Tax Return Came, Now Dreaming Of A Samsung 244T

Viewsonic has 10 dead pixel policy, so if you get anything up to 9 dead pixels you will be stuck with it.
 
Sorry to hear about your bad luck DasFox. Definitely would sour my taste for a new brand. I have good luck with apple products so I am pleased, but if I had the same experience as you I would be thinking the same thing. There should be new panels out in a month or so that will be better than anything out right now, so if you can wait just have something hold you off until then.
 
Ok everywhere I go I hear, if you can wait, there are new LCDs coming out, well who and what is coming, besides Dell, which I could careless about them.

Sheesh buying a gaming LCD is such a PAIN, LOL.

ALOHA
 
Yeah it is a pain, and who knows what is coming out.

There is talk of a new HP coming out, along with that Dell. I agree with you in not being too interested in a new dell coming out, because I saw one of their new monitors at school the other day and the new design looked like a piece. Not sure about what else.

Trying to find a large screen is difficult as their aren't many choices. Thats why I just went ahead and paid the extra for the Apple, but unfortunately that didn't work out for you either. And I didn't feel like waiting until who knows when.
 
ToastyX said:
Do NOT get the Samsung 244T, especially for gaming. It has a horrendous amount of lag. See this thread for more information: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1026393

I've tried several monitors, including the Samsung 244T and the Dell 2405FPW, and that thread mirrors my experience.

For gaming, I recommend the 23" Apple Cinema Display. It has virtually no lag when compared side by side with a CRT running at 60 Hz while the Samsung and the Dell lag way behind. The difference is laughable.

The TCO certification doesn't really matter.
Click to expand...


While I agree the 2405 has more noticible lag then the Apple SIPS Screen, its not "horrendous" :p It's barley noticible to me comparing it to my 20" SIPS monitor, I game on it aswell, oblivion, bw2, cs:s, bf2, l2,

it does have a bit more shaddowing then a 16ms SIPS panel but nothing that really bothers me and im pretty picky =p
 
Well of course we always know something new is coming out, but I thought by your statement you knew what was coming when.

I mean people are making it sound like, they know what is coming out.

So there is no real word in the community that has been put out there about some particular future models?

I mean if no one can say for sure, then this sounds like a crap shot to me, and I'm not sure I want to just sit and wait till whenever.

At this point the next two best choices are either the, HP L2335 and the Sony SDM-P234.
Personally at this point in time I'd go with the Sony. I'm not a fan of HP, unless the community has some reasons to tell me otherwise in getting this over the Sony.

ALOHA
 
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but if you're looking for perfection, you probably won't find it. Trust me, I've been there. That's why I tried several different monitors. If I knew you were as picky as I am, I wouldn't have recommended any monitor because honestly, they all suck in different ways. It all comes down to what crap you are willing to put up with.

I tried the HP L2335. It has the same panel as the Apple, but for some reason, it dithers colors while the Apple does not. This is especially visible in gradients. It looks like some sort of patterned dithering. I also went through three units with different manufacturing dates, and all three had very bad backlight bleeding, much worse than the Apple. On one unit, the panel wasn't even mounted properly. The image was slanted and off-center. I ended up returning them.

I recently tried the Sony SDM-P234. It's almost the same as the Apple except it has a little more lag, so there's really no point in getting the Sony over the Apple for gaming. It does give more control over color, so people who are more concerned with color accuracy might like the Sony better, but for gaming and normal usage, that doesn't really matter.

I recommended the Apple because it has virtually no lag, which is good for gaming, and it doesn't dither colors like the HP. It does have some minor backlight bleeding, but the Sony was basically the same, and the HP was much worse. If you're not happy with the Apple, you probably won't be happy with the HP or the Sony.

I saw the image you posted on Apple Discussions: http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture0023nz.jpg

That's not bad at all. In fact, you might have been able to even it out a bit by using the included cloth and rubbing from the area of the leakage to the center of the screen. Lowering the backlight brightness might have helped a little as well. If all else fails, you could send it in for repair.

Yes, you shouldn't have to deal with this crap, but current technology sucks.

I haven't tried the ViewSonic VP2330wb, but based on the specs, it seems to have a P-MVA panel with overdrive. I haven't seen a monitor with this panel yet. I'd like to try it, but at this point, I'm tired of swapping monitors. What worries me is MVA is similar to PVA, and PVA monitors with overdrive are the ones that lag the most. I don't know if that applies to MVA panels though.



Digital Viper-X- said:
While I agree the 2405 has more noticible lag then the Apple SIPS Screen, its not "horrendous" :p It's barley noticible to me comparing it to my 20" SIPS monitor, I game on it aswell, oblivion, bw2, cs:s, bf2, l2
Click to expand...
It's the Samsung 244T that's horrendous. It has even more lag than the Dell 2405FPW.
 
Personally, I'm looking forward to this monitor from BenQ...

BenQ FP241W (BFI) High Definition
The BenQ FP241W (BFI) wide-screen LCD monitor features the world-leading BFI technology, a high resolution of 1920x1200 and HDMI connector. The world-leading BFI (Black Frame Insertion) Technology is the advanced technology of Advanced Motion Accelerator (AMA) Technology. By using BFI Technology, the spatial-temporal integration can effectively reduce the ghosting effect caused by the slow pursuit and low pass effect of the human eyes thus provides clearer motion pictures.

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1038984
 
Well I'm not looking for perfection, I'm just looking for something that should work properly, whatever that happens to mean.

ToastyX what do you mean by lag in these LCDs for gaming? What exactly is laggin?

Well I just returned two 23" ACDs and just as I walked in to the store today, the girl at the counter tells me if you want to return this, then we are not going to be able to sell you another one.

I mean the NERVE!

Anyhow I was just looking at the reviews over at NewEgg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824006084

I don't there is really one bad thing said here over this LCD at NewEgg, and a few guys seem to really like it for gaming.

No one mentions anything about any lag.

Now how bad is this lag you mention for the Sony?

THANKS
 
ToastyX, well if the lag is really bad in the Sony, then maybe I should just buy a smaller, cheaper LCD and hang out with that for the next 6mos until some REAL killer 23" LCDs hit the scene, if anything does come along soon that is.

What do you think about the Viewsonic VX2025wm:
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktopdisplays/lcddisplays/xseries/vx2025wm/

Also have you used the VP231wb or VP2330wb ?

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktopdisplays/lcddisplays/proseries/vp231wb/
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktopdisplays/lcddisplays/proseries/vp2330wb/

THANKS
 
By lag, I mean what's on the screen is slightly behind what should be on the screen.

The lag isn't bad on the Sony. My point is, considering the Apple and the Sony are similar, including similar backlight bleeding, I'd rather have the Apple since the Sony lags a little more. Unless you put them side by side and test for the lag like I did, you probably wouldn't notice it, which is why nobody else mentioned it.

I haven't tried any of the ViewSonic monitors, but the VP231wb uses the same panel as the Apple, HP, and Sony. The VP2330wb uses a panel I haven't seen so far.



Edit: I just noticed the VP231wb seems to have overdrive: "Amplified Impulse technology accelerates grayscale transitions for superior motion video and gaming."

If overdrive adds lag to PVA panels like some people believe it does, I wonder if it adds lag to S-IPS panels.
 
If you like CRT monitors, that might be a better option. I'm so used to LCD monitors that I can't go back anymore. I like the sharpness, perfect geometry, and brightness of LCD monitors as well as not having a 93 pound behemoth sitting on my desk, but CRTs have no lag, no motion blur, no image persistence, and no backlight bleeding. It basically comes down to what crap you are willing to put up with. SED is supposed to be the best of both worlds, but that's still a couple of years away. :(
 
Well put it this way I have a $2500 SLI box, I want a monitor to complement it. Look at the link below for "Das' GameRig" and you'll see the specs.

In a nuttshell I want A killer monitor.

Ok let me say this besides the slight background leakage with the 23" Apple I had it seemed to be really nice.

Now that I had a chance to play with one of those for one day, and then I put that Sony on my desk, do you think I'd notice any difference?

I mean, from what you said, you can't really tell, see the lag difference between the Sony and Apple.

DARN again, I wonder if it's worth getting that Sony 23" or actually even though it's smaller the Viewsonic VX2025wm would give a better gaming experience.


Hmmm Hmmm Hmmm
 
The BenQ FP241W (BFI) will be pointless if its using any kind of PVA panel since it will introduce input lag and worse it its tons of overdrive.

The HP is hitting the UK in under 7 days, UK retailers and HP UK have the monitor listed.
 
If you need something now, then it seems like the 23-24" are not there yet. I have seen your thread over on Anandtech also and you seem quite upset about us mentioning future LCDs coming out, so I will stick to what is available now. I have been through many monitors as well, just like toastyx, because it is really impossible to have one that does everything.

20.1" VX2025 was amazing, colors, ghosting, input everything excellent. As far as backlight bleeding, that had it as well, with each of the four corners emitting a glow, and this seems to be the norm on every one I've seen online. That and for my rig I felt that 20" wide is just too small, so I gave it to my brother.

Sony CRT will be large, and excellent for gaming. However, going back to a CRT after using an LCD for me will not work. Size wise and sharpness of text is a big downside for them.
 
guys the large screens are all coming in may/june thats only weeks, wait it out as the spec of these monitors will be much better than lasts years stuff.

Heres whats comming:

Samsung 245T (S-PVA)
BenQ PF241W + BFI variant (no idea what panel, my guess its LG philips)
HP 2465 (P-MVA but I maybe wrong, the 6ms response time matches the samsung but the viewing angle matches the AUO M-PVA panel, UK confirmed late April availability)
DELL 2407FPW (S-PVA, confirmed May 6th UK availability)
Apple 23" (no details on this but likely before WDC in august)
NEC 23" AS-IPS (LM230WU3 LCD module is available, my guess this will be available after the HP and DELL screens)

Also 30" samsung but S-PVA.

I suggest people avoid S-PVA panels unless your not bothered with the viewing angles or dont play games.
 
Najeroni, not sure what gave you the idea I was upset because people mentioned LCDs where coming.

All I wanted to know and was asking, since people where talking about this, I just wanted to know where they found out about this information.

kleox64, where did you find out about these? I mean besides the Dell, that one has been common knowledge for sometime. As far as the others, maybe I didn't look hard enough, but is there any one source out there that is like always doing reviews, followups on LCDs exclusively? I didn't notice anything here at Hardocp.

THANKS

P.S. I'll be a good boy and wait! :)
 
I've been watching this thread for a while, we had a similar at cgtalk, now, do you guys think that this really similar models like 245t and 2407 from Dell are comming out because they fixed this input lag or? Any ideas what could be causing it? Like input electronics gets too much data?
 
Well guys unless these new LCDs boast gaming on a 23"-24" with the same performance as a 20"-21" MAX details without performance loss, looks like honestly, that gaming on the 21" range the safer bet for MAX detail and a better gaming experience.

I'm starting to get the feeling that gaming at 1900x1200 is going to have it's downside, of course we all know the frames are going to drop, that is a given.

But what about more game lag, slower response, stutter, etc...


Well all I can say is at this point performance and quality still seem to be somewhere within the grasp of the 21" LCDs and 23" are more towards leaning on the image side, with a drop in the performance.

But all I can hope is if you have a awesome 21" LCD, that the image quality isn't going to be that much different at 1600x over say 1900x

ALOHA
 
Full settings at 1920x1200 in BF2 here off a single 7900gt, with no slow downs at all. Your setup is fine for even pushing I would say a 30" LCD, just have to find the right one.
 
Someone mentioned this to me over at AnandTech:

----------------------------------------------
in 6 to 9 months directx 10 may be launched then with the new instructions coders might do MASSIVE USE of shaders and then any directx 9 rig would experience a great performance decrease with the most recently released content
---------------------------------------

Yeah I forgot about DX10, errr makes me really think now to just go with something like a 20"-21", because in that time period we may need to upgrade our cards, hmmm

Sheesh always upgrading, LOL
 
Najeroni said:
Full settings at 1920x1200 in BF2 here off a single 7900gt, with no slow downs at all. Your setup is fine for even pushing I would say a 30" LCD, just have to find the right one.
Click to expand...

You really should tell me this with Fraps running in the background while gaming.

http://www.fraps.com/

There is no way you can game with a higher resolution and not loose frames. Now granted at times there is no visual difference in performance, but there certainly can be times when it might become noticable. It all really boils down to presonal preferences and how picky or sensitive of a gamer you are to these things.

At this point in time I'll probably hang out to see how the latest 23"-24" LCDs that are coming soon from BenQ, Nec, HP and Samsung, turn out.

ALOHA
 
Of course there will be a drop in frames, but you said you have a dual sli rig with even better specs than mine so I dont see any reason why you are concerned with frame rates in ANY game. And if anyone mentions oblivion, they need to realise that that game is junk. All that time in development and can't even run properly on current systems.

And their certainly ISNT times where this is a drop in performance at that res and full details, completely smooth from artillery strikes to sniping. I'm well aware of what a slow down wouldd be like and am not getting any.
 
Najeroni said:
Of course there will be a drop in frames, but you said you have a dual sli rig with even better specs than mine so I dont see any reason why you are concerned with frame rates in ANY game. And if anyone mentions oblivion, they need to realise that that game is junk. All that time in development and can't even run properly on current systems.

And their certainly ISNT times where this is a drop in performance at that res and full details, completely smooth from artillery strikes to sniping. I'm well aware of what a slow down wouldd be like and am not getting any.
Click to expand...


I'm with you there on what you are saying. Personally with all the high-specs, demands coming out in the new-generation games, I really didn't know what to expect. But yes I did expect to play on a 24" 1920X1200 MAX settings and not have a problem, and if I did, then HELL, how much money does one have to spend in order to this, was the thoughts running around in my head.

Yeah I better be able to for a few years to come, or this is just ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS, with my games specs not to be able to.

ALOHA
 
OK, this is slightly off-topic only in that I am not a big gamer.
It does concern the 2405FPW and Apple 23" displays. I didn't see the need for a new thread since some of you may have useful comments about these questions:
I purchased a 2405FPW 2 months ago that had a scratch on the LCD, but otherwise was a very nice panel. Since then, Dell did two exchanges for brand new monitors, and each one was worse than the original, other than the scratch. This last one has backlight leakage quite visible when I put up full-screen black or green. Will I always see leakage with any large LCD these days?
Anyhow, for some reason, since I had incidents open with Dell, they are still willing to give me a refund after 2 months! I have two days to decide to do this. I have been watching off-the-air HDTV on the Dell which looks VERY nice, but as a monitor it is far too bright. I turned the brightness down to zero, and it is still almost blinding. Again, full-screen black, white and colors don't look very pure, and the monitor pumps out a LOT more heat than my 19" Samsung for sure.
I would like the best possible monitor for general Windows and graphics programs use, with occasional gaming.
Would the Apple 23" be the way to go?
If so, should I just ignore its specs and short warranty? It would appear (on paper) to be only superior to the Dell in pixel pitch, but have much lower brightness (which is fine) and contrast ratio. Also, I am going to lose the component input.
Comments more than welcome.
Thanks!

Andrew
 
No complaints whatsoever here with my cinema display. Colors look excellent and definitely not blindingly bright. Seem just right. I've got some backlight leakage but I've learned to accept that with every LCD I've owned.

If you are using it as your tv though as well, the 2405 will be obviously better having the input. I am using my cinema for strictly pc usage, and for games and work it is excellent. Not to worried about the warranty, because within that one year I'm sure new panels will be out and I will sell this and upgrade.Plus I trust Apple and their service over Dell.
 
Why do they all have backlight leakage?
Is it worse with the larger panels? My 19" Samsung 910T does not have any visible leakage.
Actually, my only gripes about the Dell are:
1.) Extremely bright, to the point of bothering my eyes even turned down to zero. My understanding is that they will dim over a month or two of useage?
2.) Backlight leakage, which I thought was major, but based on the pictures posted in this thread, it is less substantial than that, so it may be minor. I only see it with a full-screen black or green. I don't notice it in normal Windows use.
3.) It is a Dell. I never would have considered a Dell, but there were so many good reviews. Yes, I realize that Dell is a big advertiser and PAYS for good reviews that way, but even user reviews like on CNet were like 95+ percent positive.

Other than the brightness and leakage, the Dell is a very sharp, accurate display that puts out wonderful high-definition TV pictures.
So, you are telling me that minor backlight leakage has to be lived with, correct?

Andrew
 
DasFox said:
So for a 24" range sized LCD, it sounds like from this crowd, that for high-end 1900x1200 LCD gaming the Apple 23" can't be beat?

For price and size that is.

THANKS
Click to expand...

The HP 23" beats the apple in every way, imho. They're the same panel, but HP added some useful features to it, whereas apple just added red tint. :p (I'm referring to the pink/red issues the apple 23" had when it was first available, issues that probably have been fixed by now).

Component inputs on the HP, a stand with more range of movement, PIP, etc.
 
Najeroni said:
Full settings at 1920x1200 in BF2 here off a single 7900gt, with no slow downs at all. Your setup is fine for even pushing I would say a 30" LCD, just have to find the right one.
Click to expand...

If you run bf2 at 1920x1200 it cuts off the top and the bottom, fyi. It looks better on your panel, but you're missing out on game information that could be important. :)

I run it at 1600x1200 with bars for exactly that reason.

But to address the point about gaming at 1920x1200, I've only tried two games that I couldn't run max at 1920x1200, King Kong Enhanced Version---because it is a buggy POS---and Oblivion. That is with 7800gxt sli and fx-55.
 
You guys may want to check out my Dell 2407 vs 2405 vs 2007 vs etc comparisons.

The Dell 2x07's appear to have a shadow above any text bug.

See here:
2407_Test.jpg


Link: http://simon.fearby.com/temp/ocau/reviews/2407_Test.jpg

Also more info in forums here:

http://bulkbuyer.com.au/community/forums/3/6477/ShowPost.aspx#6383

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38446#38446

http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?p=5834174#post5834174
 
Update 7th May 2006:

I received an email from Dell asking me to try a new 2407 firmware. It was not a fimrware but a monitor driver file (the same original driver infact).

Driver:
http://supportapj.dell.com/support/...1&vercnt=1&formatcnt=1&libid=22&fileid=158983

I hope Dell release a real fimrware (monitor side) fix for this or it is going back for a refund as so many have by other 2407 owners.

I have updated my comparison pic (before and after the driver update):

1.7MB Comparison: http://simon.fearby.com/temp/ocau/reviews/2407_Test.jpg

I will keep you posted.
 
well, i don't know what is all about, but... you should go with some good 20-21'' monitor, not 24''. you can pick up Samsung 215T or somethink ;)
 
Christ, I can't believe how fucked up these 2x07 monitors are How the hell did Dell sign them off as ready to be shipped to customers?
 
Tell me about it. Grrrrrr. I am so pissed with Dell. I am boxing up my 2007fp and returning it tomorrow.

First off when I ordered it, the were shipping LG S-IPS panels, but I got a Samsung S-PVA.Turns out it probably didn't matter anyway.

I have banding and that wierd blur shadow. Something else, I think the whole pixel pattern is unstable. I owned a 2405 and that had rock stable pixles and no blur. Screenshots were stable.

When I try screenshots of the 2007fp I get rainbow type moire, that indicates the pixels are shifting. You can see it in the nice comparison photo the other guy posted above.

These monitors are hosed by crappy electronics. Get far, far away and stay away.
 
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