Well, TN panels are UNACCEPTABLE IMHO

O

oymd

Weaksauce
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I have a Porsche design Syncmaster 151P (IPS) screen for quiet a while now...and wanted to increase my working space...so went out to multiple stores to check what the market has to offer...

I was especially interested in the 22" choices...

Well...from what I saw over the past couple of weeks...I just find them unacceptable...

Sure...for games and movies they are great...but thats a small fraction of what a desktop screen will run...

Text....browsing etc...and everything else other than games (where speed and response time is all that matters) is not good at all...and colors are not accurate enough...

And I could not find ANY non TN 22" screens..!!??

IMHO...TN screens are really bad...and you won't know it...till you've used and got accustomed to the alternative technologies...

I understand they are MUCH cheaper...but they are a MUCH poorer panel as well...
 
Yes... 22" panels are cheap for a reason... but... what is your point...? do you want alternate choices...?
 
Astral Abyss said:
Yes... 22" panels are cheap for a reason... but... what is your point...? do you want alternate choices...?
Click to expand...

Yes...why not...i'm willing to pay more for a quality 22" panel....but it seems that 22" are all TN.

I don't actually get it...are IPS/MVA...or whatever they are called....that much more expensive to make?

Or are the manufacturers just catering to the bigger demands...that is the gamers...

Widescreen...Bigger size...Astronomical response times...But sacrificing image sharpness and quality..?

And hey...why not start a thread about it? I guess this is an important issue...Its quiet unacceptable that a 5+ year old mainstream screen is MUCH MUCH better than what is around now..

Just think back at the CPUs, Chipsets, GPUs, Harddrives, memory...etc...that were present in 2003...and compare them with today's technology....

Don't you think?
 
The CG222W is not S-IPS. It's S-PVA. EIZO uses mostly S-PVA panels these days. The CG221 is the one that's S-IPS, but it costs $5000.

The Lenovo L220x is S-PVA, and it doesn't cost a fortune, but it's still more expensive than a TN monitor.

All the average consumer cares about is size, specs, and price. That's why TN panels have taken over.

Also, I don't think the 151P is IPS either. Samsung doesn't use IPS panels.
 
I hate threads like this because of ignorance!

Anyone who thinks they can walk into BB or CC and actually evaulate a panel is just smoking crack.

I personally had a 26" TN home and a 26" S-IPS. Let me tell you without a good polarizer keep the IPS. I have a pair of 19" screens at work, Viewsonic 930b (P-MVA) and the TN looked GREAT for the person using it!

I bought a Samsung and calibrated the display using the Eye2.

The ONLY hangup on a TN is color at viewing angle. The color shift is noticable, but that's it. Text in a web browser, nearly identical.

Ok so, if you do photowork, LOOK STRAIGHT ON!! If you do this the TN is faster, has better blacks, better options for inputs, and cheaper!

So yeah thanks for another TN sucks thread spoken in ignorance.
 
22 inch is an odd size IMO. Start looking at 24 inchers. There is a wider range of options, and this size makes sense for professional or power users.

If you look into this years crop of LCDs you will find they all of them suck even the expensive ones. Too many issues with backlight bleed, color shifting, lack of inputs, 1 to 1 pixel mapping does not work right, and a list of other stuff.

If you ment to say the price of nonTN panels is too high; I agree.

TN panels just suck, and response time is not as big of a deal as they make out to be.

Sorry to all of the pro gamers out there

Dave
 
Ignoring the TN bashing (really unnecessary) Lenovo L220x is 22" S-PVA with 1920x1200 resolution. But I'd go for 24" instead.
Anyway, 22" TN panels are for people, which want a decent monitor for a good price. Of course, you can pay a lot of money for the 26" H-IPS NEC ;)
 
/ end thread

you guys phail bahahahah

no wait, damn it! i want the last 5 mins of my time back. thanks alot you corrupted fools
 
Yeah, I agree. I've got one of those cheap 22" inchers and it just doesn't have the quality of a CRT. Mostly just the colors with the viewing angles being so poor. Response time is decent though.

Just wait for the laser monitors to hit, laser is where its at!
 
I own a 8 bit 26 and my friend has a Samsung 226BW TN.

My 26 is much better in every aspect, but IMO, the 22's are a worthwhile upgrade over 17 and 19in CRT, 17 and 19in LCD{especially if they're a few yrs old}.

Once you go widescreen, you'll never want to go back.

Text, photo's and gaming are good on the 22's, but HD playback isn't always as good.
The 22 will make a 19in LCD{5:4} look like it shrunk, but a 26-27 will change your life, LOL.

Considering the cost, I think that 22's are just okay, if you want better, get a 8 bit 24-27 and start living it.
It boggles my mind why so many people refuse to spend money on the one thing they use nearly 100% of the time....their monitor.
 
oymd said:
And I could not find ANY non TN 22" screens..!!??
You just made my point....
Click to expand...

I was just responding to your request for non TN 22" panels.

As far as value goes for IPS panels, I would look at the 24-26" range IPS panels ~$700-900 range.
 
Text on my 22" Dell TN sucked outta the box, but after a little work with the Windows Cleartype Tuner, all I'm disappointed with is color fidelity and viewing angles. I think I can live with them. Ye olde 19" CRT was getting a little fuzzy and dim, so I'm stoked for $262 shipped (got it on sale a few months ago.)

Having an XP box and a Linux box hooked up simultaneously is a definite bonus!
 
Good for you OP. I think you should keep your HO's to yourself IMHO.
TN's are for your average consumer. Average consumers do not NEED the quality of nonTN panels. That's why they charge loads more for nonTN. It's a luxury. There is also a lesser need for higher quality small panels. Those getting nonTN's (non average people) are aware of the price and are most probably getting larger sized screens anyway. If you want that higher quality, nonTN panel, stop complaining about the price, suck it up, and buy it. Otherwise stop whining about the cons of a TN. They are perfectly acceptable for the use of many, including myself, IMHO.
 
There's 22" Eizo using S-PVA.

Just look for 2231 model it costs about 600euro (same as good 24" panels).
 
GeminiCool said:
I hate threads like this because of ignorance!

Anyone who thinks they can walk into BB or CC and actually evaulate a panel is just smoking crack.

I personally had a 26" TN home and a 26" S-IPS. Let me tell you without a good polarizer keep the IPS. I have a pair of 19" screens at work, Viewsonic 930b (P-MVA) and the TN looked GREAT for the person using it!

I bought a Samsung and calibrated the display using the Eye2.

The ONLY hangup on a TN is color at viewing angle. The color shift is noticable, but that's it. Text in a web browser, nearly identical.

Ok so, if you do photowork, LOOK STRAIGHT ON!! If you do this the TN is faster, has better blacks, better options for inputs, and cheaper!

So yeah thanks for another TN sucks thread spoken in ignorance.
Click to expand...

I guess you need to calm down...

This is a conversation....not a fight..
 
bencho said:
Good for you OP. I think you should keep your HO's to yourself IMHO.
TN's are for your average consumer. Average consumers do not NEED the quality of nonTN panels. That's why they charge loads more for nonTN. It's a luxury. There is also a lesser need for higher quality small panels. Those getting nonTN's (non average people) are aware of the price and are most probably getting larger sized screens anyway. If you want that higher quality, nonTN panel, stop complaining about the price, suck it up, and buy it. Otherwise stop whining about the cons of a TN. They are perfectly acceptable for the use of many, including myself, IMHO.
Click to expand...

Actually...No...I don't agree with your post....

I bought my 15" 5 years ago...and it DIDN'T cost a fortune, nor was it out of the ordinary average consumer's budget....It is IPS/MVA (whatever)...and not a TN....

Fast forward 5 YEARS...I expected to find a 22' at a REASONABLE price ...and I expected it will BLOW away my 5 year old monitor in EVERY single aspect...

Reasonable prices..I found...but VERY poor quality...that's all I 'm saying...

So I started reading about IPS/MVA/TN monitors..and I found that for the mainstream market...LCDs are actually just getting FASTER in one aspect....but POORER in all the rest...

Shouldn't technology get CHEAPER and BETTER by time? And I'm talking 5 years here!!

I am not complaining or whining like some posters said...I am not going to buy a TN panel...and in the same time I will not pay $3000 for a MVA panel @ 22", when the same MVA panel @ 15" cost 1/8th that price 5 YEARS ago...

Something is not right in the LCD industry...when I bought mine...I was one of few who had LCDs...now LCDs are the norm, and LCDs are supposedly now a VERY OLD and MATURE technology...so how come only TNs are available at a decent price....

When some of you say CHEAP...no...TNs are not cheap...its a mature technology by now....and IPS/MVAs should cost what TNs cost right now...and TNs should be probably used for industrial purposes only.....like factories..etc....

What would an OLED cost then @ 22"...$10000? in the year 2008?

Is it hard to understand my point
 
So sorry about the aggresive tone...

This really only applies to the monitors I've used, the 26" TN and 26" S-IPS. As it applies to these units, it is ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT to say TN is worse.

Here's another translation, spending more on a "better" panel is simply foolish if the panel is not indeed better. After having both at home, gaming and watching HD movies WAS BETTER on the TN. Make no mistake, the TN was better.

Thus I must conclude, it is simply wrong to say TN's are a "lower grade" monitor. For some applications the S-IPS is lower grade.
 
Sorry I disagree,

TN panels can be unacceptable for certain purposes, but they are here, and they are likely going to stay. If someone wants a display for professional photography, IPS is the only way to go. If they are going to view a picture from below, I don't recommend TN. Otherwise, TN quality varies as much as anything. There are good and bad examples of this.

I have used, and owned all panel types: H-IPS, S-IPS, A-MVA, S-MVA, and TN.

My first LCD in 2002 was a TN and it was the worst piece of junk I've ever used. My sister is happy with it now. It had massive vertical color shift problems where whites were yellow slightly off-angle, had a stuck pixel, and cost an arm and a leg. This drove me back to Trinitron CRT.

Since then I've used probably 10 or more monitors of all types of panels.

All have strengths and weaknesses (too many to list right now), but I do take issue with certain comments:

1) Text: Text is very sharp on every TN I've ever tried. Even that crappy TN at my sister's place. In fact, TN based monitors have better text (by far) than MVA monitors, and are on par in this category with IPS. I can post you a picture close up of my TN monitor vs. H-IPS vs. A-MVA. You can decide if you agree or disagree.

2) Colors: Yes, TN can suffer from dramatic color shift, but I've used some TNs that had color calibration as good as my Dell 2005FPW. I know a lot of manufacturers have messed up colors on TN displays, eschewing quality for exaggerated specs, but there are TNs that don't.

Compare these two monitors from Dell:

http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=88&mo1=218&p1=2098&ma2=88&mo2=116&p2=1217&ph=5

Check the "Colors with factory Settings" category. Shorter bars mean closer to optimal colors. I would still choose the 2407WFP over the E228WFP, but one is TN, the other S-PVA, and the TN monitor has colors closer to proper calibrated settings. There are more examples here from other manufacturers of good vs. bad calibration.

'Nuff said.

Anyway to answer your question, there are 22" non TN models available. The Lenovo L220X is an S-PVA wide gamut 1920x1200 resolution monitor in 22" size. Samsung will be bringing the 2263PW with the same characteristics (22" S-PVA @ 1920x1200).

You can choose to wait, or find the Lenovo for a good price now. It will cost you around $400.00 U.S. and it is widely available.

Here's an in-depth review:

http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2008/review-lenovo-l220x.html

Ultimately, needs define choices.

I do agree strongly on your later post. Manufacturers don't care about what's good. If they can sell a TN panel to a photographer who buys one based on lack of knowledge, shame on them. I really wish IPS screens were cheaper. I think this would lead to an adjustment of the market where other technologies would have to play some "catch up". I would like to see vertical viewing angles improve on TN. They did for a few years, but have remained stagnant. I would like to see IPS cheaper, and I would like to see MVA not have input lag, dark color shifts, and text quality issues.

Good luck in your search,

10e
 
10e said:
Sorry I disagree,

TN panels can be unacceptable for certain purposes, but they are here, and they are likely going to stay. If someone wants a display for professional photography, IPS is the only way to go. If they are going to view a picture from below, I don't recommend TN. Otherwise, TN quality varies as much as anything. There are good and bad examples of this.

I have used, and owned all panel types: H-IPS, S-IPS, A-MVA, S-MVA, and TN.

My first LCD in 2002 was a TN and it was the worst piece of junk I've ever used. My sister is happy with it now. It had massive vertical color shift problems where whites were yellow slightly off-angle, had a stuck pixel, and cost an arm and a leg. This drove me back to Trinitron CRT.

Since then I've used probably 10 or more monitors of all types of panels.

All have strengths and weaknesses (too many to list right now), but I do take issue with certain comments:

1) Text: Text is very sharp on every TN I've ever tried. Even that crappy TN at my sister's place. In fact, TN based monitors have better text (by far) than MVA monitors, and are on par in this category with IPS. I can post you a picture close up of my TN monitor vs. H-IPS vs. A-MVA. You can decide if you agree or disagree.

2) Colors: Yes, TN can suffer from dramatic color shift, but I've used some TNs that had color calibration as good as my Dell 2005FPW. I know a lot of manufacturers have messed up colors on TN displays, eschewing quality for exaggerated specs, but there are TNs that don't.

Compare these two monitors from Dell:

http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=88&mo1=218&p1=2098&ma2=88&mo2=116&p2=1217&ph=5

Check the "Colors with factory Settings" category. Shorter bars mean closer to optimal colors. I would still choose the 2407WFP over the E228WFP, but one is TN, the other S-PVA, and the TN monitor has colors closer to proper calibrated settings. There are more examples here from other manufacturers of good vs. bad calibration.

'Nuff said.

Anyway to answer your question, there are 22" non TN models available. The Lenovo L220X is an S-PVA wide gamut 1920x1200 resolution monitor in 22" size. Samsung will be bringing the 2263PW with the same characteristics (22" S-PVA @ 1920x1200).

You can choose to wait, or find the Lenovo for a good price now. It will cost you around $400.00 U.S. and it is widely available.

Here's an in-depth review:

http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2008/review-lenovo-l220x.html

Ultimately, needs define choices.

I do agree strongly on your later post. Manufacturers don't care about what's good. If they can sell a TN panel to a photographer who buys one based on lack of knowledge, shame on them. I really wish IPS screens were cheaper. I think this would lead to an adjustment of the market where other technologies would have to play some "catch up". I would like to see vertical viewing angles improve on TN. They did for a few years, but have remained stagnant. I would like to see IPS cheaper, and I would like to see MVA not have input lag, dark color shifts, and text quality issues.

Good luck in your search,

10e
Click to expand...

Thanks...I hope I find what I want....

It seems you have a good experience with TNs...

The ones that I saw were not good...at least to my eyes...compared to my current one....

Ok then...I have a question for you....Whay are the IPS and the MVA panels so much more expensive than the TNs...if the TNs are actually of comparable quality...

Is having accurate colors on a monitor that much of a technological hurdle?



and BTW....can you suggest me the BEST 22 TN panels out there...maybe I need another look..( no Lonovo where I live :mad: )

Thanks for your post...
 
Well,

I would recommend going to a retail store and seeing what you like. There are some good 22" TN panels out there like the L227WTG-PF from LG, or the Samsung T220, but ultimately, the choice is your's and I can't recommend one over the other. The advantage is most of them are fast and have little input lag, and with a bit of tweaking, can have fairly accurate colors.

You may want to look here for some more suggestions:

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&threadid=2049206&enterthread=y

Good luck,

10e
 
im very happy with my $300 samsung t220. colors are great. blacks are black, whites are white. sure if i move up and down i see a color shift however i dont do that when im sitting in front of the screen. for the price it cant be beat.
 
Yeah, really. I bought a 22", then half a year later I upgraded to a 21". That's pretty messed up, in a way.

My next monitor will be the biggest 1920x1200 non-TN panel I can get.
 
Funkmaster_A said:
My next monitor will be the biggest 1920x1200 non-TN panel I can get.
Click to expand...
Unless you go 1080p, that'll probably mean a 27".

I gradually became disgusted with the colour shift on my 245bw. I don't even have to move my head, the colours are different on the edges of the screen even if my view is centered. Watching movies on it from a comfortable seating position sucks.

Then a few weeks ago I was having lunch in a lounge; I looked up at the cheap lcd tv that was mounted on the wall almost directly above me and the colour shift was much less than what I'd see on the TN at 1/10 the angle. So I said screw all shitty TNs if even a cheapass no name ips or pva tv is that much better.
 
To me the whole point of the 22" is the lower resolution (easier on the machine and arguably the eyes), so that figures that the only nonTNs are either using the higher resolution or cost $1400.
 
1) Text: Text is very sharp on every TN I've ever tried. Even that crappy TN at my sister's place. In fact, TN based monitors have better text (by far) than MVA monitors, and are on par in this category with IPS. I can post you a picture close up of my TN monitor vs. H-IPS vs. A-MVA. You can decide if you agree or disagree.

I don't have a basis of comparison here, but text appears perfectly sharp on my Samsung S-PVA, anyway...(I'd expect this given the relatively high ANSI contrast for an LCD...)
 
oymd said:
I expected to find a 22' at a REASONABLE price ...and I expected it will BLOW away my 5 year old monitor in EVERY single aspect...
So I started reading about IPS/MVA/TN monitors..and I found that for the mainstream market...LCDs are actually just getting FASTER in one aspect....but POORER in all the rest...
Click to expand...

I'm having the same issue looking for a 24". I've been researching monitors and this forum basically craps all over TN. I do web design and I edit raw photos, so I guess I want non-TN, right? Well, why is no one making them? The old Dell 24" was IPS apparently, but the new one is TN? Well, I'm not going to pay $2k for a NEC so I guess I have to find a USED Dell or maybe an Apple display?

So, I got an Apple 23" used. Turns out it had some real nice image burn-in (as some IPS do) and only felt like turning on when it wanted it. So now I'm back to the drawing board, wondering WhereTF are the IPS panels? Is everything TN now because TN has finally caught up? Doesn't seem like it. It kinda seems like they are flooding the market with cheap TN while they can charge even more for nono-TN (e.g. Hazro,Eizo,NEC,etc).
 
I do not like TN panels but they are adequate for most peoples.
One thing is for sure, TN should not be used in large monitors. The poor viewing angles kills the viewing experience.
 
Dell only has had S-PVA 24" panels that I know of, unless there is one before the 2405FPW.

What I think you would want for editing photos for the web (ie. sRGB) is a normal gamut S-IPS or maybe PVA/MVA screen. TN is fine for most purposes, but for photo editing it is definitely not recommended (especially if you do it professionally). Even MVA/PVA might be a stretch depending on your level of pickiness.

The cheapest S-IPS display you can buy bigger than 20" is the Doublesight DS-265W which is coming in August. This is a wide gamut monitor which may not be 100% recommended for sRGB photos (though after calibration just fine for aRGB).

You may also want to look at the Dell 2408WFP or BenQ FP241W/VW which are all VA based screens (Dell being wide gamut, BenQ being standard) as cheaper alternatives, or maybe even the Lenovo L220X which is 22" @ 1920x1200. I'm not sure if such a high-res on such a small screen would cause you issues though if you are a real pixel-by-pixel editor. Another wide gamut screen is the Samsung 245T.

Regardless of what you will want to calibrate any of these screens.

Sorry for the infoglut.

logikx said:
I'm having the same issue looking for a 24". I've been researching monitors and this forum basically craps all over TN. I do web design and I edit raw photos, so I guess I want non-TN, right? Well, why is no one making them? The old Dell 24" was IPS apparently, but the new one is TN? Well, I'm not going to pay $2k for a NEC so I guess I have to find a USED Dell or maybe an Apple display?

So, I got an Apple 23" used. Turns out it had some real nice image burn-in (as some IPS do) and only felt like turning on when it wanted it. So now I'm back to the drawing board, wondering WhereTF are the IPS panels? Is everything TN now because TN has finally caught up? Doesn't seem like it. It kinda seems like they are flooding the market with cheap TN while they can charge even more for nono-TN (e.g. Hazro,Eizo,NEC,etc).
Click to expand...
 
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