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Cather: sound about right?
sounds like TN is just trying to start some shit...
I think top nurse is one of those people who don't take into the factor of advancements.
Technology changes Top Nurse. Cathar was right about low flow 3 years ago, and now he is right again just due to the fact that technology has changed. Low flow 3 years ago was garbage, now it is just a little worse than high flow systems.
Uh, how is that wrong, even now? All that has changed is the scale of the differences. Bigger tubes are still the best, but the question is, "By how much?".
Seriously, I have absolutely no idea where you're going with this, other than as a perverse demonstration of defective logical reasoning.
The only blocks that ever demonstrated superior performance with small-bore tubing were those where the tubing size determined the jet velocity in an impingement action.
sounds like TN is just trying to start some shit...
LOL. winner.
Seriously, whatever. I don't have the time to waste on you TN.
Go focus your rants on someone who is prepared to entertain your dribble. I won't be.
TN...are you unhappy in general or just argumentative on forums?
TN...are you unhappy in general or just argumentative on forums?
Why do you think someone is trying to start shit just because they question authority?
Seriously, whatever. I don't have the time to waste on you TN.
Go focus your rants on someone who is prepared to entertain your dribble. I won't be.
I think that was what you also said the last time as well. Guess we gotta wait another few years to see what's up again.
I a very happy person, why do you ask?
She just seems utterly incapable of divorcing the issue of tubing size from the water-blocks from some particular manufacturer, attempting to turn analysis of the effects of tubing size into some pro-AC rant.
Larger tubing will offer less restriction, and therefore more flow, on ALL blocks. Given the same pumping power, and hence heat-dump, it has been proven again, and again, and again, and again, that given the same heat dump into a loop that more flow equates to better performance from all water-blocks and all radiators.
What has altered is the scale of it. FWIW, I never historically stated that the differences were 5C, more like 2-2.5C at worst, for some specific scenarios. I don't know who first arrived at the 5C figure, but it wasn't I. I can only presume that the 5C figure was in comparing a weak pump with small tubing, to a strong pump with large tubing, given some same specific example block, but I don't know the answer to that, 'cos I never said it nor ever observed it.
Changing the pump + tubing, is not the same issue as this thread, which is choosing to fix the pump and the waterblock, and just analyse the effects of changing the tubing + fittings.
I simply fail to understand why the simplicity of this analytical approach is so hard to grasp for some. Quite amazingly, I somewhat expected more fallout from the large-bore grognards, but aside from one or two hecklers who quickly grasped the issue with some friendly hand-holding, I find myself being attacked by those who should find comfort in such analysis. I can only presume such people must be somehow mentally challenged.
So, back on track. I do like many of routing techniques that "small-bore" tubing brings to the table. I intensely do not like the cost of AC stuff, so I do not even consider AC. $560 for a rad?! I don't care how many bells and whistles it has. But then, who cares. To each their own.
So back to my original question: Who else makes "low-flow" components? And why do the "low-flow" people only see AC as the "low-flow" soluition?
Edit: FWIW, AC does make some VERY nice looking equipment. I doubt anyone would argue that. I just do not like the associated cost.
I have a question(s): Whenever "low-flow" is mentioned, it becomes associated with "small-bore"/Aqua Computer. Why? Is AC the only "low-flow" manufacturer out there? Who else makes "low-flow" components?
I get the impression from these threads that in order to be "low-flow", you have to use AC. Why? It does not make sense. For example, R1ckCa1n uses a dtek fuzion in his "low-flow" system. The fuzion just happens to be choice of many "hi-flow" systems. I believe that Ranker also uses the fuzion?
I use 7/16" tubing. Part of the reason is that I have an external box. The tubing run between this box and the computer is about 4 feet each way. With the larger tubing, I maintain a 4L/M flow rate thru the loop. Just about right according to Cather. I doubt that I could maintain this rate with 1/4" or 5/16" tubing. Some may not like the idea of an external box. Who cares. I have my reasons for this setup, and it works quite well for me.
So, back on track. I do like many of routing techniques that "small-bore" tubing brings to the table. I intensely do not like the cost of AC stuff, so I do not even consider AC. $560 for a rad?! I don't care how many bells and whistles it has. But then, who cares. To each their own.
So back to my original question: Who else makes "low-flow" components? And why do the "low-flow" people only see AC as the "low-flow" soluition?
Edit: FWIW, AC does make some VERY nice looking equipment. I doubt anyone would argue that. I just do not like the associated cost.
More modern blocks nowadays use separate internal accelerator plates or nozzles, so rather than paying the restriction penalty of small bore tubing for an entire system, the restriction is localised to where it is needed. With that development, it is always the case that larger bore tubing will offer less restriction, and by nature, higher flow rates for the same amount of pumping effort.
She just seems utterly incapable of divorcing the issue of tubing size from the water-blocks from some particular manufacturer, attempting to turn analysis of the effects of tubing size into some pro-AC rant.
Larger tubing will offer less restriction, and therefore more flow, on ALL blocks. Given the same pumping power, and hence heat-dump, it has been proven again, and again, and again, and again, that given the same heat dump into a loop that more flow equates to better performance from all water-blocks and all radiators.
Changing the pump + tubing, is not the same issue as this thread, which is choosing to fix the pump and the waterblock, and just analyse the effects of changing the tubing + fittings.
I simply fail to understand why the simplicity of this analytical approach is so hard to grasp for some. Quite amazingly, I somewhat expected more fallout from the large-bore grognards, but aside from one or two hecklers who quickly grasped the issue with some friendly hand-holding, I find myself being attacked by those who should find comfort in such analysis. I can only presume such people must be somehow mentally challenged.
I agree, but there were some designs, like the Evo, that didn't work well with higher flowing pumps. They worked better with the pumps like the Eheim 1046 and its variants.
the "authority" that you are questioning is not some noob...
I think it is more or less a lack of well deserved respect that TN is lacking for all of your efforts in the watercooling world. And maybe by then you have matured enough to grasp what all cathar has accomplished in the watercooling world.
You just seem to be argumentative about anything...
the difference between you and cathar when it comes to watercooling is a little bit lopsided..questioning a persons authority is sometimes healthy...but you are not questioning a dummy either...until you design something and have it bought by a major company...you are just like the rest of us....
See, it is this point where you're on the wrong tangent.
All blocks improve their performance with higher water flow rate.
I'd be truly interested in knowing what led you to believe that blocks can perform worse with more flow. This has never been found to be the case in any review I've seen of any waterblock, no matter its "flow persuasion", or country of origin.
As for challenged nurses, one of the ones that I had on my recent trip to the hospital was a shocker. This was a person who struggled to apply hair removal product according to the directions on the bottle in preparation for surgery. She was so inept that I had to do it myself after the second failed attempt. Just before she tried to take my pulse from my shattered wrist by pushing down right on where the break was. She also took it upon herself to remove all of my painkillers that the doctor had prescribed, and despite my increasing complaints of being in pain, it wasn't until a shift-change that I got some relief. The rest of the nurses were fine.
See, to me, being a nurse is no guarantee.
Ahh, my good mate, the mindless troll known as migueld.
A quick perusal of the pressure-drop characteristics of the two popular blocks will find that they are still around 5-10x as restrictive as the popular blocks of 5 years back (Maze 3/4). Only the truly retarded troll would not check their facts before posting. So much for that point.
There are more blocks around in the last two years, than 5-6 years ago, that use accelerator plates. True or false? The temporary ascendance of any one design primarily based upon its ability to be warped to perform on a flawed socket mounting system is not a design aspect to uphold. The Fuzion, with nozzles, outperforms the Apogee as demonstrated by the more switched on members, yet has an higher pressure drop. As a result of the feedback, the Fuzion will be receiving nozzles in case you weren't aware of the developments.
Cathar, I honestly expected more from you, the name-calling and insulting is really childish and cheap. This seems to be a recent trend, I've been reading some of your posts which are richly dressed in "elite" wording but seems deceitful. If I were you I'd watch out; people eventually will start jumping at that kind of misinformation.
I have a question(s): Whenever "low-flow" is mentioned, it becomes associated with "small-bore"/Aqua Computer. Why? Is AC the only "low-flow" manufacturer out there? Who else makes "low-flow" components?
So back to my original question: Who else makes "low-flow" components? And why do the "low-flow" people only see AC as the "low-flow" solution?
I think it became associated with AC because others and I were quite vocal about it that used AC components. The others didn't and so there was no connection. In actuality AC stuff isn't really low flow per se, but others perceive it as such. I think AC is more connected with the small bore tubing than anything else. It also is one of the more popular discussion topics on this forum either flaming them or praising them.
In actuality there are lots of low-flow manufacturers, but most people flame them even more than AC due to their less than stellar quality. You see them all the time here on the forum. Just check out the wc threads where someone asks someone if so and so's kit is any good. You will catch on fast about who I'm talking about.
AC and most EURO companies like to use smaller tubing. Not until the last year have they realized they can combine a high end pump with their equipment and achieve incredible results
How is it cheap when even XS regards you as a low flow troll? You were our forum's Top Nurse before TN made her brief visit over on XS while [H] was down.
The only misinformation being spread is the stuff coming from the 'low flow is best flow/ Pro-AC' crowd.
The maze 3 is not even half less restrictive, if that much, than the Apogee classic (which has about the same pressure drop than the newer GT and GTX and similar to the Fuzion), if that much. Where the hell is your 5-10 times figure? What's your next excuse? You were trolling? I guess so, by your definition you must be a troll.
Swiftech's deviation from Storm and dedication to Apogee makes it clear that they are after non-restrictive designs.
In retrospective tubing size never really mattered. Quantifying the significance of flow in itself is difficult, will more flow give you better cooling? By how much, 5c? Will a DDC 18W give you 5c better than a 10w? Personally I don't see any difference. Whenever we get realistic we see that some factors are really irrelevant to the overall picture. Tubing size is one of them.
Personally I think you were wrong in advocating large bore tubing back then. Regardless of the components, the differences between 3/8" vs 1/2" in a w/c loop is insignificant. People back then did not report 5c differences. Many people reported no differences. The 1c difference is debatable. You mentioned that back then people saw 1C difference and it mattered. Your latest analysis suggests that the same holds for today's components. So the components have changed over the years, but the consensus remains: tubing size doesn't matter.
The analysis 3-5 years or so ago was flawed. The Germans were right all along. But that's fine, we learned from it. Hey, as long as we remain open-minded.
My father (a physician) sees it all the time at the hospital: rogue nurses who think they know better and will find every recourse to prove their intuitions are right at the patient's expense no matter what the doctor has prescribed/ordered.
Yea I wonder about that. It may be because AC is the weaker target, they got alu stuff so it's easier to antagonize. Alphacool is an excellent company that uses small bore tubing as well, yet I don't hear much bashing, I wonder why?
I started this thread to destroy old myths. Imagine my surprise when I find people attacking me for trying to destroy the myths that caused them so much grief.
See, it is this point where you're on the wrong tangent.
All blocks improve their performance with higher water flow rate.
I'd be truly interested in knowing what led you to believe that blocks can perform worse with more flow. This has never been found to be the case in any review I've seen of any waterblock, no matter its "flow persuasion", or country of origin.
As for challenged nurses, one of the ones that I had on my recent trip to the hospital was a shocker. This was a person who struggled to apply hair removal product according to the directions on the bottle in preparation for surgery. She was so inept that I had to do it myself after the second failed attempt. Just before she tried to take my pulse from my shattered wrist by pushing down right on where the break was. She also took it upon herself to remove all of my painkillers that the doctor had prescribed, and despite my increasing complaints of being in pain, it wasn't until a shift-change that I got some relief. The rest of the nurses were fine.
See, to me, being a nurse is no guarantee.
No matter how well you explain yourself, no matter the visible proof, the pro-AC crowd will find a way to claim that AC is king, low flow is best, and that they were right all along.
My father (a physician) sees it all the time at the hospital: rogue nurses who think they know better and will find every recourse to prove their intuitions are right at the patient's expense no matter what the doctor has prescribed/ordered.
How is it cheap when even XS regards you as a low flow troll? You were our forum's Top Nurse before TN made her brief visit over on XS while [H] was down.
The only misinformation being spread is the stuff coming from the 'low flow is best flow/ Pro-AC' crowd.