What is Operating System, what Application and who is in charge ?

S

simmons2

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Hello

( GreNME please translate my German statements at the end, or make them be translated )

In the last days and weeks we discussed and have localized a very big problem with the combination of Windows Vista Explorer (whole Windows Vista File Management ?) and Kaspersky Internet Security 6.0 for Windows Vista - 32 Bit and 64 Bit, all Editions.

Depending on speed of fixing the problem, first and decisive measures to react and to communicate, this ticking bomb can be deactivated - otherwise a lot of people will have a lot of problems and a lot of lost/corrupted data.

I just got a Mail from Kaspersky confirming problems when copying more than 16'000 files - Kaspersky can reproduce the problem, you probably also can as described in this and other forums ( for example at http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1162423 ).

Kaspersky did NOT say "whe have a bug" - they just say "something is wrong - and we will try to make disappear the problem". I am sure they will, and probably they will do it very fast, because they have a good product (just with a little bug), and they will not sit there watching people UNINSTALLING Kaspersky (because this seems to be the ONLY measure to come over now - just DISABLING Kaspersky does NOT help) !

And this question about "who has made the error" is exactly the source of this thread - not for having a "guilty" one - but for all of us to be able localizing and addressing problems.

===

Those having this problem with Kaspersky/Vista Explorer, after reaching some day (sooner or later) the limit of 16'384 files copied with Vista Explorer (maybe also with all alternative methods to copy files, as soon as Kaspersky is hooked in the copy-process) just get a Error-Dialog-Box from ****Vista Explorer**** indicating " ... not enough memory ... " --- there is NO indication about Kaspersky to be involved --- you even get this ****Vista Explorer**** Error when you have DISABLED Kaspersky !!! After this Error-Message, Vista does not run stable any more until you re boot your system: you can easyly get feedback from Vista Explorer that everything has been copied - but nothing happend (as i have seen it myself), you can have empty folders after copying (as reported by others), explorer.exe hangs or restarts himself, etc. etc..

This case is just ONE example to see how the barrier between Operating System and Application is more and more fuzzy. I think it is a good EXAMPLE to discuss this KIND of problem - when you agree.

Please stop fast this thread when it is misplaced here, when it is not of any interest, when it cannot help anything etc.

Please participate, when you have something constructive to tell.

===

So far i sent the following statements to Microsoft today - in German, you know why !!! Please one of you, translate the text and put it in this thread as reply ( GreNME would be perfect, i think ).

simmons

=== my statements from today, sent to Microsoft Germany, with request to forward as appropriate ===:

- es darf KEINESFALLS sein, dass Anwendungssoftware (und das ist Kaspersky allemal, zwar recht System-nah) das Betriebssystem (und das IST Windows Vista Explorer !!!) UNKONTROLLIERT in Schieflage bringt (und das geschieht hier, wie Figura zeigt) – da muss MICROSOFT entsprechende Vorkehrungen treffen !!!

- es darf KEINESFALLS sein, dass das Betriebssystem dem Benutzer (Fehler-) Meldungen präsentiert welche ANWENDUNGSSOFTWARE betrifft - und auf diesen Umstand nicht UNMISSVERSTAENDLICH hinweist – da muss MICROSOFT entsprechende Vorkehrungen treffen !!!

- die Grenzen zwischen Betriebssystem und Anwendung müssen KLAR gezogen sein / zurückgezogen werden – da muss MICROSOFT entsprechende Vorkehrungen treffen !!!

- in den SELTENEN Fällen wo das Betriebssystem auf Funktionalität von Anwendungssoftware zurückgreift (wie z.B. bei Sicherheits-/Antiviren-/Verschlüsselungs-/Komprimierungs-/Treiber-Software) muss dass BETRIEBSSYSTEM und dessen Support-Stellen als ERSTE Anlaufstelle hinhalten und KOSTENFREI/UNBUEROKRATISCH helfen - es sei denn das Betriebssystem schafft es, KLAR UND UNMISSVERSTAENDLICH auf den eigentlichen Ort des Uebels hinzuweisen – da muss MICROSOFT entsprechende Vorkehrungen treffen !!!

- dies alles, weil EINZIG das Betriebssystem die Moeglichkeit hat (und damit auch die Verantwortung), diesbezügliche Vorkehrungen zu treffen - und das beginnt bei der ARCHITEKTUR des Betriebssystems !!! – und das ist bekanntlich Sache von MICROSOFT !!!
 
who has made the error
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wie kannst du das sagen?? Microsoft !! aber natürlich !!
Microsoft ist Sheißen, richtige Sheißen, das ist ganz klar für mich. LOL :D

du musst für SP1 warten
 
leSLIe said:
wie kannst du das sagen?? Microsoft !! aber natürlich !!
Microsoft ist Sheißen, richtige Sheißen, das ist ganz klar für mich. LOL :D

du musst für SP1 warten
Click to expand...

Very funny. MS isn't shit, it is the shit. And I would assume that SP1 is a long ways off.

I personally thing its Kaspersky's fault - they claim full vista compatibility, yet they still have this problem. Much like how I run avast, whose site goes into detail about how great 64-bit operating systems and software are, yet all of the avast processes are 32-bit.

I said think, as there are many other companies struggling with 64-bit software and drivers. Yes, MS created the operating system and the changes that have lead to these problems, but the software companies have had a year or so to work with Vista and to upgrade their code to be compatible.

You can't expect the same bit of code to work forever (especially complex code), so the design models for software and drivers should be able to adapt to changes like with Vista.

And I would attempt to help w/ your German-English translations, but Ich spreche kleine Deutch (no offense to short Germans)
 
but Ich spreche kleine Deutsch (no offense to short Germans)
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hehehe,

i guess what u are trying to say is "Ich kann nur ein bisschen Deutsch".
 
This isn't the first time Kapersky has created problems looking at files in Explorer (Windows or Vista whatever you want to call it). Which is why I don't use it and use NOD32.
 
Note:
I haven't actually looked at kapersky's engine/filter, but I can make some educated guesses. ;)

Kapersky probably has an Antivirus engine, that communicates to a filter driver, probably through a system service. A filter driver runs at the filesystem level. (It is a filesystem filter.)

There is no blending of operating system/application, it's a blending of filter driver, and service. Explorer doesn't know about filter drivers, all it knows is a copy operation failed for some reason. (Could be a bad driver/Failing Disk/Out of memory, etc...)

AV drivers usually have a cache of stuff they already scanned, so they don't have to scan it again, I assume, (And I want to be clear here, I have not looked at their driver at all) they have a bug in their cache implementation.

Note, I don't speak a word of german, but I assure you that this issue is known within parts of microsoft. ;)

Also Note:
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
 
likely a to-much-haste port

typedef int_16 counter should be typedef int_64 counter
 
:: whistles innocently and goes back to talk to his boss :: {he's working on Vista SP1} [I'm part of the solution, not part of the problem!]

//Wish I could tell you more
\\\Really can't.
 
ElaborateDream said:
:: whistles innocently and goes back to talk to his boss :: {he's working on Vista SP1} [I'm part of the solution, not part of the problem!]

//Wish I could tell you more
\\\Really can't.
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Stop showing off :p

I don't think it's you guys, though. It looks like it's the other guys.
 
Appologies first and foremost:

<threadjack>

Mwarp, drop me a PM or a phonecall sometime soon, 'eh?

</threadjack>
 
mwarps said:
I don't think it's you guys, though. It looks like it's the other guys.
Click to expand...

An operating system should not allow an application to break system functionality. The OS controls the app, not the other way around.

The major possible exception to this is kernel space drivers, but even there, you might construct an argument that allowing kernel space drivers is a flaw in the OS. Microkernel people certainly believe this.
 
jimmyb wrote: An operating system should not allow an application to break system functionality

I would also say: an operating system (Vista) should not allow an application (Kaspersky) to break system functionality (VistaExplorer ) and feedback to the user with "VistaExplorer is out of Memory". How the hell should the user know what's going on !

Shure, you could name VistaExplorer "Application" too - but it's on the DVD named Vista Operating System.

simmons
 
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