argument: "that's not fair! you can't compare 5870x2 to the 295! wait till GT300 comes out!!!"
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Nope, I now say all GPU's marketed as a single, should be treated as such.

Run anything you like againt the 295, and 5870X2, and GTX 395...

But we can't cry that single cards shouldn't run againt them. Too late for that in my book. :)
They already have...
They all should be treated 1 GPU now.
 
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TalonMan said:
Nope, I now say all GPU's marketed as a single, should be treated as such.

Run anything you like againt the 295, and 5870X2, and GTX 395...

But we can't cry that single cards shouldn't run againt them. Too late for that in my book. :)
They already have...
They all should be treated a 1 GPU now.
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1GPU means 1 GPU.

single card with 2 GPU is call SLI/CF card..

I have no idea where you got that logic from, they are clearly different thing..
 
Silus said:
To think that AMD didn't want to have the fastest card on the planet, is being quite naive :)

And we can't compare the HD 5870 with anything other than previous Radeons and current GeForces.
Click to expand...


Its actually True, ATI went after yields and price point vs being mega huge super performer..

there was a great write up about it here

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3469&p=10

Give it a read, it really is a great story of success and ATI's strategy. One of hte main reasons ATI is such a great GPU maker today. at the end you sortof just standup and cheer :)
 
Paying 25% more doesn't justify getting 20% more performance over a card with immature drivers that is compatible with new standards. Driver optimizations and DX11/OpenCL make the 295 less attractive to people that are either ATI-loyal or want a really fast single-gpu solution and don't care about company loyalty. Considering the 5870 is also by FAR more energy efficient, there isn't too much of a reason to buy a 295 now. Stick with what ya got now and get whatever DX11 card tickles you whenever it comes out.
 
Performance/mm2.

That's the only thing that counts.
- For long term profit.
- The measure of technological advantage
- For bang for the bucks

The repeated discussion about counting cards and GPUs/ cards seem outdated and rather stupid.

Performance / GPU area is the deal. It gives the degree of technological advantage. The rest is cosmetics.
 
Hahahahah

I love the 256bit rant. You guys really should put a lid on this guy he makes you all look bad, at least Silus knows wtf he's talking about when he does tech comparisons.
 
Domingo said:
Yeah, I have to say that reading these new 5870 reviews actually makes the 295 look better. I don't want one...but if they were to drop in price or if someone ran a sale on one I'd consider it.
Knowing Nvidia, they always tend to make their next gen out-do last gen's "double card," so I'm really interested to see what the G300 brings to the table.
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly the 9800 GX2 was basically tied with the GTX 280. The same goes for the 5870 and GTX 295 just about. I would take a 5870 over a 295 any day.
 
LAiN_OfTheWired said:
Paying 25% more doesn't justify getting 20% more performance over a card with immature drivers that is compatible with new standards. Driver optimizations and DX11/OpenCL make the 295 less attractive to people that are either ATI-loyal or want a really fast single-gpu solution and don't care about company loyalty. Considering the 5870 is also by FAR more energy efficient, there isn't too much of a reason to buy a 295 now. Stick with what ya got now and get whatever DX11 card tickles you whenever it comes out.
Click to expand...

I don't want to imply you should run out now, and buy a 295. I am looking foward to some DX11 goodness myself in the near future.

I only wanted to say I think running a 5870 against a 295 should be considered fare. That's it. Not what has the lowest power, or best bang for the buck. I was talking pure performance.

xBanzai89 said:
If I remember correctly the 9800 GX2 was basically tied with the GTX 280. The same goes for the 5870 and GTX 295 just about. I would take a 5870 over a 295 any day.
Click to expand...

I also think the GX2 and 280 were close... :)

As far as the 5870 and the 295, they aren't as close in performance to me.

"We collected several thousand benchmark and game results into a single result chart which shows the relative performance of the various graphics card out there, compared to the newly arrived Radeon HD 5870. "
http://www.madshrimps.be/vbulletin/f22/amd-radeon-hd-5870-hd-5850-performance-chart-66465/

Some of you may be correct about future drivers giving a performance increase to the 5870, but I need to see thoes drivers first.
To me the 295 still has the crown.

You are indeed free to pick the 5870 over the 295. I don't have any issue with that. I'm sure she would be a runner for you. ;)
It is a fine GPU, but it's not the king of performance.

With me already having a 295, I would be looking for a faster card with DX11. I do hope nVidia can deliver.
 
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