SystemCooling + AC

Erasmus354 said:
Summary of Thread

  • The Cuplex XT is a good block, very high restriction but it can hold its own and would probably shine with a strong pump.
  • 6mm tubing shows a measureable performance drop over 3/8" tubing. Some people may be willing to take this performance drop others may not.
  • The aquastream pump is quiet, and can and should have been "overclocked" in the SystemCooling review.
  • The EVO 120 radiator is not a very good choice for a watercooling system. Using a Thermochill or Black Ice radiator would produce better results.
  • AquaComputer makes nice components, but cannot provide a strong complete watercooling kit due to lacking in the radiator department. Besides mixing and matching is better anyways, blind company loyalty is ignorant.
  • The Storm is hands down a better block than the Cuplex XT, beating it at every turn. The only difference between the two is the strongly subjective looks category.
  • Intelligent interpretation of the common graphs given in waterblock tests is a must, and incorrect interpretation results to many pages of arguing between the ignorant and the informed.
  • The AquaComputer kit was the quietest of the cooling solutions reviewed, the lack of highly accurate sound testing methods hurt the AC kit in this area of the testing.
  • It doesn't matter if the testing was performed on a 0 or 10 year old motherboard so long as it was constant throughout the tests and the heatload was close to what modern processors put out.
  • People on [H] enjoy to argue
  • This thread has run its course and should be closed now

Did I miss any?
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I believe you covered it all, and I totally agree.
 
nikhsub1 said:
Well you see, unfortunately this is how it is here at the [H] and why most of the most knowledgeable do not post here.
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(If you're still reading this thread) Well, we don't have much else to discuss nowadays. Not many new products are coming out, there isn't much originality left, and water cooling in general has just about reached its performance peak. Just look in nearly any WC forum: the threads with the most posts are about new blocks/other components, and discussions about (at the time) new, or little-discussed topics.

Because I don;t have much else to discuss right now, on the subject of "just a couple of degrees":
If a couple degrees didn't matter, then there wouldn't be much reason to pick a Scythe Ninja over the (heatpipe) AMD stock cooler. The reason why a lot of people freet over a couple degrees (fret as in spending a few hours researching the best product combos, techniques, etc.) is that they don't want to keep spending money trying out different coolers, so when they buy, they want to buy the best performance for their dollar - there's no real reason why not to.

If someone is willing to buy your car for $15k, and another person will pay $16k, does "just a thousand dollars" matter that much?
 
dutchcedar said:
Apparently you see that as a fine reflection of "the enthusiast PC crowd and this forum in particular" and would like to argue the point. Have a go at it. Explain to me how the tenor of this thread casts a positive light on the watercooling community. Explain to me how the hundreds of posts in this thread have provided something positive.
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All of this seems to be a work in progress. I think the end result is that we might just have every frequent user here thinking in different terms - I've tried to think outside the box somewhat as a result. None of us have to "pick sides". We can find the advantages in flaws in any product or mentality and accept them. We can accept that others will do things for different reasons, and so long as everyone is content with what's in their rigs, we're satisfied. And finally, we can try and understand why others do things differently than we do, and we can do that in a respectful manner. I think there's some evidence of this in this thread, and that's good.

This topic is unique in that high bore guys and low bore guys (and gals) can come here and try to figure each other out. That may not have been the original intention, but that has what it has become, and I don't feel like it's entirely pointless to keep things moving. I think this topic should continue to roll along so long as it still holds momentum.
 
R1ckCa1n said:
Hate to say it, but I agree. I am going to do the unthinkable and say "good post".
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hahah that was unthinkable but i am glad to see the expanded "sums things up" bulleted list was accepted by us all. one small statement for E, one large step for the [H] WC forums!
 
phide said:
All of this seems to be a work in progress. I think the end result is that we might just have every frequent user here thinking in different terms - I've tried to think outside the box somewhat as a result. None of us have to "pick sides". We can find the advantages in flaws in any product or mentality and accept them. We can accept that others will do things for different reasons, and so long as everyone is content with what's in their rigs, we're satisfied. And finally, we can try and understand why others do things differently than we do, and we can do that in a respectful manner. I think there's some evidence of this in this thread, and that's good.

This topic is unique in that high bore guys and low bore guys (and gals) can come here and try to figure each other out. That may not have been the original intention, but that has what it has become, and I don't feel like it's entirely pointless to keep things moving. I think this topic should continue to roll along so long as it still holds momentum.
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If you're right, it would be a breath of fresh air. To me, at least, the whole 'puter buildin' thing is all about having fun and your take on things would help that along.

Here's to hoping you're right... ;)
 
DFI Daishi said:
that's fine. you're an innovatech fan. i'm a performance fan. i hope that everyone knows what "fan" is short for. it's pretty unlikely that we're ever going to see eye to eye on this.
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I'm a performance "fan" myself. However I judge performance on stability, ease of use (as in not worrying about adjusting OC because ambient is 5 degrees warmer this month), and real world measures. I could care less if I'm getting 5 extra FPS on Quake since anything over about 70 FPS the human eye can't tell the difference anyway and a .2 second improvement in load time isn't going to make much of a difference either. If your measure of "bleeding edge" is your PCMark score then I say the hell with it.

DFI Daishi said:
i know that i back off my OC during the summer. why don't you? you don't care about the extra MHz? fine. you're not a performance enthusiast. that's your choice. a few degrees make some difference, if you always ride the bleeding edge of what is stable. the extra cooling makes a difference for some of us.
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Again, apparently you and I measure performance differently.

DFI Daishi said:
where does it come from? "we are the large bore enthusiasts. we advocate performance and pushing the limits." vs. "we are the small bore enthusiasts. we advocate pragmatism and good looks." might be one place to look.
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Once again... wow, this is almost a refrain now... maybe I should write a song about it.

Let's take a poll... how many of the large-bore enthusiasts are "pushing the limits"? C'mon everyone, answer honestly now. Better yet, don't answer, just answer in your own mind. I'm not talking about the time you pushed the core to some mind numbing OC before backing it off for daily gaming (to save your processor investment), I'm talking about what you're running on a daily basis here.

There's probably a similiar percentage of small-bore people who are "pushing the limits" on a daily basis, maybe not on these forums but if we checked the German language forums we'd probably see similar brags.

DFI Daishi said:
incidently, i ALSO feel nothing but contempt for the fool in a cavalier with tonnes of kit who CAN'T pass me on the highway doing 160 Km/h, when i'm driving a largely stock and totally plain looking sentra. i don't care if it looks fast, if it can't deliver they're just useless add-ons.
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Ah, finally something I actually do have experience with... thank you for trying to build a corelation to cars. I have nothing but contempt for people who try to build 8-second cars for daily drivers. Wow, you got to that red light so much faster than I did... I'm impressed. Any moron can plumb nitros into a Civic, what does it matter when the first time they hit it they throw a rod? So what's the measure of performance? Your 1/4 mile time if you don't have a track to run it on, or the ability to get up to speed on an on-ramp to merge?

I've built performance cars, even made a sub-10-second run in a heavily modified pick-up. That truck was built for the track and was only driven there (where the speed performance actually mattered). My "grocery getter" on the other hand is modified to conserve gasoline and still deliver necessary perfomance to pass cars and merge on the freeway (tuned spark advance, ignition coil, non-OEM plugs, 10mm wires, tuned fuel injectors, etc). Both are "performance" built for different purposes.
 
Erasmus354 said:
I find it hilarious that now that this review is out real world testing is all of a sudden worthless and only the die sim results matter. Where is that link to TN's large smily that is rolling around laughing when you need it? The back peddling is so furious I am surprised some people here haven't hurt their neck from the whiplash and the stiff about face they made with their positions.
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I haven't been doing any back pedaling at all. And here is the cute guy:
icon_risota.gif
 
ikellensbro said:
One more thing: I always liked ProCooling's interactive graph, and testing down to 0.25gpm flowrate, because it seemed like the XT may have been receiving around that much flow with 1/4"id tubing in SystemCooling's review.
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I totally agree and also was wondering how Lee was going to work that in considering his test bench won't measure anything under 1/2 GPM.
 
DFI Daishi said:
...untill they have run the review with the pump at full speed, i don't have much to say other than that calls for the use of a rad other than then airplex kind of runs contrary to user claims that A-C provides "a complete and optimized watercooling SYSTEM."

fish or cut bait A-C fans: either you admit that no one manufacturer does everything the best and that entusiasts get their blocks from one company, their rads from another, their pumps from a third and fatter tubing yields better performance (up to a point), or you accept poor performance in reviews of your favourite equipment because they use ALL A-C equipment, "in it's intended usage."
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Can't argue with that kind of logic. ;) But why do a bit of the sic looking rigs that are also high end hardware also have a lot of AC gear in them? Do you really think the only reason they did it was for looks???

Until Sharka started importing Evo 120's recently I have hardly ever seen one used. Most people have been using the 240 and 360 variants and have been doing just fine...
 
BellaCroix said:
Ah, finally something I actually do have experience with... thank you for trying to build a corelation to cars. I have nothing but contempt for people who try to build 8-second cars for daily drivers. Wow, you got to that red light so much faster than I did... I'm impressed. Any moron can plumb nitros into a Civic, what does it matter when the first time they hit it they throw a rod? So what's the measure of performance? Your 1/4 mile time if you don't have a track to run it on, or the ability to get up to speed on an on-ramp to merge?

I've built performance cars, even made a sub-10-second run in a heavily modified pick-up. That truck was built for the track and was only driven there (where the speed performance actually mattered). My "grocery getter" on the other hand is modified to conserve gasoline and still deliver necessary perfomance to pass cars and merge on the freeway (tuned spark advance, ignition coil, non-OEM plugs, 10mm wires, tuned fuel injectors, etc). Both are "performance" built for different purposes.
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i'm fine with the rest of it, but you misunderstood my meaning on this one.

my sentra is NOT a fast car. the point is that i know that it's not fast, and so i don't go around trying to make it LOOK fast. the looks don't make the car.

the contempt is for those who take a practical grocery getter/commuter and add a huge wing, loud resonator, hood scoop and a pile of other crap to it, in an attempt to make it LOOK fast, when it isn't fast at all. all show and no go.

i agree that there's no reason to drive a drag racer to the store when you run out of milk. no use for the speed/power, and it wears on your tuned machine.

so far as any idiot being able to run nitrous goes.......hell, most idiots around here would be hard pressed to FIND nitrous......there is only one shop in town that is liscenced to install and do recharges, and it's nowhere near all the little shops selling cheap spinners and cherry bomb mufflers.

it's just the notion of putting that much cash into modifying the car without helping performance at all that bugs me.

no civics, no nitrous, no ricey exhaust, no drag strip. that was not the point.
 
BellaCroix said:
Let's take a poll... how many of the large-bore enthusiasts are "pushing the limits"? C'mon everyone, answer honestly now. Better yet, don't answer, just answer in your own mind. I'm not talking about the time you pushed the core to some mind numbing OC before backing it off for daily gaming (to save your processor investment), I'm talking about what you're running on a daily basis here.
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Problem is most people on this forum are in denial that there are other components in their rig that are holding them back and not the cooling........
 
phide said:
I suppose it still bothers me that they have to stamp "Aqua Computer. Made in Germany" on every feasible portion of everything they make, but it's not so bad.
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The only place their name is on is the waterblocks plexi tops and it is done quite tastefully IMHO. Besides if you owned a manufacturing company wouldn't you want to have your name on your product?
 
Too much isn't good though. Just look at the Thermaltake Xaser. Thermaltkae everywhere, orange, blinking lighgts left and right, and lit up checkerboard. That's an example of too much. Something like just a little logo on there somewhere, like engraved on the plexy on a waterblock, that's a good amount. Not too much, not too little.
 
Punx_Clever said:
Actually, what the whole review shows is what E354 and the others have said all along: The block is a good block, one of the best out there. But when you put it with 1/4" tubing, a weak pump, and an outdated tube-style radiator, well, it dont matter how good the block is, the loop is gonna suck. The watercooling "system" that TN has preached about AC providing has been blown out of the water, not the block.
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What the heck are you talking about? Take a look at FF and tell me if I have been preaching what you are talking about. I didn't see anything in that review that even closely approximated what I am building. I use BI Pro's and waterblocks that suit the intended purpose. In my CPU loop I have a restrictive XT, a regular TwinPlex and a Mosfet cooler that are very unrestrictive. The HD loop has Koolance coolers that are also fairly restrictive. And the GPU loop uses a pair of the new style TwinPlex Pro's until I can get them modified for better flow. They all have pumps (Aquastream) that can run about the same flow as the Eheim 1048 and are tied together by one common control system called an Aquaero.
 
Erasmus354 said:
He was remarking to the fact that recently TN has been bashing other companies and remarking that AquaComputer is better than them because it provides "complete watercooling systems" which obviously isn't the case.
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Now where do you think Swiftech and DD get their radiators from? Do you think they make them themselves? One comes from China and the other one comes from just outside Manilla IIRC. IYRC, I made that statement in jest just to keep this thread going while we were waiting for the review. However, the statement does hold true in regards to the electronics that AC sells to integrate watercooling systems (aka computerized) :p
 
Erasmus354 said:
If the EVO120 fails to compare favorably to other 120mm counterparts, what makes the EVO 240 compare favorably to other dual 120mm counterparts, or does it?
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Probably not, but the extra cooling capacity of the 240/360 makes it a mute point. Most systems run just fine on a single 120.
 
Etacovda said:
lol at this thread, eh
TN, you did noticed he mentioned the pump overclocking, yes?

Hilarity...

does mention the low noise though, which is admirable - my main aim for watercooling at any rate.
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Yeah that was the screwy part of the review! He obviously knew that the pump rate could be changed, but didn't even do it. The instructions are quite clear about it.... :rolleyes:
 
Erasmus354 said:
Summary of Thread

  • The Cuplex XT is a good block, very high restriction but it can hold its own and would probably shine with a strong pump.
  • 6mm tubing shows a measureable performance drop over 3/8" tubing. Some people may be willing to take this performance drop others may not.
  • The aquastream pump is quiet, and can and should have been "overclocked" in the SystemCooling review.
  • The EVO 120 radiator is not a very good choice for a watercooling system. Using a Thermochill or Black Ice radiator would produce better results.
  • AquaComputer makes nice components, but cannot provide a strong complete watercooling kit due to lacking in the radiator department. Besides mixing and matching is better anyways, blind company loyalty is ignorant.
  • The Storm is hands down a better block than the Cuplex XT, beating it at every turn. The only difference between the two is the strongly subjective looks category.
  • Intelligent interpretation of the common graphs given in waterblock tests is a must, and incorrect interpretation results to many pages of arguing between the ignorant and the informed.
  • The AquaComputer kit was the quietest of the cooling solutions reviewed, the lack of highly accurate sound testing methods hurt the AC kit in this area of the testing.
  • It doesn't matter if the testing was performed on a 0 or 10 year old motherboard so long as it was constant throughout the tests and the heatload was close to what modern processors put out.
  • People on [H] enjoy to argue
  • This thread has run its course and should be closed now

Did I miss any?
Click to expand...

Nope and I totally agree with your summation. :)
 
Top Nurse said:
Now where do you think Swiftech and DD get their radiators from? Do you think they make them themselves? One comes from China and the other one comes from just outside Manilla IIRC. IYRC, I made that statement in jest just to keep this thread going while we were waiting for the review. However, the statement does hold true in regards to the electronics that AC sells to integrate watercooling systems (aka computerized) :p
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I dont believe AC makes absolutely everything they sell either. The fact of the matter is however, that the radiators that Swiftech and DangerDen choose to pair with their setups are much better than the radiators that AC choose to use.
 
I'm failing to see a comparison between AC radiators and their main competition here in the states (thermochill / BI). I am also failing to see any evidence as to why the tube style design is better either. Overall it is hard to follow the google gibberish, but what I gather they are merely comparing the size of radiators and not the effectiveness of the EVO series as a whole.
 
Yes, it's already know that you won't see much lower temperatures going from a 2x120mm to a 3x120mm radiator, unless you have a huge heat load (pelts most likely). From what I can tell, that guy was basically saying that in some cases, the added restriction of a bigger/multiple radiators can offset any performance gains from the increased cooling capacity - this would have to either be a case of a really poor performing radiator, or an extremely restrictive one. The guy tested the radiators with a very small heat load (72.5 watts) as well, which is less heat than some gpus these days produce. I think most of us can agree that Black Ice and Thermochill radiators are much less restrictive than Evos, and perform better as well.
 
Arguing for the performance advantages of a tube style radiator is kinda silly, but ya gotta admit, these guys are pretty serious about things... this is from the [translated] article:
One will have to die here compromises.
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:eek:

:D
 
Erasmus354 said:
I'm failing to see a comparison between AC radiators and their main competition here in the states (thermochill / BI). I am also failing to see any evidence as to why the tube style design is better either. Overall it is hard to follow the google gibberish, but what I gather they are merely comparing the size of radiators and not the effectiveness of the EVO series as a whole.
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I personally think the EVO's are for the people who want a grill from AC. Otherwise Thermochill is the way to go if you can fit that beast in your case ;)
 
R1ckCa1n said:
I personally think the EVO's are for the people who want a grill from AC. Otherwise Thermochill is the way to go if you can fit that beast in your case ;)
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I find it interesting that in BillA's evaluation of different types of radiators, he says the ONLY advantage of tube style radiators like the EVO series is that they are cheaper to make. The performance just isn't up to snuff when trying to compare with the other radiators on the market. Interestingly, those savings in manufacturing costs definitely aren't being passed onto the consumer looking at the outrageous prices on the EVO rads :eek: .
 
R1ckCa1n said:
Otherwise Thermochill is the way to go if you can fit that beast in your case ;)
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heh thermochill is the way to go REGARDLESS, if you can afford it.

so what grills DO you use on a thermochill rad?
 
el rolio said:
heh thermochill is the way to go REGARDLESS, if you can afford it.

so what grills DO you use on a thermochill rad?
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You could always use the thermochill grills...or I think the AC Ryan grills will fit as well. Its not like there is a shortage of grills for radiators besides AC. As an added bonus those grills dont have "AQUA COMPUTER - MADE IN GERMANY" branded across it :D
 
Erasmus354 said:
You could always use the thermochill grills...or I think the AC Ryan grills will fit as well. Its not like there is a shortage of grills for radiators besides AC. As an added bonus those grills dont have "AQUA COMPUTER - MADE IN GERMANY" branded across it :D
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IIRC the ACRyan grills don't fit Thermochill rads because the mounting holes are different. They work great on BIPs and BIXs though :D
 
penguin said:
IIRC the ACRyan grills don't fit Thermochill rads because the mounting holes are different. They work great on BIPs and BIXs though :D
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yep thats what i thought. and i like the look of the AC/ AC Ryan grills if i were to ever use... grills

hmms so my only choice is thermochill branded grills? the AC Ryans for sure dont work?
 
Erasmus354 said:
You could always use the thermochill grills...
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I also kind of like the look of black standard-style fan grills. I believe the ones I buy from Jab-Tech are powdercoated, so they're durable as hell, and match nicely with flat black ThermoChill rads and black fans. This is all assuming you have a black case, however.

Perhaps you could consider doing your own grills on a water jet/mill, rolio. Something to think about.
 
You can get any grill to fit any radiator if you are willing to do a little modding. Lots of people use AC grills on a quite wide array of radiators including BI series, Evo's, and I looked at some of the Thermochill as not being very difficult as well. BTW, the AC Ryan grills have been reputed to not look very good compared to an AC grill if you are into those kind of things.
 
el rolio said:
hmms so my only choice is thermochill branded grills? the AC Ryans for sure dont work?
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You are correct and boy are they freaking SWEET.
 
theseeker said:
So does everyone prefer Thermochill over BIP? If so why?
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I think they each serve their purpose. The Black Ice series radiators are inexpensive (now at least) and offer very nice performance. The Thermochill radiators however have been specifically engineered for top notch performance in watercooling systems. The PA series radiators was developed in conjunction with all the knowledgeable people at procooling. The PA series is really nice because it has been optimized for performance with lower cfm quiet fans. The HE series works well for high heat dissipation if you want to use some screamers as well.

You just cant beat the PA series right now for performance per dB (per size--you could always just get some ginormous monster rad and run it passively)

A bit off topic, but HWLabs is coming out with a new series of radiators soon. It is similar to the Black Ice except that instead of having one set of fins between the tubes, it has two. They also did some work on the cosmetics and usability of the radiator it seems (M3 threads for the fan screws). linky
 
theseeker said:
So does everyone prefer Thermochill over BIP? If so why?
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They are heavier. ;) More metal generally means better thermal conduction all other things being equal. I think they are :eek:
 
theseeker said:
So does everyone prefer Thermochill over BIP? If so why?
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Thermochill gives you the ability to run low CFM (low noise) and acheive great results.

Down sides:

1. Currently only DD can distribute in US. Major downage for me as I refuse to buy from them.
2. Must order overseas and pay more than you should. Was worth it to me just not to order from DD.
3. Grills can only come from Thermochill
4. IT'S HUGE

Pluses:
1. Very low CFM fans required
2. Looks are a go!
3. Can order direct from Thermochill
4. Works very well
5. Did I say it works very well and requires low CFM fans?
 
R1ckCa1n said:
Currently only DD can distribute in US. Major downage for me as I refuse to buy from them.
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Um...plenty of other US etailers still sell them:
http://jab-tech.com/Thermochill-c-260.html
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=200&sort=20a&page=2 (scroll to the bottom)
http://store.pcpowerzone.com/danrad.html
http://www.voyeurmods.com/index.php?action=category&id=2&subid=15

I also found this article/review (actually a couple years old) by Bill Adams, which has some good numbers toward the end comparing the performance of 80, 92, 120, 2x120, & 3x120mm radiators.
 
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