Verizon Seeks Injunctions Against Strikers

Emission said:
Not gonna lie, I also want to be there to see that.

People seem to forget the reason we created unions in the first place, and how awfully easy it is to forget when its convenient to do so.
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but seems more lately you see Unions doing things they shouldnt always.

My uncle worked for the city of Toronto, they decided to go on strike, he wanted to work but would be punished if he did along with a good group of his co-workers, instead he could make $100 a week if he was protesting for i think at least 3 hours a day 4 days of the week?

meanwhile the heads of the unions were still getting their fat pay checks sitting on their asses and going in to do negotiations when they felt like i and denying everything, in the end they got next to nothing but many people were broke and now had over due bills and other things.

i think more today since laws are much different than when Unions were created things need a MAJOR overhaul.
 
Here's a question --- hypothetical:

I'm Mr. Unemployed and would LOVE to have a job... All of a sudden Verizon has 45,000 "vacant" positions. Can I apply for one? Nope, because they're union jobs. Guess what? Me and 44,999 others remain unemployed while you stupidass union jackoffs strike.
 
Cali3350 said:
For a completely unskilled job? Ofcourse.
What is this thinking that people should keep getting raises for a job irregardless of the actual work they perform. I dont get it.
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If you don't consider an electrician a skilled worker what meets your criteria?
 
SunnyD said:
Here's a question --- hypothetical:

I'm Mr. Unemployed and would LOVE to have a job... All of a sudden Verizon has 45,000 "vacant" positions. Can I apply for one? Nope, because they're union jobs. Guess what? Me and 44,999 others remain unemployed while you stupidass union jackoffs strike.
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hypothetical: Why are you unemployed Mr. Unemployed? I mean if you're gonna tell a sob story you should tell me the part where I should feel worse for you or the guy on strike because he's losing his health benefits.
 
piscian18 said:
hypothetical: Why are you unemployed Mr. Unemployed? I mean if you're gonna tell a sob story you should tell me the part where I should feel worse for you or the guy on strike because he's losing his health benefits.
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Does it matter? Assume by the mere presumption that I'm actively seeking a position, I'm not a slacker if you really need to.

The point is that these asshats HAVE jobs, but apparently that's not good enough for them. Meanwhile, millions of people are without work, getting their houses foreclosed, unable to feed their families, etc., all the while vacant positions they can/would be most grateful to have they are completely locked out of because of a union.

(Assume that in this situation these individuals are more than qualified for the position - I suppose we should get that out of the way first.)
 
SunnyD said:
Does it matter? Assume by the mere presumption that I'm actively seeking a position, I'm not a slacker if you really need to.

The point is that these asshats HAVE jobs, but apparently that's not good enough for them. Meanwhile, millions of people are without work, getting their houses foreclosed, unable to feed their families, etc., all the while vacant positions they can/would be most grateful to have they are completely locked out of because of a union.

(Assume that in this situation these individuals are more than qualified for the position - I suppose we should get that out of the way first.)
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hmm. I'm trying to care here. So you aren't unemployed because a company with no one regulating their business practices laid you off to meet quarterly stock value goals. You weren't fired for being a shitty employee. Why should I care? This union guy is striking because verizon is cutting back on employee benefits because Cigars don't light themselves you know.

So please tell mr. unemployed for no particular reason he might wanna lower his standards because he's not giving me any reason to hate the union guy.
 
piscian18 said:
hmm. I'm trying to care here. So you aren't unemployed because a company with no one regulating their business practices laid you off to meet quarterly stock value goals. You weren't fired for being a shitty employee. Why should I care? This union guy is striking because verizon is cutting back on employee benefits because Cigars don't light themselves you know.

So please tell mr. unemployed for no particular reason he might wanna lower his standards because he's not giving me any reason to hate the union guy.
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You want Mr. Unemployed to lower his standards from essentially nothing (to what? even less than nothing?), and yet you don't expect Mr. Union guy to lower HIS standards just to KEEP his job that he already has? Hypocracy at its finest.

Please, tell me, why should I care if these union retards end up fired unemployed? Oh wait, that's right, they CAN'T. Keep in mind, Mr. Unemployed in this scenario doesn't even HAVE employee benefits at this point, while the picketing union asshat is still getting a check at the end of the week (granted, strike pay is far less than their salary, but still, they're getting a check AND in the end will still have a job no matter what).

The principle of unions sound great on paper, but in practice, they're mostly scams. I'll be happy to agree that the principle of capitalist economies sound great on paper too... but the same argument applies (and it's why we are where we are with the current economic climate).
 
SunnyD said:
You want Mr. Unemployed to lower his standards from essentially nothing (to what? even less than nothing?), and yet you don't expect Mr. Union guy to lower HIS standards just to KEEP his job that he already has? Hypocracy at its finest.
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All while Mr. CEO takes home a fatter and fatter check by increasing prices, decreasing service and cutting pay for employees. Greed at its finest.
 
heatlesssun said:
All while Mr. CEO takes home a fatter and fatter check by increasing prices, decreasing service and cutting pay for employees. Greed at its finest.
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Typical, so because one person has it better then you all you can come up with is to try and bring him down. He does not get what he is getting because he demanded it the shareholders give it to him. All of the 45k verizon workers are shareholders and I know they all did not vote against his salary.

Verizon has to make decisions now for the future of the business especially when the union wants a 3-5 year contract that cannot be changed. The automakers made that mistake and almost went under because of it. Verizon is a profitable company and is trying to put into place policies that will allow it to remain profitable.

If the union workers think they can get better somewhere else let them leave.
 
SunnyD said:
You want Mr. Unemployed to lower his standards from essentially nothing (to what? even less than nothing?), and yet you don't expect Mr. Union guy to lower HIS standards just to KEEP his job that he already has? Hypocracy at its finest.

Please, tell me, why should I care if these union retards end up fired unemployed? Oh wait, that's right, they CAN'T. Keep in mind, Mr. Unemployed in this scenario doesn't even HAVE employee benefits at this point, while the picketing union asshat is still getting a check at the end of the week (granted, strike pay is far less than their salary, but still, they're getting a check AND in the end will still have a job no matter what).

The principle of unions sound great on paper, but in practice, they're mostly scams. I'll be happy to agree that the principle of capitalist economies sound great on paper too... but the same argument applies (and it's why we are where we are with the current economic climate).
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your logic doesn't make sense here, no I didn't saying anything about the non-union guy lowering his standards to nothing.

The Union guy is on strike because he's losing his benefits. You want him to be fired so random unemployed guy can have his job, but you're not really providing any justification except to say the unemployed guy is overqualified for that job which if he's is then he's doing something wrong. Worse this isn't about more money. So even if Verizon manages to rid of these 45000 people and replace them with more needy people you've just succeeded in creating a trend of less benefits in the market. Now they know they can get away with this they can keep going. At my work they use Cigna Health insurance which is one of the worst in the US. It's actually difficult to find a doctor who will except it. Each year for the last 3 they perpetually lowered my benefits and raised my fees and co-pays. If I complain which a lot of us have they say "fuck you". It's also an unspoken rule that if you mention Union at work it's a fire-able offense(OMFG why could that be?). I get that the rest of us are getting dicked around and you're looking around for a scapegoat, but you can't expect people to just get mad at somebody else whos actually got a weapon to find a corrupt and evil workplace rather than just sit on their ass and take it.
 
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/08/08/both-sides-could-lose-in-verizon-strikes/

I thought this was a very well written opinion on this matter. I work in a union on a smaller level and have done so for the past 12 years. I also live on Long Island and use Verizon FiOS myself.

I've listened to this whole thread and its true what they say about this topic; discussions about employer/employee contracts with unions are a touchy, complex issue.

I don't even think I can fully give my opinion without it being so long that most here would probably take one look at it and move on ;)

What's your reaction to the article?
 
fairlane said:
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/08/08/both-sides-could-lose-in-verizon-strikes/

I thought this was a very well written opinion on this matter. I work in a union on a smaller level and have done so for the past 12 years. I also live on Long Island and use Verizon FiOS myself.

I've listened to this whole thread and its true what they say about this topic; discussions about employer/employee contracts with unions are a touchy, complex issue.

I don't even think I can fully give my opinion without it being so long that most here would probably take one look at it and move on ;)

What's your reaction to the article?
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Sounds very similar to what happened to the paper mills in Maine. Old technology in decline, profits drop, union refuses pay cut, profits keep dropping until the mill is operating at a loss, bank takes over mill property and everyone loses their job.

Wait until they get to the part where they find out selling all Verizon's land lines wont cover 1/8th of their pension.
 
wizdum said:
Sounds very similar to what happened to the paper mills in Maine. Old technology in decline, profits drop, union refuses pay cut, profits keep dropping until the mill is operating at a loss, bank takes over mill property and everyone loses their job.

Wait until they get to the part where they find out selling all Verizon's land lines wont cover 1/8th of their pension.
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Yeah, but Verizon as a company will never get there. The company will get bigger, charge customers more for less, give big payouts out the top, put cheap labor in their growing business and put the unions out. The rich will just get richer and richer and average working people will get stuck with low paying, low benefit jobs, and higher prices as profits grow beyond imagination.
 
marshalllaw said:
Your wrong, if a CEO fails to do his job and have the company be profitable and growing then he will be out of a job. The shareholders will see to that.
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marshalllaw said:
Typical, so because one person has it better then you all you can come up with is to try and bring him down. He does not get what he is getting because he demanded it the shareholders give it to him. All of the 45k verizon workers are shareholders and I know they all did not vote against his salary.
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Whoever told you these things, or wherever you read them, I hope you start to be more skeptical of any other "facts" they try and convince you into believing.
 
marshalllaw said:
Your wrong, if a CEO fails to do his job and have the company be profitable and growing then he will be out of a job. The shareholders will see to that.
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While I understand the truth of what you say, I find it difficult to give a shit if a guy that made $17 million last year got bumped.
 
marshalllaw said:
Your wrong, if a CEO fails to do his job and have the company be profitable and growing then he will be out of a job. The shareholders will see to that.
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"Oh fizzlesticks they fired me! Now all I have are my millions and millions of dollars which will allow me to live comfortably and be free of financial insecurity for the remainder of my life."
 
marshalllaw said:
Typical, so because one person has it better then you all you can come up with is to try and bring him down.
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I'm not trying to bring anyone down. The wealthy are going a much better job at that than me. And I don't so much mean that in a personal sense it's just that wealth CONTINUES to accumulate at the top as a percentage of total wealth, the wealthy are simply making their profits and paying worker less as a proportion. Is that because the wealthy are so great and everyone else is lazy?
 
piscian18 said:
your logic doesn't make sense here, no I didn't saying anything about the non-union guy lowering his standards to nothing.
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Yes, you very much did:

piscian18 said:
So please tell mr. unemployed for no particular reason he might wanna lower his standards because he's not giving me any reason to hate the union guy.
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piscian18 said:
The Union guy is on strike because he's losing his benefits. You want him to be fired so random unemployed guy can have his job, but you're not really providing any justification except to say the unemployed guy is overqualified for that job which if he's is then he's doing something wrong. Worse this isn't about more money. So even if Verizon manages to rid of these 45000 people and replace them with more needy people you've just succeeded in creating a trend of less benefits in the market. Now they know they can get away with this they can keep going. At my work they use Cigna Health insurance which is one of the worst in the US. It's actually difficult to find a doctor who will except it. Each year for the last 3 they perpetually lowered my benefits and raised my fees and co-pays. If I complain which a lot of us have they say "fuck you". It's also an unspoken rule that if you mention Union at work it's a fire-able offense(OMFG why could that be?). I get that the rest of us are getting dicked around and you're looking around for a scapegoat, but you can't expect people to just get mad at somebody else whos actually got a weapon to find a corrupt and evil workplace rather than just sit on their ass and take it.
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All the while what unions have done over the last 100 years is create an overpaid lazy workforce that feels it is entitled to more and more.

Look around at the entire corporate industry as a whole. Health care costs are probably the number one growing employer cost, and oh gee... they're continually spiraling out of control. For a lot of employers, just to be able to pay their employee wages, something has got to give. Yeah, I feel for you, but these levels are unsustainable as a whole. As far as companies like Verizon making money hand-over-fist, yeah, god forbid something like health benefits cut into their bottom line. But as far as Mr. Union dude goes, he should be greatful to simply HAVE a job, because there's 3.9 million others that would give their left nut to be in Mr. Union dude's position.
 
SunnyD said:
All the while what unions have done over the last 100 years is create an overpaid lazy workforce that feels it is entitled to more and more.
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Yeah, they had nothing to do with decent or safer working conditions, consumer protections from unsafe products, getting paid in cash, none of that. They just stole from the man!
 
Rob94hawk said:
I was forced into a union. I chose my job because I wanted it and I've been there for over 2 decades, not because it had a union. Unlike probably you, I have years of college education and save lives for a living.

Ever do chest compressions or push epi on a newborn? Didn't think so.

Who's the troll now? Go crawl back under your bridge or back to the Walmart you work at.
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Looks like you talk out of your ass for a living too, right along with being full of yourself. I love the way you can assume the world when you know nothing about it.

My years of college are as good as anyone's - and I've saved quit a few lives over the years, both before and after I got out of the military.

The main point though ,is that our education level and job histories mean nothing to the thread......unless you were purposely trying to sound like a self-righteous asshat. You ranted a load of crap about unions that doesn't always fit the bill. Maybe if you had explained your view intelligently, you wouldn't have come off as such a dope. If you hate unions so bad, do something about it.

There are instances where the union is still needed, and plenty more where they aren't. The one I was in was well run - but had a good balance with the administration. Very few got away with anything they shouldn't have.

I have no remorse for any company whose union is full of "greedy, unappreciative thugs....Include uneducated workers who want continuous meritless raises and benefits". Their supervisory staff and administration must be full of similarly uneducated and cowardly people who cannot enforce policies and procedures........and whom also signed the contract they got stuck with. A union only has as much power as they are given by the entity they work for. If a company gave up the house, then they get to sleep in the bed they made.
 
SunnyD said:
All the while what unions have done over the last 100 years is create an overpaid lazy workforce that feels it is entitled to more and more.
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Uhh....NO. ((see below))
heatlesssun said:
Yeah, they had nothing to do with decent or safer working conditions, consumer protections from unsafe products, getting paid in cash, none of that. They just stole from the man!
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Union membership in the private sector has declined sometimes steadily, and sometimes sharply from around the mid 1950's when it was around 35%, to currently only about 7% of the workforce being unionized.

Your premise of unions being to blame doesn't wash. If it did, unions would be gaining along with the lazy workforce.

The problem is America has been greatly abundant, and people got used to it - making them Apathetic. They went right from there to depending on others to carry them through it. Now you get a portion of the workforce who feel entitled to anything they want, and if they don't get it, well the government will carry them - so who needs a work ethic?

Also interesting how about 36% of government workers are union members, which accounts for over half of all union workers in the U.S..........but even those numbers are declining.
 
Monkey34 said:
The problem is America has been greatly abundant, and people got used to it - making them Apathetic. They went right from there to depending on others to carry them through it. Now you get a portion of the workforce who feel entitled to anything they want, and if they don't get it, well the government will carry them - so who needs a work ethic?
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Which class of people specifically are you talking about? If it's the upper echelon, then I agree. If it's lower and middle class .... well that's just BS. Our productivity rates come close to 3rd world countries and beat every single developed country you could name. We beat France, UK, Switzerland, etc... if it's developed country we beat them hands down.

Our problem as a country is that we've quite frankly let ALL of the gains of the middle class be turned into BS marketing speak and at the same time we've let a large portion of assholes who would call their taint an elbow get away with believing that they are somehow working harder than their neighbor. They might be working smarter but if they live next door to you then they obviously aren't Donald Trump.

It's literally a situation of hate your neighbor and kiss your oppressor, in hopes that tomorrow the dingleberries of white collar thieves will one day become a full meal for one to eat at dinner. When tomorrow comes and you realize you still have a plate of sh$t, (and a lesser amount of it at that) well then it's time to get mad at your neighbor rather than your own blindness in realizing that the cock up your a$$ has nothing to do with the hobo down the street.
 
kac77 said:
It's literally a situation of hate your neighbor and kiss your oppressor, in hopes that tomorrow the dingleberries of white collar thieves will one day become a full meal for one to eat at dinner. When tomorrow comes and you realize you still have a plate of sh$t, (and a lesser amount of it at that) well then it's time to get mad at your neighbor rather than your own blindness in realizing that the cock up your a$$ has nothing to do with the hobo down the street.
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Good post and it really does point out a very disturbing problem in the world of capitalism these days, that of wealth distribution. Of course when ever someone talks about it you're a communist or a Marxist but the trends are simply too clear to ignore. The top of the economic ladder is simply holding onto a greater percentage of wealth. Are CEO's today that much more important and productive to a company today than they were 50 years ago? No, but on the other hand labor in a global economy can be had on the cheap and with technology human labor can increasingly be eliminated altogether.

I think we are simply in the age were capitalism has become so efficient that labor costs are shrinking rapidly in proportion to total wealth. Labor has been the primary means by which the middle class earns it's income and that's pretty much getting shot to hell in the developed world.

There will be increasing uneasiness in the developed world over this issue as it transcends politics. Tax and other incentives promoted by the right will fail to help much I believe as labor prices face tremendous downward pressure and companies routinely cut labor numbers and still become more productive. And of course with our current government budget issues there's no appetite for public money to stimulate employment.

It is a conundrum and what I fear is that the true nature of the modern economy and what we need to do to sustain a middle class just wouldn't be acceptable politically even if we could be honest about it.
 
kac77 said:
Our productivity rates come close to 3rd world countries and beat every single developed country you could name. We beat France, UK, Switzerland, etc... if it's developed country we beat them hands down.
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Alright what about Japan? Or are they 3rd world in your eyes? :rolleyes:
 
xDezor said:
Alright what about Japan? Or are they 3rd world in your eyes? :rolleyes:
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I think the US and Japan are pretty close these days, the Japanese used to be quite a bit more productive but I don't believe that's the case anymore.
 
Monkey34 said:
Looks like you talk out of your ass for a living too, right along with being full of yourself. I love the way you can assume the world when you know nothing about it.

My years of college are as good as anyone's - and I've saved quit a few lives over the years, both before and after I got out of the military.

The main point though ,is that our education level and job histories mean nothing to the thread......unless you were purposely trying to sound like a self-righteous asshat. You ranted a load of crap about unions that doesn't always fit the bill. Maybe if you had explained your view intelligently, you wouldn't have come off as such a dope. If you hate unions so bad, do something about it.

There are instances where the union is still needed, and plenty more where they aren't. The one I was in was well run - but had a good balance with the administration. Very few got away with anything they shouldn't have.

I have no remorse for any company whose union is full of "greedy, unappreciative thugs....Include uneducated workers who want continuous meritless raises and benefits". Their supervisory staff and administration must be full of similarly uneducated and cowardly people who cannot enforce policies and procedures........and whom also signed the contract they got stuck with. A union only has as much power as they are given by the entity they work for. If a company gave up the house, then they get to sleep in the bed they made.
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Yes I'm a dope. A dope that watches first hand how coworkers abuse sick time to the fullest extent and how I've seen on more than one occasion staff physically injure a patient and not only keep their job but get promoted.

But according to you I know nothing about unions.........

Oh nice personal attack there. I'd report it but I'm not a whiney biotch like some of the other members on these forums and I have thick skin so I could care less. I could be a self righteous doosh and tell you how much I make but it's irrelevant. I can say that my job is pretty damn awesome. Enjoy.
 
Unions are legalized extortion. Pay me - or I will make you go out of business by having everyone stop working at once. So its natural that they would try to push things to the next level by blocking the entrance of the other workers. It's not so different from what they are doing in the first place - using combined effort to punish and extort employers who don't capitulate to their demands.

I get it - but I don't get all the holier then thou defense of these guys in the thread. Unions are dirty - its the nature of how they work. So let's not pretend they are some great force for justice..Extortion is not justice. Yes white collar guys negotiate too for huge money. But they don't use threats of violence/violence or ill timed work stoppage to get their money. That makes all the difference.
 
Rob94hawk said:
Yes I'm a dope. A dope that watches first hand how coworkers abuse sick time to the fullest extent and how I've seen on more than one occasion staff physically injure a patient and not only keep their job but get promoted.

But according to you I know nothing about unions.........

Oh nice personal attack there. I'd report it but I'm not a whiney biotch like some of the other members on these forums and I have thick skin so I could care less. I could be a self righteous doosh and tell you how much I make but it's irrelevant. I can say that my job is pretty damn awesome. Enjoy.
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Don't blame abuses by staff and management on a union, I work in a hospital also, one where the nurses and EMT's are non-union. I have seen the exact same things you have posted about. my job happens to be union, SEIU 1199, to be exact. it has allowed us to keep our wages to a livable wage, and gives us someone appeal to in case of an unfair disciplinary action. do we lay around and sneer at the managers and dare them to try and fire us? um, no. you can be fired just as easily for non-performance as anyone else, if not faster, after all, its easier to replace a ward clerk than a nurse...


Try working as a non-union nurse, which I assume you are from the meds you were talking about pushing, it's easy to find a job as a nurse, or at least it is where I work, my wife is a nurse, and I have worked in a hospital for over 10 years so i know a bit about it.


you are blessed with being in a profession where you could easily get a job wherever you would like, so complaining about how much unions suck where you work is an easy fix, I would think.
 
GuyClinch said:
Unions are legalized extortion. Pay me - or I will make you go out of business by having everyone stop working at once. So its natural that they would try to push things to the next level by blocking the entrance of the other workers. It's not so different from what they are doing in the first place - using combined effort to punish and extort employers who don't capitulate to their demands.

I get it - but I don't get all the holier then thou defense of these guys in the thread. Unions are dirty - its the nature of how they work. So let's not pretend they are some great force for justice..Extortion is not justice. Yes white collar guys negotiate too for huge money. But they don't use threats of violence/violence or ill timed work stoppage to get their money. That makes all the difference.
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No, unions are holier than thou, but then neither are corporations. Corporations extort us with jobs all the time. Give us what we want or will move and take our jobs, not any different from unions.
 
Draax said:
The top four at verizon made a quarter BILLION dollars last year. In addition the CEO of verizon was bragging about how they didn't need any bailout and how well they were doing.

Verizon paid no taxes last year, NONE, and yet received 1 billion in tax benefits from the federal government. Curious that the big-wigs at verizon now want a 1 billion concession from their workers. If Verizon had paid taxes they would be on the hook for 11 billion and could single handedly fund the cut to the student loan program.

Why would you take the CEOs side when the current economic crisis is the direct result of piss poor CEOs screwing everyone over at then making off with million in bonuses and compensation.

This is clear cut greed. Verizon doesn't need the money they are simply trying to suck their workers dry. It really boggles my mind that so many are pro-CEO and anti-union when what this really boils down to is giving the money to the guy who makes 30$/hour so he can pay off debt, or put his kid in sports, or save for college education ... verses giving the money to the CEO so they can buy a second vacation home or a third boat.

Your wide sweeping, absolute, generalizations about all union workers are asinine and shameful. Some of you really need to give you head a shake.
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So if you cut the CEO pay to lets say $200k per year and used the rest of it to pay the increased costs for the union contract to stay as it was how long do you think that money will last. My guess is that you would be lucky if you could get 30 days of benefits from the money you want to take from the CEO.

You fail to look at the bigger issue and only want to blame the CEO's salary. A companies purpose is to make a profit. Verizon does not just sit on this profit, they do like most other companies do and that is to use it to better their business and invest in the future of the company. Failure to do so would only mean that they will only be here for the short term.

Wireline is going away and if the company were to continue with the union contract the way it was it would have only speed up the demise of the company. Then where would these employees be? Instead of having jobs where they have to pay something for their benefits they would be out on the street without a job.
 
Wtf.


I can understand people not understanding how unions work if they have never worked in one. and I am not a big fan of a lot of union policies these days.

and I know for a fact, that some people during strikes do the most amazingly stupid things, like damaging the property and reputations of the companies they work for...

But calling unions legalized extortion? saying all unions are useless and all the workers lazy ass bastards that shoould be fired?

do some damn research first, before you condemn the middle class. why do you think a middle class even exists now? google "company town". google "apple uses chinese sweatshop labour"

and for those that claim we don't need unions now, research the difference between what a CEO of a mid size company makes, compared to a typical worker in a non-union job, then compare that as a ratio to 30 years ago. executive wages as a compared to average worker wages have skyrocketed.

companies don't give a damn about workers as long as they make money and the workers keep quiet. remove unions, and conditions WILL regress.
 
motomonkey said:
Wtf.


I can understand people not understanding how unions work if they have never worked in one. and I am not a big fan of a lot of union policies these days.

and I know for a fact, that some people during strikes do the most amazingly stupid things, like damaging the property and reputations of the companies they work for...

But calling unions legalized extortion? saying all unions are useless and all the workers lazy ass bastards that shoould be fired?

do some damn research first, before you condemn the middle class. why do you think a middle class even exists now? google "company town". google "apple uses chinese sweatshop labour"

and for those that claim we don't need unions now, research the difference between what a CEO of a mid size company makes, compared to a typical worker in a non-union job, then compare that as a ratio to 30 years ago. executive wages as a compared to average worker wages have skyrocketed.

companies don't give a damn about workers as long as they make money and the workers keep quiet. remove unions, and conditions WILL regress.
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You have to realize half of the economic mess we're in is due to US. Think about it, where would inflation be if people didn't have as much money as they do? Were would cost of living be? Where would the price of gas be? It all goes hand in hand. Unions serve to push wages higher, which in turn push costs hire, which in turn drives inflation. If people were willing to work for less, costs would never have risen as drastically as they have simply because companies wouldn't sell product at prices they do.

You all think high wages, more benefits, etc., is a good thing. In the short term, yeah, but in the long term, all you're doing is moving the line which essentially serves no purpose. Yeah, organized labor is good for SOME things (such as working conditions, etc), but when it comes to benefits and wages - I'm sorry, but they serve to provide nothing but harm to the economy as a whole.

I say if there's a capable worker willing to provide his services for less, then unions be damned. No one will work for less than what they need to live. The system will balance itself economically. If a company keeps prices high, then they go out of business for lack of sales. It's basic economics. In the mean time, unions have made their mark, laws are in place to prevent "exploitation" of employees now. Unions are useless, and even harmful in this modern economic era.
 
SunnyD said:
You all think high wages, more benefits, etc., is a good thing. In the short term, yeah, but in the long term, all you're doing is moving the line which essentially serves no purpose. Yeah, organized labor is good for SOME things (such as working conditions, etc), but when it comes to benefits and wages - I'm sorry, but they serve to provide nothing but harm to the economy as a whole.
Click to expand...

So now Union cause inflation, good grief. Well union membership has steadily decreased, I don't see prices decreasing.
 
SunnyD said:
You have to realize half of the economic mess we're in is due to US. Think about it, where would inflation be if people didn't have as much money as they do? Were would cost of living be? Where would the price of gas be? It all goes hand in hand. Unions serve to push wages higher, which in turn push costs hire, which in turn drives inflation. If people were willing to work for less, costs would never have risen as drastically as they have simply because companies wouldn't sell product at prices they do.

You all think high wages, more benefits, etc., is a good thing. In the short term, yeah, but in the long term, all you're doing is moving the line which essentially serves no purpose. Yeah, organized labor is good for SOME things (such as working conditions, etc), but when it comes to benefits and wages - I'm sorry, but they serve to provide nothing but harm to the economy as a whole.

I say if there's a capable worker willing to provide his services for less, then unions be damned. No one will work for less than what they need to live. The system will balance itself economically. If a company keeps prices high, then they go out of business for lack of sales. It's basic economics. In the mean time, unions have made their mark, laws are in place to prevent "exploitation" of employees now. Unions are useless, and even harmful in this modern economic era.
Click to expand...

I am no economist, but thats a gross oversimplification if I have ever seen one.


"I say if there's a capable worker willing to provide his services for less, then unions be damned. No one will work for less than what they need to live"

That statement alone, damns your entire argument. those capable workers, happen to live in china, if the jobs are in China, then the point is moot. ever been to to the rust belt? acre upon acre of mothballed, out of date steel mills and factories with nothing left but service industry and medical jobs. and most of the medical jobs are paid for by gosh, Federal Medicade and Medicare money.

"all you're doing is moving the line which essentially serves no purpose"

Exactly how low does the line need to be before a company keeps its jobs in this country? The minimum wage in China is $117 a month (800 yuan) and a good percentage of companies don't even pay that.

The "Poverty line" in this country for 2011 is $22,350 per year for a family of four. the US minimum wage is $15,080 a year, based on a 40 hour week. yeah, lets lower that line some more.

when you talk about worker in assembly plants that due to long standing contracts that make huge wages, I might see your point, for example, the median wage for an assembly line worker at a GM plant is $29 an hour, a bit less than what my wife makes as a registered nurse with 20+ years of experiance. that is far from the norm, most union workers these days, are in service related industries with wages far lower than that.

not as simple as it first appears, is it?
 
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