Windows 8.1 Update Tries To Win Back Desktop Diehards

heatlesssun said:
There's nothing wrong with legitimate complaints and there are things to legitimately to complain about. But a lot of stuff is made up, like the notion that all the keyboard commands in 7 & 8 are different when they are 90% plus the same with most of the exceptions being ones that exist in 8 that didn't in 7.



Some say that but even a lot of Windows 8 proponents like myself have said that the UI would probably become more keyboard and mouse friendly and configurable over time. There's really nothing up to this point that is an about face, just more options and defaults being more desktop aware and familiar.
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Don't care anymore what you or others say. Add all the "little" changes and its an about face. Boot straight to desktop is one of them for kb/mouse users. Windows 9 will be out next year and should be better then that abomination Widows 8.x no matter what. Those of you that are so in love with Windows 8.x won't need to bother upgrading since its still so new, amiright? You make any post with changes/disagreement sound like a non issue or come up with some excuse why their opinion is wrong. Everybody is just plain tired of it.
 
Putz said:
metro works ok for a tablet but for a pc who the hell wants fingerprints all over the screen... touchscreens on the desktop are a waste of money
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I think the "put a touchscreen everywhere" thing is going to go away as people start to realize that they don't belong some places and do belong in others. It's a developing fad and until the market kinda sorts out where they belong, you're gonna find them in really odd places like on a desktop or laptop where it doesn't make as much sense unless you build an interface that requires it and isn't very elegant or intuitive. They work great on tablets and so does Windows 8, but the phone-style UI and touch-centric model doesn't work as well on a desktop or laptop in the same way it's kinda dumb to put a screen on a console controller (Dreamcast, Wii U, etc.) when buttons and those thumbstick thingies work better so they sell better.

Then again, if anyone ever asks me about Windows 8, I totally go into a made up rant (mostly using stuff I read here) to discourage people from buying it and to help spread the poor opinion. It doesn't have much to do with how I feel about it personally, but I just like doing my part to stir up stuff and make the people I know complain as well. Mostly, I suggest buying a Mac or getting a console instead of a gaming PC.
 
dgz said:
Who's using the start menu? Why? It's useless. Pin the damn things to the taskbar you noobs.
747377@N22.jpg
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When you have as many as 30 regular apps (and another 15-20 semi-regular apps, that becomes unfeasible REALLY quickly.
 
pcjunkie said:
Don't care anymore what you or others say. Add all the "little" changes and its an about face. Boot straight to desktop is one of them for kb/mouse users. Windows 9 will be out next year and should be better then that abomination Widows 8.x no matter what. Those of you that are so in love with Windows 8.x won't need to bother upgrading since its still so new, amiright? You make any post with changes/disagreement sound like a non issue or come up with some excuse why their opinion is wrong. Everybody is just plain tired of it.
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Reading comprehension 101, I suggest you take it. Of course, you already know him and I have never done any such thing that you claim but hey, what are facts and common sense in a discussion, amirite?
 
heatlesssun said:
This just isn't true. The keyboard commands to control the Windows UI between 7 and 8 are extremely similar. 8 actually have substantially more keyboard commands than 7, which is something most probably don't realize.
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Similar, but not the same.

All of the old menu commands like Alt+E+C (as opposed to CTRL+C, which actually came later) no longer work.

Even now, a year or more on, several times a session I still have to back up and make myself use CTRL+C and CTRL+V. Simply because Microsoft felt that tossing out their entire UI was a Good Thing.
 
Chas said:
All of the old menu commands like Alt+E+C (as opposed to CTRL+C, which actually came later) no longer work.
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I'm sorry though I have been googling for a while and I have no idea what you are talking about. Am I miss understanding that there is a keyboard shortcut that is Alt+E+C?

Is Alt+E+C copy on some versions of windows?
That is a really, really awkward key combination.
 
JayJapanB said:
Is the start menu in 7 /modded 8 the best we can do for a UI?
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If all you're doing is Office, web browsing and occasionally listening to MP3s?
The UI for Win8 is probably fine.

For me personally, I'm using several dozen applications throughout the day. I'm also handling remote support for users. To say that the Win8 UI is gravely sub-optimal for my purposes is vast understatement. What's more, I usually have enough windows, client machines and VMs open that the context switch for a start screen is both jarring and disorienting.

And to all the people telling me "get over it". Come do my job for just a day. Then tell me about how great Win8's UI is.
 
Chas said:
If all you're doing is Office, web browsing and occasionally listening to MP3s?
The UI for Win8 is probably fine.

For me personally, I'm using several dozen applications throughout the day. I'm also handling remote support for users. To say that the Win8 UI is gravely sub-optimal for my purposes is vast understatement. What's more, I usually have enough windows, client machines and VMs open that the context switch for a start screen is both jarring and disorienting.

And to all the people telling me "get over it". Come do my job for just a day. Then tell me about how great Win8's UI is.
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So you want a start menu just like w7 or not?
What do you want?
 
Chas said:
No it's not. Which is why I expect more out of a UI than Microsoft is currently providing. If I wanted a Windows 3.1 run-alike, I'd just run Windows 3.1.
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You might have better luck with "Alt+E+C" on it...
 
JayJapanB said:
I'm sorry though I have been googling for a while and I have no idea what you are talking about. Am I miss understanding that there is a keyboard shortcut that is Alt+E+C?

Is Alt+E+C copy on some versions of windows?
That is a really, really awkward key combination.
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And this is what happens when everyone's a "Google Expert".

You have people who simply don't know what they're talking about weighing in as if they did.
 
JayJapanB said:
So, care to explain, sir?
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Why? It's just be more stuff you can't Google. Thus you'd have to fall back on snide, uninformed commentary. I'm gonna get to work now and do something productive with my time.

Have fun.
 
Chas said:
Why? It's just be more stuff you can't Google. Thus you'd have to fall back on snide, uninformed commentary. I'm gonna get to work now and do something productive with my time.

Have fun.
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No worries.
Don't quit your desk job. ;)
 
zz2 said:
Logic behind Metro interface isn't actually that bad.

Before average Joe and power users both used the same interface - the desktop. That meant limiting, cutting out advanced features from desktop so that average Joe could use it.

But now separation has been made. Average Joe gets Metro (for checking mail, web browsing etc.) and power users get the desktop. This means that in the future, power user specific features could be added to windows (like multiple desktops). So Windows 8 may be merely preparation to enable development of better desktop.

http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-ux-designer-on-metro-it-is-the-antithesis-of-a-power-user
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Multiple desktops you say? Don't both AMD and Nvidia already have this functionality built into their software?
 
Chas said:
When you have as many as 30 regular apps (and another 15-20 semi-regular apps, that becomes unfeasible REALLY quickly.
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Hence the Metro page. I have over 75 apps and programs pinned to metro and all are organized in a quick and efficient layout. I click you're there and 1 perhaps 2 scrolls of your mouse wheel and you're through your metro browsing and 1 click your in your program you need. It is extremely clean, efficient, and speedy. You couldn't pay me to go back to the old start menu now.
 
Chas said:
Similar, but not the same.

All of the old menu commands like Alt+E+C (as opposed to CTRL+C, which actually came later) no longer work.

Even now, a year or more on, several times a session I still have to back up and make myself use CTRL+C and CTRL+V. Simply because Microsoft felt that tossing out their entire UI was a Good Thing.
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Oh, there are a lot of legacy keyboard shortcuts that no longer work and they started removing them in Windows 7. Some continue to work but there are several that don't mostly because they were highly inefficient and were replaced with more efficient commands. However, from what I can tell ALT+E+C still works in Windows 8 and Excel 365 just fine, do you happen to have a custom accelerator in use?
 
Chas said:
No it's not. Which is why I expect more out of a UI than Microsoft is currently providing. If I wanted a Windows 3.1 run-alike, I'd just run Windows 3.1.
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Just install Linux , don't even have to buy a new OS for that to work.
 
pcjunkie said:
Don't care anymore what you or others say. Add all the "little" changes and its an about face. Boot straight to desktop is one of them for kb/mouse users. Windows 9 will be out next year and should be better then that abomination Widows 8.x no matter what. Those of you that are so in love with Windows 8.x won't need to bother upgrading since its still so new, amiright? You make any post with changes/disagreement sound like a non issue or come up with some excuse why their opinion is wrong. Everybody is just plain tired of it.
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So Microsoft has never made changes to Windows in response to user feedback? First it's Microsoft isn't listening then when they do it's backtracking? As for Windows 9 I'm sure I'll upgrade as I always do. I would expect 9 to be a refinement of 8, windowed modern apps but still touch and tablet capable and improving on the hybrid design.
 
heatlesssun said:
So Microsoft has never made changes to Windows in response to user feedback? First it's Microsoft isn't listening then when they do it's backtracking? As for Windows 9 I'm sure I'll upgrade as I always do. I would expect 9 to be a refinement of 8, windowed modern apps but still touch and tablet capable and improving on the hybrid design.
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Yeah, that is the problem I have noticed myself. You have the extreme haters that, even if they are the minority, says things that have no logic or sound reasoning. What that does is make the ones with legit gripes look bad or at least makes those who look like 8 haters look extreme.

Most who like it or just simply deal with it do not come on forums like this. Heck, most who even dislike it do not come on here but simply use what works for them. The rest that want things fixed post things to Microsoft so they can actually fix them.
 
Chas said:
Similar, but not the same.

All of the old menu commands like Alt+E+C (as opposed to CTRL+C, which actually came later) no longer work.
Click to expand...

This is a application specific shortcut. It doesn't work in File Explorer anymore but will still work most other applications that have supported it in 8.

Chas said:
Even now, a year or more on, several times a session I still have to back up and make myself use CTRL+C and CTRL+V. Simply because Microsoft felt that tossing out their entire UI was a Good Thing.
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It's interesting how many people slam Windows 8 because it always supposedly takes more clicks or keystrokes to do something but you're kind of arguing the reverse here. Why would anyone use AIt+E+C over CTRL+C?
 
heatlesssun said:
This is a application specific shortcut. It doesn't work in File Explorer anymore but will still work most other applications that have supported it in 8.



It's interesting how many people slam Windows 8 because it always supposedly takes more clicks or keystrokes to do something but you're kind of arguing the reverse here. Why would anyone use AIt+E+C over CTRL+C?
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He might want to edit then copy?
 
dgz said:
Who's using the start menu? Why? It's useless. Pin the damn things to the taskbar you noobs.
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If I pin every program I have to my taskbar, then I couldn't see my tasks on the TASK BAR. Programs I don't use frequently I access through the start menu. Things like Office, Photoshop, or other video editing software. Things I use infrequently I keep on the desktop, like Google Earth or MediaPortal. Things I use frequently I pin to the taskbar, which are only FireFox and Windows Explorer. Nothing else!

The taskbars job is first and foremost managing multiple running applications. Not to act as a ghetto shortcut bar.
 
heatlesssun said:
So Microsoft has never made changes to Windows in response to user feedback? First it's Microsoft isn't listening then when they do it's backtracking? As for Windows 9 I'm sure I'll upgrade as I always do. I would expect 9 to be a refinement of 8, windowed modern apps but still touch and tablet capable and improving on the hybrid design.
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Yes, in this case it is definitely back tracking...nothing more or nothing less. Very begrudgingly I might add. Call it what you want but that's what it is. You and the other Win 8 lover (no names as its not worth my time) should stop the thread crapping. Getting tiring as you are the minority. Numbers don't lie.
 
pcjunkie said:
Yes, in this case it is definitely back tracking...nothing more or nothing less. Very begrudgingly I might add. Call it what you want but that's what it is. You and the other Win 8 lover (no names as its not worth my time) should stop the thread crapping. Getting tiring as you are the minority. Numbers don't lie.
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:rolleyes:
 
Chas said:
When you have as many as 30 regular apps (and another 15-20 semi-regular apps, that becomes unfeasible REALLY quickly.
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As already mentioned I'm intrigued as to the 30+ regular apps you use constantly.

Maybe those of of you that the Taskbar isn't man enough for, could post a pic of your desktops?

I would have thought 20 or so would be fine for most people. I make do with a vary amateur 12 on my workstations Taskbar. But there are some 'special' types I guess.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
Isn't a windowed modern app pretty much a Windows v1.0 through 7 app? :confused:
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No. There are tons of differences between how desktop and modern apps function. One advantage that modern apps have over most desktop apps is that modern apps can resize and scale better to screen size and resolution. As much as people talk about windowed desktop apps many are very bad at resizing and expect to run full screen.
 
pcjunkie said:
Yes, in this case it is definitely back tracking...nothing more or nothing less. Very begrudgingly I might add. Call it what you want but that's what it is. You and the other Win 8 lover (no names as its not worth my time) should stop the thread crapping. Getting tiring as you are the minority. Numbers don't lie.
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Having used Windows 8 daily since the first beta and continuing onto 8.1 and now this update on desktops, laptops and tablets with keyboards, mice, touch and pens I'm just not sure where this backtracking you speak of manifests itself.

I think what is going on here is that some were assuming, both Windows opponents and proponents, that the desktop was going away and I have always considered that nonsense. It seems pretty clear now that the direction of the Windows UI is a hybrid design that will merge elements of both the desktop and modern with options and input detection to control behavior based on input method. I've said this from the start and it's a logical progression of what is clearly a hybrid product.

I know many think that a hybrid UI isn't possible or feasible but I don't think it's nearly as complicated as many make it out to be. So what you're calling backtracking I call refinement of the hybrid design, nothing more, nothing less.
 
heatlesssun said:
This is a application specific shortcut. It doesn't work in File Explorer anymore but will still work most other applications that have supported it in 8.
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Translation. NOW that it's been excised from File Explorer it's "an application specific shortcut". Prior to that it was a standard UI macro.

It's interesting how many people slam Windows 8 because it always supposedly takes more clicks or keystrokes to do something but you're kind of arguing the reverse here. Why would anyone use AIt+E+C over CTRL+C?
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Because Alt+E+C has been fairly universal (due to Microsoft UI standards) and actually pre-existed CTRL+C. And in the time it takes to contort my hand to hit CTRL+C I can have tapped out Alt+E+C and then Alt+E+P.
 
daglesj said:
As already mentioned I'm intrigued as to the 30+ regular apps you use constantly.

Maybe those of of you that the Taskbar isn't man enough for, could post a pic of your desktops?

I would have thought 20 or so would be fine for most people. I make do with a vary amateur 12 on my workstations Taskbar. But there are some 'special' types I guess.
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Well yeah. Some of us actually work for a living.
 
heatlesssun said:
No. There are tons of differences between how desktop and modern apps function. One advantage that modern apps have over most desktop apps is that modern apps can resize and scale better to screen size and resolution. As much as people talk about windowed desktop apps many are very bad at resizing and expect to run full screen.
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I've never had any problems with desktop apps and changing the size of the window. :confused: Scaling is pretty pointless anyhow. If stuff is too tiny to read, you should go get a screen with something other than a dumb-face high and meaningless resolution.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
I've never had any problems with desktop apps and changing the size of the window. :confused: Scaling is pretty pointless anyhow. If stuff is too tiny to read, you should go get a screen with something other than a dumb-face high and meaningless resolution.
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Wow, I never thought we would see a person on here who wouldn't use/need a high res screen with good scaling.

It's official, Microsoft is just plain dumb!
 
Trimlock said:
Wow, I never thought we would see a person on here who wouldn't use/need a high res screen with good scaling.

It's official, Microsoft is just plain dumb!
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That shouldn't be that weird. The highest resolution screen I have is on my laptop 14 inches and 1280x800. There's a 15 inch monitor at 1366x768 and then my netbook with 1024x600. They all do great for anything I need. Higher resolutions look interesting, but I really just don't care and don't need that kinda thing.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
That shouldn't be that weird. The highest resolution screen I have is on my laptop 14 inches and 1280x800. There's a 15 inch monitor at 1366x768 and then my netbook with 1024x600. They all do great for anything I need. Higher resolutions look interesting, but I really just don't care and don't need that kinda thing.
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And it's kinds of resolutions that aren't so hot when it comes to windowing and scaling
 
daglesj said:
So Mr Tech God are you going to share?

Or are you making it up and actually just have 25 Pokemon games attached to your Taskbar?
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* Cisco ANM
* Command Prompt
* PowerShell
* SSH
* GPO
* Network monitor suite
* RDP
* TeamViewer
* VNC
* GraphOn server manager
* Visual Studio
* Delphi
* SQL Server Management Studio
* VMWare
* Company CRM
* Remote version of CRM (as any changes made need to be tested)
* Firefox
* IE
* Chrome
* Filezilla
* E-mail client
* Notepad
* Snipping tool
* Word
* Excel
* Acrobat
* Camtasia Studio
* Winzip

Most of those see regular, daily usage with more than half of them being open simultaneously (several using multiple instances).

Now go ahead and tell me that I'm bullshitting about all this too.
 
Chas said:
Translation. NOW that it's been excised from File Explorer it's "an application specific shortcut". Prior to that it was a standard UI macro.
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Huh? Standard UI macro? I think they are called accelerator keys and they have always been about accessing the drop down menus in individual apps. Ctrl+C is much more universal as it doesn't assume that a program has and "Edit" menu with "Copy" option.

Accelerator keys still work in 8's File Explorer but they are different.
 
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