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SystemCooling + AC
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Erasmus354
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...patience is a virtue. SystemCooling might just want to space out their reviews, the editor is on vacation, webmaster is sick. Could be a number of reasons.
DFI Daishi
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vindication of the sort that A-C outperforms aftermarket air and Tt gear while overclocked, or that it can put up results that legitimately compete with what bit bore equipment can do if you cut the flow in half?Top Nurse said:Yeah I know...but having it all in writing will make me feel good. Vindication is like =>
DFI Daishi
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i don't much like crows.......even if some hippie witch wannabes call them ravens and try to feed and foster them around here. so far as i'm concerned they're vermin who don't know anything about anything and live in a fansasy world.......theseeker said:
oh, i'm not going to try and spell out parallels just yet..........i have just finished up with all of my seminars, lab exams and papers, so i'm in a good mood right now......
just you wait until i hit fiinals.......then we'll all see some acid.
DFI Daishi
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venom, then?theseeker said:
DFI Daishi
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okay.....now i'm honestly curious: is this yet another expression that i am totally unfamiliar with? (see: "scoots")Top Nurse said:Well...I suppose we will just have to wait to see who eats crow. Me thinks you will no matter what the results of the review turn out to be.
in all seriousness, i expect A-C to split the gap between what good aftermarket air and what well planned high flow can do.
you say that the O-C performance gap between A-C and big bore is so small that it doesn't matter.
i say that if you're going to take that stance regarding A-C vs big bore, you should stick to aftermarket air, since it costs less, looks better and A-C only outperforms good air by a similar margin.
yeah, the review is going to show SOMETHING........i'm just wondering how it was conducted, and if they will make it readily comperable with what domestic bits can do.
DFI Daishi said:
"scoots" are those things that help you scoot through life. Prominent examples are cash, gold, silver, big credit line, etc. They can also be things you hold of value like cars, boats, airplanes, and even AC gear.
I think that what will come of this review is that people will know that they can get one block (Cuplex XT) and by using various tubing sizes can get predictably consistent results that will run as good as the best of them. No need to put anything bigger than a 3/8" ID tube to get what you want and that the difference in using a 6mm ID tubing is minimal for the intended usage.
Let's face facts here, most people only watercool so they can say that they are watercooling. Most people OC the crap out of their boxes to see what it will do and then set it at some reasonable OC, while it is watercooled, so that the dang thing lasts a while due to the better cooling it receives. So...with what is left it should be obvious that all things being equal you either choose a highg flow or low flow system based on what you figure to be the best looking for you. IMHO, Aqua Computer gear is the best looking stuff on the planet. Why do you think so many cases are sold with windows on them.........
Erasmus354
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Top Nurse said:
That is where you are fundamentally wrong. You are imposing your views of what a watercooling system should be on everyone, and claiming they aren't making logical decisions because they dont follow your tilted logic. For MANY people looks are the last thing they consider in a cooling system. Some people have a set budget, others want a set level of performance.
For a large number of people, even if they like how AC looks, it simply costs too much and offers no tangible performance benefits. I keep saying that the only reason to buy AC is for looks or trinkets. The reasons not to buy AC are: Availibility, looks (goes both ways), price, price/performance ratio, customer service (sharka has horrible return policies) etc...
So it would appear evident that reasons TO buy AC are very superficial, whereas the reasons not to buy are a bit more concrete. Regardless, it does not mean that AC is a poor watercooling choice. However when you start jumping up and down acting like you are vindicated and now have a free pass to sling your crap in the face of everyone on this forum simply because the performance is close to big bore blocks...well that is ignorant. If the flow curve of the Cuplex XT turns out to be similar to the Nexxxos XP (likely) then all it shows is that if you give it a good flow rate from a strong pump (not often with typical AC tubing and pumps) that it can perform well.
If Lee also conducted a test not on the die sim but with a real world test using the entire setup provided by Sharka. Well he has already proven that any results from a "real world" test are useless. Storm = Apogee = Maze3 anyone? So if the real world results show that the AquaComputer stuff performs as well as the other stuff...then why not just pick a Maze 3 from someone for 5$ since it supposedly performs the same?
EDIT: Just thought I would add that my only real gripe with sharka is the exorbitant restocking fee they want to charge on returns. Their shipping was very quick, and they seem to be on top of the ball. So they aren't a bad vendor, just a few spots I think they should fix.
darkisz said:
You offer nothing meaningful to the discussion. Erasmus took the time to lay out a clear, concise post that pretty much sums up the views of many of us "high flow" guys. Although it's open to debate, I for one feel that AC makes some great looking products, but that's one facet of watercooling that simply doesn't interest me, nor does it really interest many others.
I think it's fair to call Aqua Computer the Maserati of the watercooling world: You have some great options, the performance is there, the components look good, but an uglier, cheaper Corvette Z05 will still edge out a Maserati on the track. There's still nothing wrong with buying the Maserati, however.
Your intentions here are to push the thread in a bad path, and that's not what these forums are here for you to do.
thewhiteguy
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How great do they look after the mixed metals start corroding eachother?phide said:
Obviously not so great. I don't quite understand why they would intentionally mix aluminum and copper components, but Germans have had an infatuation with aluminum for quite a long time (it seems), and they claim that AquaCoolant (or whatever it's called) makes this a nonissue.
Galvanic corrosion is possibly something that AC simply doesn't believe in. That, or they are simply too stubborn to begin using plastics for their popular aluminum items due to aluminum's signature appearance.
Galvanic corrosion is possibly something that AC simply doesn't believe in. That, or they are simply too stubborn to begin using plastics for their popular aluminum items due to aluminum's signature appearance.
madmat
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Top Nurse said:"scoots" are those things that help you scoot through life. Prominent examples are cash, gold, silver, big credit line, etc. They can also be things you hold of value like cars, boats, airplanes, and even AC gear.
I think that what will come of this review is that people will know that they can get one block (Cuplex XT) and by using various tubing sizes can get predictably consistent results that will run as good as the best of them. No need to put anything bigger than a 3/8" ID tube to get what you want and that the difference in using a 6mm ID tubing is minimal for the intended usage.
Let's face facts here, most people only watercool so they can say that they are watercooling. Most people OC the crap out of their boxes to see what it will do and then set it at some reasonable OC, while it is watercooled, so that the dang thing lasts a while due to the better cooling it receives. So...with what is left it should be obvious that all things being equal you either choose a highg flow or low flow system based on what you figure to be the best looking for you. IMHO, Aqua Computer gear is the best looking stuff on the planet. Why do you think so many cases are sold with windows on them.........
I dunno where you were raised but where I grew up scoots were either Hogs or a case of the trots.
Personally I think dragging out this review like this is pretty unprofessional, if it's done put it up unless there's an issue. If I can work sick the webmaster can sit at his PC an put up a review. He's most likely whiling away his time surfing for pr0n anyways.
madmat
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Top Nurse said:Southern California...the land of the BIG scoots.
Personally I think it has something to do with Sharka and their timing.
I'm from Modesto and Stockton. I'm sure you've heard of at least one of those. Up there those are known as Perks.
Why would Sharka have anything to do with holding up the review? They dragging their feet going over it?
thewhiteguy said:
You repeat this statement over and over. You must know something that some of us do not know. Along with a few auto manufacturers, gas turbine manufacturers and countless others. Question for you; how long does it take for the corrosion to occur? I have been running the mixed metal setup for over a year and I have no signs of corrosion.
BTW, how do you feel about magnesium and aluminum?
madmat said:
I know Modesto and Stockton as I used to have a lot of business dealings in the Central Valley before I became a nurse. The nicer place is Modesto though.
I can only imagine that Sharka wants to wait until they have all the parts necessary to sell their "kit" that is being reviewed. Makes simple sense to me otherwise SystemCooling would have published already.
I do find it interesting that they manufacture a mix of copper and aluminum components when they know and understand the associated risks. You've seen nikhsub's acetal (Delrin) AquaTube clone, Nurse. Would you or other AquaComputer users still opt for an anodized aluminum AquaTube when given an option to use a risk-eliminating acetal or clear acrylic variant?
We all take risks when taking the plunge, but why take risks that are unnesessary once we reach that point?
We all take risks when taking the plunge, but why take risks that are unnesessary once we reach that point?
DFI Daishi
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theseeker: i have linked you to articles on this subject before. google galvanic corrosion. it's real and it's a concern at room temperatures when metals have a fluid bridge between them and a path to ground.theseeker said:
the galvanic potentail between Al and Cu is large. they corrode in pure water noticeable within a month. the anodized coating on the Al combined with a anti corrosion additive in the coolant mixture slow down the process drastically, but a fault in the anodization or an improper mix ratio will kill your gear prematurely.
the galvanic potential between Cu and Ag is much smaller. a coolant additive is certainly in order to preserve your hardware for as longs as possible, however even if the mix ratio is not correct the corrosion will take place very slowly.
I'd be happy to dig up a few links for you later tonight. Galvanic corrosion should be a very serious concern to anyone who places galvanically dissimilar metals in fluid contact with one another.
Concerning silver and copper, they're galvanically similar enough (close enough on the Anodic index) to not be a cause for concern. I take the relatively slight risk because of the minute benefits of running a coolant with a greater heat capacity and more ideal viscosity (something I deem fairly performance for ideal performance with the Storm G5). I've also seen no articles concerning the length of time copper would take to significantly corrode silver when both are submerged in water, so I don't personally feel it's anything to be concerned with. I'll also note that, as an enthusiast and budding block designer, I understand and accept the potential risks of running silver and copper in the same loop and do my best to minimize them. The typical end-user may not have any idea what galvanic corrosion is or what it can do, and I don't believe AC goes to any length to inform anyone of potential risks.
In a typical environment, a difference of .25V in the Anodic index is tolerable. The difference between copper and pure silver is roughly .2V. The difference between un-treated aluminum and copper can be as high as .6V.
This issue really depends on the anodization AC is doing with their aluminum products. This may be something you could answer for me.
Concerning silver and copper, they're galvanically similar enough (close enough on the Anodic index) to not be a cause for concern. I take the relatively slight risk because of the minute benefits of running a coolant with a greater heat capacity and more ideal viscosity (something I deem fairly performance for ideal performance with the Storm G5). I've also seen no articles concerning the length of time copper would take to significantly corrode silver when both are submerged in water, so I don't personally feel it's anything to be concerned with. I'll also note that, as an enthusiast and budding block designer, I understand and accept the potential risks of running silver and copper in the same loop and do my best to minimize them. The typical end-user may not have any idea what galvanic corrosion is or what it can do, and I don't believe AC goes to any length to inform anyone of potential risks.
In a typical environment, a difference of .25V in the Anodic index is tolerable. The difference between copper and pure silver is roughly .2V. The difference between un-treated aluminum and copper can be as high as .6V.
This issue really depends on the anodization AC is doing with their aluminum products. This may be something you could answer for me.
corrosion typically occurs when you mix the metals and they touch....... Other than the Aquagraphics with a copper core (not recommended by AC), I don't see a problem.
I too have been running AC loops for over a year and have had less a corrosion problem than I did with my Dangercrap, Swifcheap, and Dtek blocks.
I too have been running AC loops for over a year and have had less a corrosion problem than I did with my Dangercrap, Swifcheap, and Dtek blocks.
phide said:
Finally, someone who knows their metals. I understand the concern some may have with mixing metals. However, we are not talking about extreme temps or extreme conditions, which I understand to be a big factor in the corrosion department. AC is not the only company that markets a fluid to use in a mixed metal environment.
It may come as a surprise, but Ferrari, Aston-Martin and Porsche all have mixed metals in their cooling cycle in their cars. Corrosion can be controlled by chemicals/additives or whatever you wish to call them.
theseeker said:
Not surprising at all. In fact, you'll find that many manufacturers do the same. Aluminum radiators, water pumps with steel housings, copper heater cores - all very typical in a performance cars. But most auto manufacturers also don't place a high concern on using coolants with an ideal viscosity. Most auto manufacturers stress an anti-freeze/water ratio of about 25/75, which is much higher than anyone would ever be interested in using in a PC cooling loop. Engines need to operate within a temperature range (under 180 degrees, was it?), while PC water cooling is, for most, about striving to reach the lowest temperature core possible. If you remove fluid contact with any other metals, you can use a more ideal coolant (distilled water) and effectively increase performance. Many water pumps have no metal components that would come in contact with the coolant, so having plastic/acrylic/acetal AquaTubes, AquaBays, AquaGiraffes and whatever other components instead of aluminum will allow one to use straight distilled water. Reduces cost, reduces complication, eliminates risk.
I get the whole idea of using aluminum as much as possible, as aluminum/colored anodizing has a look that's really sharp, and I understand that it's AquaComputer's signature look, but I suppose I'd like to see some material alternatives before I'd be interested in buying AC gear. And believe me, for a cooling system where performance might not be the ultimate priority (on an older system, perhaps), I'd definitely consider an AC configuration.
I'll dig up some articles concerning galvanic corrosion and post them later tonight/tomorrow if you'd still be interested in them. Let me know.
R1ckCa1n said:
Corrosion occurs whenever there is any conductive contact between dissimilar metals. If you bond a plate of copper and a plate of aluminum in a vacuum, you'll end up with corrosion. If you bond a plate of copper, a block of plastic and a plate of aluminum in a vacuum, you've created a non-conductive barrier and corrosion can't occur. In a cooling loop, fluid is the conductive contact between metals.
This is something non-conductive coolant attempts to alleviate, but I haven't seen any fluid that's 100%, bar-none non-conductive. They may certainly be enough to prohibit corrosion for a very reasonable span of time, however.
madmat
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taqueso said:
Here's what happens after 6mo.s of 90/10 (Water/Zerex) water and coolant mix with a bimetal block.
I think I wouldn't follow their advice.
thewhiteguy
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No snappy name for Dtek?R1ckCa1n said:
Erasmus354
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thewhiteguy said:No snappy name for Dtek?
If you just ignore the trolls they go away eventually.
thewhiteguy
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To them I am the trollErasmus354 said:
madmat said:Here's what happens after 6mo.s of 90/10 (Water/Zerex) water and coolant mix with a bimetal block.
I think I wouldn't follow their advice.
So where did you get this pic from and what was the date of it?
You guys always pop up with the same old pic...
So lets take some real life examples of what we are talking about. The Koolance EXOS has been around for a good deal of time now with multiple metals used in their systems. So where are all these corroded systems that should be abundant according to your theory?
In addition to Koolance there are many other manufacturers of water cooling systems that utilize multiple metals in their designs. Among them are Aqua Computer, Innovatek, Alphacool, and a bunch or other smaller less known companies. So where are all these pictures of their rotted out corroded systems? Due to the amount of these systems sold there should be thousands of pics floating around that show the type of corrosion you are talking about.
So we get back to old saw about book knowledge vs street knowledge, heh? Seems that people can point to books and what not and say see I am right! However, the real world just stumbles along doing what you say is impossible. The real facts are incontrovertible are they not? Where are all the pictures? Where are all the screwed up systems being returned to manufacturer's? If what you say is true then all manufacturer's would be only selling copper systems because they wouldn't want to deal with the returns correct? So why are they selling mixed metal systems? Jeez...maybe because they work just fine?