Theatron DTS (with C-Media 8788) - Lots of pictures (56k beware)

well, there aren't that many 192/24 sources out there, right? :p If that's the only difference -not having the 192/24 DAC- I think I'll keep the Theatron DTS. Besides, I think my receiver does not support 192/24 anyway...

those Belkin cables are cheap. I might get them and give them a try because I'm really disappointed with the 96/24 digital output. It sounds muddy as hell.


the receiver is about 2ft away from the computer, so that shouldn't be a problem.

yep, I know DVD-A discs usually come with DTS or DD tracks in the VIDEO_TS folder, but I was obviously talking about the AUDIO_TS folder, which I have successfully decrypted and copied to my hard-drive.
 
In digital connection, I don't think that there would be any difference between all CMI8788 cards. In analogue, this is the cheapest CMI8788 card, it doesn't have 192/24 DACs like other CMI8788 cards, I also don't think that the OPAMPs on this card are at the same quality as on the b-Enspirer/X-Meridian and the circuit board/components are about the same as the b-Enspirer. I think it is safe to say the X-Meridian's sound is better but I don't know whether the X-Meridian is $100 better or not.
 
ok. Well analogue sound needs to be better then the X-Fi by a considerate margain to be worth it :).

Dolby headphone and such features you get with all soundcards using this chip?

Must say this is a jungle for me how is it with drivers? Any brand using this chip that generally has better drivers then other?
 
Yes all features are the same. I still haven't heard any driver issue from X-Meridian's owners, some problems on Newegg about b-Enspirer's driver. A company with a better driver, I don't think so but a better looking driver, the Barracuda. Personally for musics, I would rather pay $200 for my X-Meridian than the X-Fi, really can't compare them.
 
cirerita said:
well, there aren't that many 192/24 sources out there, right? :p If that's the only difference -not having the 192/24 DAC- I think I'll keep the Theatron DTS. Besides, I think my receiver does not support 192/24 anyway...

those Belkin cables are cheap. I might get them and give them a try because I'm really disappointed with the 96/24 digital output. It sounds muddy as hell.

the receiver is about 2ft away from the computer, so that shouldn't be a problem.

yep, I know DVD-A discs usually come with DTS or DD tracks in the VIDEO_TS folder, but I was obviously talking about the AUDIO_TS folder, which I have successfully decrypted and copied to my hard-drive.
Click to expand...

First, if you use those cables, you're depending on the X-Fi DACs. Though they're NOT the best, they are damned good. You run three of those cables;
First Cable is Front left and right
Second Cable is Rear left and right.
Third cable is Center and Sub

Only 2ft is easy:) With these, you get the Full Processed sound from your sound card. ZERO Compression and ZERO loss. Your AMP and Speakers become the limiting factor unless you have some ungodly high end stuff. I have some Infinitys on the front and some older Bose 301''s for the Rear, Sony Center and Custom Sub. I had to remove a larger sub from my computer room because it was shaking stuff loose in my computer (already on the other side and on cushions) and driving my wife nutz.

The Alternate tracks are there but you need a DVD-A Player to read them. Again the limits on recording are due to the Wofson ADC on the X-Fi. The Max they can do is 24/96 2 or Multi-Channel. The DSP can do it but the ADC can't. I have RAW 24-96 Wave files as well. I'd love to record a 192KHz stereo source:)

The X-Fi might be an EMU 1212 or etc.. But same same Wolfon ADC can give it a run for the money in Audio Creation mode. Sent a bud some Analog ASIO 2/Real Time 24/96 5.1 and 24/96 Stereo. Again, I prefer Stereo. Surround sound is Cool but stereo is where it's at.

Sorry for the long post!
 
Donnie27 said:
Again, I prefer Stereo. Surround sound is Cool but stereo is where it's at.
Click to expand...
You do a little composition, right? If you get the opportunity, try to do some 5.1 mixing. It's an unimaginable freedom and a delight.

The music really doesn't benefit, but damn it's fun to mix it.
 
Hey, I don't have an X-fi, but a Theatron DTS... anyway, I guess the analogue cables configuration is about the same. Luckily, I had a few of those computer soundcard --> receiver cables lying around and I'll try them later on.

My receiver only supports 96/24, so it won't make much sense to spend an extra $100 to get a 192/24 capable soundcard as the X-Meridian or Barracuda AC-1.

as to the drivers, not a single problem here -other than the cmedia webpage seems not to work, but I could get them from the Club3D page. I wonder whether the X-Meridian or Barracuda drivers are compatible or not with my card. The Theatron DTS Control Panel is not that bad, but you have to manually switch from one mode to other and maybe the other sound card control panels are better somehow.

funnily enough, in the included manuals, one of them is for the Inferno. Yes, you read that right. You buy the Theatron DTS and one of the manuals says "Inferno". They must be very similar :D
 
cirerita said:
Hey, I don't have an X-fi, but a Theatron DTS... anyway, I guess the analogue cables configuration is about the same. Luckily, I had a few of those computer soundcard --> receiver cables lying around and I'll try them later on.

My receiver only supports 96/24, so it won't make much sense to spend an extra $100 to get a 192/24 capable soundcard as the X-Meridian or Barracuda AC-1.

as to the drivers, not a single problem here -other than the cmedia webpage seems not to work, but I could get them from the Club3D page. I wonder whether the X-Meridian or Barracuda drivers are compatible or not with my card. The Theatron DTS Control Panel is not that bad, but you have to manually switch from one mode to other and maybe the other sound card control panels are better somehow.

funnily enough, in the included manuals, one of them is for the Inferno. Yes, you read that right. You buy the Theatron DTS and one of the manuals says "Inferno". They must be very similar :D
Click to expand...
You don't need a receiver that can support 192/24 if you are using analogue, the sound will just be amplified by the receiver. The digital PCM is already converted to analogue by the DAC on the card. If you are using SPDIF, the digital PCM is converted by the DAC on your receiver, which I think should be better than the cheap Theatron. Have you ever think about why the theatron is cheap compared to other cards?
 
...and when all else fails got to Wal-Mart and buy a $50 DVD player with Digital outputs. :D
BTW I have a 15-20 ft RCA Cables going from my Compy to my Stereo and I don't have any trouble with signal loss.
 
phide said:
You do a little composition, right? If you get the opportunity, try to do some 5.1 mixing. It's an unimaginable freedom and a delight.

The music really doesn't benefit, but damn it's fun to mix it.
Click to expand...

I've been playing around with it and yes, I'd love to do more. I've got tons to learn.

I'm use to hearing Music from in the audience. Sure I've sat in with a local band and played Bass but I like the stage in front of me better. The higher the sample rate, the truer the curve (wave length).

I want clean flat but strong signal from my Sound Card and make the adjustments with the Pre-Amp/Amp/s or receiver.

Off topic again, but I heard a live 5.1 recording where the front 3 Channels are of the band and the rear two are the croud. Simply amazing. In the croud you and her some chick say "My goodness, I'd love to @%$# his brains out". as they cheered on the lead Singer. Sadly he's gay LOL!
 
cirerita said:
Hey, I don't have an X-fi, but a Theatron DTS... anyway, I guess the analogue cables configuration is about the same. Luckily, I had a few of those computer soundcard --> receiver cables lying around and I'll try them later on.

My receiver only supports 96/24, so it won't make much sense to spend an extra $100 to get a 192/24 capable soundcard as the X-Meridian or Barracuda AC-1.

as to the drivers, not a single problem here -other than the cmedia webpage seems not to work, but I could get them from the Club3D page. I wonder whether the X-Meridian or Barracuda drivers are compatible or not with my card. The Theatron DTS Control Panel is not that bad, but you have to manually switch from one mode to other and maybe the other sound card control panels are better somehow.

funnily enough, in the included manuals, one of them is for the Inferno. Yes, you read that right. You buy the Theatron DTS and one of the manuals says "Inferno". They must be very similar :D
Click to expand...

Sorry I'm mixing up my X-Fi with your card, MY BAD. Use the cables the same way. Your card will do the 24/96 conversion and your receiver will merely Amplify Analog signals sent to it by the sound card.
 
more info.
The b_enspirer drivers are the same as the Theatron ones, just updated. The Theatron are 5.12.01.008.17.1 and the b_Enspirer 5.12.01.008.17.8. Same control panel.

The X-Meridian ones are same version as the b_Enspirer (xxx.17.8), and I guess it's the same control panel (can you confirm this?). By the way, has anyone managed to use the Media Rack program? Is it any good?

The Barracuda AC-1 has the same drivers, but a different control panel. I think it's more game-oriented, I don't like it.
snap001.png
 
If you look at my X-Meridian thread, there are links to see the cards' circuit board. You can see the components of the cards and I think you could make a rough comparison between them. I don't know whether Razer's EMI shield really works or not. One thing I don't like about Razer's card is that, it uses something like a DVI connector and you need to use an adaptor for outputs(you get them with the card) and the adaptor doesn't look like it has a high quality. The Razer's control panel has the same features as other CMI8788 cards. They give a program to give the control panel a skin in order to make it looks better. The program uses jpeg files as a skin and you can use the program with other CMI8788 cards as well. I've tried the program before but I don't like the interface. You can edit the jpeg files to create your own skin.
 
The Barracuda ac-1 has a "SPDIF off" option -see pic in my previous post- which is nowhere to be seen in the standard cmedia control panel -the one which comes with Theatron DTS, b-Enspirer, Inferno and -I guess- X-Meridian...
 
Try pressing the - button next to the SPDIF output menu in Xear3D. The only thing the other cards doesn't have is HD-DAI(something to use with their headset) but after installing the program, pressing the HD-DAI button will show a hidden analogue output in Xear3D.
 
alg7_munif said:
DD/DTS has more than enough bandwidth to send a stereo 16/48 sound without compression so I don't think compression is needed. X-Fi also resample to 48kHz unless it is in audio creation mode.
Click to expand...

No(1. Dolby Digital Live), no(2. DTSi ) and no (X-FI).

Sterero PCM (16Bit 48kHz) needs 1,5kbps.
Dolby Digital reachs a max Bit rate of 640kbps (CMedia DDL Encoder onyl 448kbps)
DTS used a max Bit rate of 1,5kbps, but with format overhead.

However both formats cannot transfer lossless. The transmission is ever more worse than 16Bit/48kHz PCM.

Additionally is "Dolby Digital Live" not "Dolby Digital" and "DTS interactive" not DTS.
Both formats have additional restrictions (performance optimized). Still more restrictions than the full formats.

For example DDL uses a 17+ kHz very sharp roll-off. Frequencies over 17Khz are deleted.
"The reason was to limit the complexity of the encoding such that quality below that level would not be sacrificed. To put it another way, better quality from 20 Hz to 17+ kHz was a better way to go then 20 Hz to 20 kHz with far more compression. " 3dsoundsurge



And at last.

The X-Fi DSP (EMU20k1) process native 32Bit/192kHz effects. It is not fixed on 24Bit/48kHz resampling, like the EMU10k1/2(up to Audigy 2 Value).
 
MixBar said:
And at last.

The X-Fi DSP (EMU20k1) process native 32Bit/192kHz effects. It is not fixed on 24Bit/48kHz resampling, like the EMU10k1/2(up to Audigy 2 Value).
Click to expand...
According to this, the X-Fi's DSP can also work with 44.1KHz but only in creation mode. It is still locked at 48kHz, it does resample and I didn't say the resampling is bad but it still does resample.
The X-Fi's core can run at two internal sampling rates, 44.1 KHz and 48 KHz, although it will only run at 44.1KHz in Creation mode, and if you specifically tell it to do so
Click to expand...
 
alg7_munif said:
According to this, the X-Fi's DSP can also work with 44.1KHz but only in creation mode. It is still locked at 48kHz, it does resample and I didn't say the resampling is bad but it still does resample.
Click to expand...

:confused:
Your statement is not located in the extremetech link!
by the way, it's wrong. The EMU20k1 process up to 32Bit/192kHz effects native. This is a fact. Look in the EMU20k1 specs.

It concerns in the extremetech article exclusive the comparison 44,1kHz between 48kHz (The most difficult resampling challenge). Nothing X-Fi in general.
 
Read the article again, you will see that the effects are done at 48kHz or what they call band splitting for 96kHz. Believe what you want because not only me who said that the card resamples.
 
alg7_munif said:
Read the article again, you will see that the effects are done at 48kHz or what they call band splitting for 96kHz.
Click to expand...

Jep. But extremtech does not understand the EMU20k1.
This DSP used 4096 channels. Each channel has the bandwith of 32Bit 48kHz. This is a internal process and not a output thing. The EMU20k1 can naturally handle full 192kHz (channel bundling, 4 internal channels) Samples with full featureset.

look first in the vendor specs

http://www.soundblaster.com/products/x-fi/technology/architecture/specs.asp

then look in good reviews.

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/multimedia/creative-x-fi.html
 
That's why they need a powerful built in SRC. Still resample IMO but didn't say it is bad.

Edit: Don't give me a Creative's website as your source, how about I give you this, you can get a better sound than the studio with X-Fi?
Another bad review about the chip, so if a review said something right but you don't want to hear it, it is a bad review?
 
Nope. A resampler is the condition for dynamic soundprocessing. (on the CMedia cards resamples the CPU based kernel mixer.)

only, the 44.1kHz to 48kHz resampling is one of the most difficult tasks.

We can compare the resampling results of the CMedia CMI8788 based systems, with the X-fi. The X-Fi is much better in quality (with much smaller CPU load).
 
alg7_munif said:
Edit: Don't give me a Creative's website as your source, how about I give you
Click to expand...

You will find manufacturer data only on manufacturer sides and my second link is not a creative tech site.
 
alg7_munif said:
The result is a better sound from my X-Meridian than my X-Fi???
Click to expand...


On Logitech Value speakers? :cool:

The signal quality of the X-fi is better (on Elite Pro much better).
Why do you think that the X-Meridian sounds better? The output level of the X-Meridian is higher. The output is louder.
 
MixBar said:
On Logitech Value speakers? :cool:

The signal quality of the X-fi is better (on Elite Pro much better).
Why do you think that the X-Meridian have better sound? The output level of the X-Meridian is higher. The output is louder.
Click to expand...
Nope on my Logitech speaker the X-Meridian is slightly better than my XtremeMusic but on my HD-595, X-Fi sounds cheap compared to my X-Meridian, the X-Meridian kick a$$. Btw my Logitech speaker with DTS compression is a little better than X-Fi analogue output but the X-Meridian output is still the best.
 
alg7_munif said:
The result is a better sound from my X-Meridian than my X-Fi???
Click to expand...

Starting from Audigy2, designers introduced the P16V unit into their processor, which allowed cards to play back DVD-Audio (96 and 192 kHz). But this mode was available only for those frequencies and only via DirectSound interface. The effect-processor operating at 48 kHz must be disabled in this case. Otherwise, resampling will intervene again.
Click to expand...

That's the chip/section I mentioned on the other thread.

Another link.

This has been a very informative week, thank all of you guys very much for your time and no flames:) It's like almost every one here thinks it's more important to get to the bottom of something rather than win a fight or etc...
 
alg7_munif said:
N but on my HD-595, X-Fi sounds cheap compared to my X-Meridian, the X-Meridian kick a$$.
Click to expand...

A headphone is a passiv component. Your X-Meridian has an headphone amplifier. Your X-Fi Xtreme Music has none (This card can only maximal drive(not so well) headphones with extreme lower impedance (CT HP with 20-30Ohm impedance).
The Elite Pro has an headphone amplifier.
 
I'm not talking about loudness but the range on my X-Meridian is better, X-Fi does sound good, strong bass and treble but at some range the X-Meridian is much better, like the sound from a guitar is more tempting on the X-Meridian.
 
alg7_munif said:
I'm not talking about loudness but the range on my X-Meridian is better, X-Fi does sound good, strong bass and treble but at some range the X-Meridian is much better, like the sound from a guitar is more tempting on the X-Meridian.
Click to expand...


The headphone amplifier does not only effect on the volume. It affects substantial the sound. Higher possible volumes and greater audio clarity. Into russian I could explain it to you (sorry).. But the headphone is a passiv component, that need an adapted driver amplifier. This is not comparably with the output for an active soundset. (or headphone with own amplifier)

The X-Fi Xtreme Music needs a external Headphone amplifier.
As I already wrote. The elite pro has an hp amplifier.
 
alg7_munif said:
People are getting "great sound" from X-Fi with their headphones.
Click to expand...

This is massiv dependently on the used headphone. Badly comparably. The signal quality of the output for active component (wireless headphones, soundsets, receivers, etc.) is simply measurably, because the output operates without electrical consumption.

The output for dynamic passive component is much more complex and a big thing of subjectivity.
 
Btw if headphones is the main purpose, an external DAC with an amp on an AV-710(not a powerful sound chip) is better than Elite Pro. With my X-Meridian, I can play games at 128 voices without crawling fps, I can drive my headphones without an amp, I can connect it to a HT receiver with DD/DTS encoding, I can record sound at 192kHz and add effects to it. Can a similiarly priced(not a heavily discounted) X-Fi do the same?
 
You're preaching to the choir here. The X-Meridian has a feature list just as the X-Fi has a feature list. I see no reason to debate these plain facts, nor to assume that some features are greater than others for everybody.

Yet another thread turned X-Meridian vs. X-Fi by the typical key players, unfortunately.

MixBar said:
For example DDL uses a 17+ kHz very sharp roll-off. Frequencies over 17Khz are deleted.
Click to expand...
What about so-called subsonic rejection? It's been my experience that dropping sub-20Hz content can have extremely positive benefits on headroom, and would assume that would also increase compression ratios. Is this already a feature of full-format DD/DTS?
 
phide said:
Yet another thread turned X-Meridian vs. X-Fi by the typical key players, unfortunately.
Click to expand...
Lol sorry, it started out with a resample issue which I never said a bad one and it doesn't even matter for most of the users. He started it :p :
MixBar said:
We can compare the resampling results of the CMedia CMI8788 based systems, with the X-fi. The X-Fi is much better in quality (with much smaller CPU load).
Click to expand...
 
alg7_munif said:
Btw if headphones is the main purpose, an external DAC with an amp on an AV-710(not a powerful sound chip) is better than Elite Pro.
Click to expand...

An external DAC? This is a wide spectrum in price and quality.
The Elite Pro is high end.
A better external DAC is correctly expensive.

With my X-Meridian, I can play games at 128 voices without crawling fps, I can drive my headphones without an amp, I can connect it to a HT receiver with DD/DTS encoding, I can record sound at 192kHz and add effects to it. Can a similiarly priced(not a heavily discounted) X-Fi do the same?
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:
192kHz records with a ugly signal quality and insufficient effects.
The X-Meridian is not a good analogue soundcard and not a effective effect or recording card.

No. The X-Fi can do more, many more.

The large advantage(if uses) of the CMI8788 are the real time encoding software, but for this you don't need a X-Meridian. A 57€ Club3D THDTS does exactly the same.
 
phide said:
What about so-called subsonic rejection? It's been my experience that dropping sub-20Hz content can have extremely positive benefits on headroom, and would assume that would also increase compression ratios. Is this already a feature of full-format DD/DTS?
Click to expand...

Nope. Dolby Digital and DTS are for sound transportation and not for "sound improvement". Both formats can replay more than 17kHz.
 
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