CreepyUncleGoogle
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Okay...I missed the point. You mean the resolutions I listed don't let stuff scale well or that other resolutions don't?
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Windows 8.1 Update Tries To Win Back Desktop Diehards
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Okay...I missed the point. You mean the resolutions I listed don't let stuff scale well or that other resolutions don't?
heatlesssun
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1366x768 isn't exactly a resolution that's going to drive a lot of windowed apps on screen simultaneously. Sure windowing is great but I think that it's importance in day to day productive work gets to be a bit over stated. And yes more apps on a single screen works better with more pixels to comfortably display those apps.
I'm just curious why you don't pin folders to your task bar or on your desktop?
CreepyUncleGoogle
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Ooookay I understand now. And yes, you're right that displaying more than one thing at a time doesn't really happen often for me but I use Alt+Tab a lot to flip between things if I'm doing more than one thing at a time. Most of the time though, it's just a web browser with a few tabs, a word processor or ebook, one or two folders, and media player. Or banshee, Libreoffice, firefox, and idk what Mint's PDF viewer is called come to think of it.
heatlesssun
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My list of daily apps is very similar, I suspect that much of what's on your list are common staples programs for many people in a forum such as this. I have no problem with managing a list of apps like this with Windows 8. The ones that are ALWAYS running get pinned to the taskbar, there's absolutely no reason not to do this since they are always running and will show up in the taskbar anyway. Most everything else that I run with any regularity I pin to the Start Screen. The debate about the Start Screen notwithstanding, I find the Start Screen is fine for launching apps, even with a mouse and keyboard with efficiency once it's setup.
heatlesssun
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The scenario that you're describing here works well in Windows 8. Alt-Tab has always worked for navigating between all apps, both desktop and modern. The addition of the taskbar in modern apps with this update now makes the navigation between desktop and modern apps easier with a mouse.
heatlesssun
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One thing to remember, especially with something like a calculator that isn't normally associated with a file type and often works side by side with a list of information, is that it can be snapped to the side. And ironically while the included desktop calculator app is a fixed window and can be resized at all, the modern app can be resized horizontally. I snap a modern calculator to the side quite a bit when I want to up some numbers or do unit conversions.
So for your specific case accessing things from the task bar alone might not work.
Search you have trouble with spelling.
Have you considered that you could access all of those programs through the "all apps" menu. It has icons as pictograms for to allow easy recognition without having to decode words.
That's actually a really cool application of it as you wouldn't need to manually resize all of your windows in desktop or keep switching between the calculator and the program.
Neat.
CreepyUncleGoogle
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Yes, it works pretty much exactly the same way in Windows 8. I just didn't really feel very comfy with the interface, even after a few weeks and since I have like no reason to use it over 7, Vista, XP, 2000, or whatever, I just couldn't find a reason to keep it installed. The 8.1 changes are a good thing, but when it comes to computers, I think I'd rather use Mint. Windows used to be better about not having really frequent OS version changes. XP was for sale for ages until Vista came out and 7 was around a long time too, but it looks like new versions of Windows are going to come out almost as often as new versions of Mint which makes the upgrade thing pretty much no different. There's nothing wrong with 8 and I agree that it works in some situations really well, but it's not comfortable for me or for my cat to use so we prefer 7 or some sort of Linux.
Gorankar
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So, it comes down to just not liking the UI? That's not a bad reason, and it is a bit more honest than some.
I seriously dislike the Metro UI. I altered the UI with third party applications, as well as native customization settings, to get it back to what I did like. I will also continue to contend that it was wrong to remove the Win7 style UI features. It was needless. PC, tablets, and phones are different devices, there is no problem in each of them having different UI. Win tablets will do fine when they get the price down, it will just take quite a while to catch up to Android and IOS on those devices.
I seriously dislike the Metro UI. I altered the UI with third party applications, as well as native customization settings, to get it back to what I did like. I will also continue to contend that it was wrong to remove the Win7 style UI features. It was needless. PC, tablets, and phones are different devices, there is no problem in each of them having different UI. Win tablets will do fine when they get the price down, it will just take quite a while to catch up to Android and IOS on those devices.
Nope, nice list.
CreepyUncleGoogle
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Yup, basically I just don't really like how it feels. It's a personal taste thing and maybe it'd be different if I used it on a tablet, but I just use laptops so I don't know if it would be different or better feeling for me there.
The 8 inch Windows tablets are pretty much price competitive (I think) already with some of them a lot less than $300, but they're kinda short on storage space. It's the ONLY thing I really don't like about the current super cheapo Windows tablets besides that I really need a keyboard pretty much all the time and tablets basically turn into laptops when you give them a keyboard.
Well basically MS is getting back to the old release schedule for Windows. When you look back pre XP we were getting a new OS every 18 months to 2 years. It's just that since XP we've got used to longer periods. We had 5 years between XP and Vista. 3 years between Vista and 7 and another 3 years between that and 8.
Personally I'm happier with 3-4 years. However, MS could help all of us with adopting a new strategy of delivering alternate domestic and business orientated OS releases.
So every two years a new OS is launched but they alternate between domestic and business orientation. Say take 8/8.1 as a domestic release and 9 as a more business/enterprise centric OS and so on.
Then both types would know which OS was specifically aim at them and give each user a 4 year window between releases.
CreepyUncleGoogle
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I really like your alternate release schedule idea. That makes a lot of sense from a customer perspective since things won't change as quickly. I wonder if MS will be doing something like that with Windows 9 or if it'll have more business-targeted appeal. (Not that businesses aren't using 8, but it seems like most companies are just getting done with or have just finished moving from XP to 7.)
I think there might be some consumer confusion though it Microsoft doesn't make sure it brands the OSes clearly or maybe limits their business release to non-consumer sales channels though that might lead to missed sales from Joe Average who wants to buy a business OS license so the home and work computers are more similar.
I think there might be some consumer confusion though it Microsoft doesn't make sure it brands the OSes clearly or maybe limits their business release to non-consumer sales channels though that might lead to missed sales from Joe Average who wants to buy a business OS license so the home and work computers are more similar.
I'm ok with Windows 8. It performs nicely and I've adapted to it. But I can fully understand anyone who would rather stay with Windows 7.
I work on the helpdesk at my company and handle things from troubleshooting to desktop deployments. Unless we're rolling out a tablet, we're not budging from Windows 7. I've seen the look of sheer panic on some people's faces when a single icon disappears so you could only imagine the reaction these same people would have if you took away their start menu.
It really surprises me that Microsoft couldn't give you both the Metro UI and Start Menu. I would imagine it wouldn't be a difficult task for them to implement.
I work on the helpdesk at my company and handle things from troubleshooting to desktop deployments. Unless we're rolling out a tablet, we're not budging from Windows 7. I've seen the look of sheer panic on some people's faces when a single icon disappears so you could only imagine the reaction these same people would have if you took away their start menu.
It really surprises me that Microsoft couldn't give you both the Metro UI and Start Menu. I would imagine it wouldn't be a difficult task for them to implement.
Well basically the operating system under the hood would be say 85% the same. Its just that in one version the more media/home/social features will be front and center and in the other more business/tech/enterprise type aspects would be pushed.
it would also be a more sensible way for MS to introduce major changes to the UI. As they could put the most dramatic changes into the domestic release and let folks get used to it at home and then have some of those changes eased into later business releases over time.
Currently Microsoft issues the same OS for everyone pretty much but the fact is only say 1 in 3 of any Windows versions really gets picked up by business in any appreciable volume. Most of them don't fit the current business refresh cycle set mostly all the way back by the big NT4 Y2K refresh.
8.1 has the quick launch bar active again. I boot straight to desktop, and have a few non steam games on the desktop. On the quick launch bar I have the usual, email, web browsers x 3, notepad, calculator, etc. Rest of games are steam typically. I put commonly used applications like office products (word, excel, etc) on the metro interface. So when I need to use one of those programs, I just hit the windows key or click the lower left and select. I essentially use the metro UI stuff like a start button for programs that I don't use everyday but do still use semi-frequently. It works very well.
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Clutter. If I pin all of them to the task bar, in addition to the other stuff I don't keep pinned on the Start Menu, I fill the taskbar at 1920x1080. Or I'm dealing with double-row taskbars (which I personally detest).
On the Start menu, they're in a nice organized list that I can actually read instead of fiddling with tool tips. Also, because I don't leave stuff on the taskbar, I know, without having to open the process monitor, what programs I have open at a given time.
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I have nothing against your personal preference. If you're copacetic with the Start Screen, that's fine. I just find it context-breaking, as I have multiple monitors full of windows and views into other machines and devices. If I wasn't so busy, I'd probably take time to attune to it naturally. But I'm usually VERY busy, and breaking context with what I'm doing at a given moment can be confusing and somewhat dangerous.
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Yes, I could. But it's extra steps, and as I mentioned, the Start Screen breaks context. I'm sometimes working on 3-4 things simultaneously (sometimes doing identical things on different systems, some of which belong to clients). Breaking context when I'm doing stuff like this can be very confusing as I then have to stop and reorient myself to the proper client. Otherwise I can do things that are AMAZINGLY destructive to clients and their systems and data.
Basically, I have a setup that works for me. It's been set up mostly through trial (as I'm trying like hell to avoid errors which can be BIG LAWSUIT expensive). It allows me to multitask with high efficiency and speed with a good modicum of working safety.
Windows 8's UI kinda tosses a wrench into it and I'm already having to slow down considerably to accommodate Win8/Server12 on client machines.
DejaWiz
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I think it would be practical for Microsoft to focus on a single Windows version per the targeted segment:
Windows <X> Enterprise for businesses (very extended support)
Windows <X> Home (all Ultimate features) for PC's and laptops with a choice of Metro or DT+full start menu
Windows <X> Touch for phones and tablets with Metro
Ur_Mom
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I know quite a few businesses (mine included) that will not deploy Windows 8 because of the lack of Start Menu. We have to look at it from our users viewpoint and how they will accept it. From our initial pilot stuff, no way it would happen company wide. If enterprise had the option to bring it back, we'd be migrating to Windows 8 right now. But, we are waiting for Windows 9 at the earliest, and may bypass that as well. Depends on if our users adapt to Windows 8+ at home and learn it.
heatlesssun
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Sort of perplexed by what you're saying here. This kind of scenario is described often but it sort of makes the Start Menu sound like an application. I actually get tripped up with Windows 7 with multiple monitors because of the taskbar being on only one monitor versus Windows 8.
I do sort of get the idea of the full screen Start Screen being distracting but at the same time when you launch the Start Menu or Start Screen, the idea is that you're breaking what you're doing anyway and on to something else.
heatlesssun
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But a lot of this is just what people have heard. For the typical well managed corporate desktop, Windows 8 isn't necessarily that big of change from Windows 7. But clearly the idea that the Start Menu HAS to be there or people can't be productive or they get confused is clearly a big issue that rumor is that Microsoft will address with some type of Start Menu like feature in 9. It's possible that there might be one more update to Windows 8.1 which might do something in this regard.
Its not a rumor or just what we've heard...I work with a multitude of businesses that will not deploy Windows 8 because of the phone UI. Ours being one of them. I haven't heard of any that are (although I'm sure some will).
No CIO or IT Manager that wants to stay employed is mass installing Windows 8 with the forced Disney Activity Centre UI that replaces the tried, true and working Start Menu. End of story.
Ur_Mom
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No, it's not that big of a change. But, I'm a PC guy so it's easier for me to learn it. For our users (that we have direct input from), they have a difficult time with it. We'd rather not have 600+ users call us to teach them how to use the Start Screen, charms, etc..
It's definitely not a rumor. It's a valid concern with a lot of people and businesses. People that actually have tried Windows 8 and tried to use it for a while. We take direct input from our users. I hear it direct from home users. Some Microsoft employees recognize the fact yet cannot change it (they work with customers and businesses). So, it's definitely not a rumor and is a real issue. How big? 25%? 50%? 75%? 1%? Who knows. It is an issue, though. I find that a lot of people that get it with their new PC have little issues, but get used to it. Others just cannot get used to it. It's really random and a toss up. In business, though, you want smooth rollouts.
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Basically I have the taskbar on my primary desktop, along with whatever things I'm working on immediately.
The start menu pops up over the top left side (have my bar on top), and it usually doesn't obscure what I'm doing when I launch another program.
The Start Screen basically covers all that stuff, breaking context. And if I have to go into the All Programs screen as well, I then need to waste time making sure I'm working in the right windows again. I'm not saying I'm so vague that this ALWAYS happens. But when I'm grinding away on a couple clients, anything that cuts down on the possibility of confusion is welcome.
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Basically, outside of individuals running their own business, all of our clients 5 employees or more have stated that they're avoiding Windows 8 due to this. Mainly due to retraining issues (not always simply cost).
I wanted dell venue 8 and 11 pros but the elite pads are "corporate". Guess that justified the 1k price tag on them heatlesssun
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Maybe my post wasn't clear I was trying to say that the lack of a Start Menu is clearly a big problem in 8 and that rumor has it that there will be some type of Start Menu or mini-Start Screen in Windows 9. It's obvious that the full screen elements are an issue with a lot of people and this needs to be addressed. However I do think that this issue is way overblown and that the Start Menu isn't nearly the quintessential tool of desktop efficiency that many make it out to be. Otherwise I don't know how anyone would be able to effectively use Windows 8 as a desktop OS.
I use a Microsoft Touch Mouse that supports a number of gestures. I use a two finger flick up to activate the Start Screen, that's just TONS faster than a button click because is can happen anywhere on the screen and on any screen with a multiple monitors setup.
Er....that was supposed to be 50k...but ya I was really pushing for venue 11 pro for the attorneys and the 8 pro for case workers. Really thought the stylus was a great selling point and that Dell is a preferred vendor but poor stylus reviews and the fact that hp markets their elite pads as corporate devices killed the Dell deal. But windows 8 wasn't as vilified as I thought it would be. I pads weren't considered but we're bought for some of the VA reps since they don't have to access any of the special state programs; however, for those who do full windows was a necessity.
Guess who gets to do the training? Yep this guy does.
Guess who gets to do the training? Yep this guy does.
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heatlesssun
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It is unfortunate that Dell had all of the issues it did with their pens. When you get a good one like I did it works very well for handwriting. Desktop OneNote with a pen on the V8P is pretty sweet. For what these things cost desktop OneNote with an active pen well beyond iOS and Android. For all of Windows 8's issues, it is a pretty solid tablet OS at this point, with the biggest issue being touch/tablet apps, but that's actually come a decent way considering the hostility towards 8.
If Windows 9 can solve the major issues of its hybrid design, it's going to get very interesting, especially now that Atom SoCs are now solid with Bay Trail. The thing is, what single OS can do all that Windows 8 does on all of the devices and input methods that it supports? 8 is far from perfect, but there's really nothing else that is as capable either. If Microsoft can perfect the hybrid design, it will be a big win for them. Not an easy task but not impossible either.
Hagrid
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