Virginia Tech Shootings

XLeezardx said:
CCW holders or not, its not going to make a difference. I have a few friends with gun license and they arent exactly law abiding citizen. Matter of fact, 9 years ago, i had a friend who got his gun license when he became 21. He was able to purchase alot of guns at the gun shows and many of them didnt even have papers. Private sellers used to sell him unregistered guns as long as he can show them u have a license to carry. Well, he sold a bunch of those guns to bad people in my town. I mean dont get me wrong, i love guns and I would love to carry it in the night clubs and bars, I just dont think its a good idea. Stray bullets would just fly everywhere when hell breaks loose.
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As for "unregistered" that means nothing. Few states require registration. That's why you have to get a license ie. Purchase Permit. Again that has nothing at all to do with a CCW permit. A permit to purchase is not a permit to carry. Learn the law. If you think it's that easy to buy a handgun I challenge you or anybody to try to get a dealer to sell you a handgun without "papers". It just doesn't happen. That's all typical liberal propaganda to scare folks.
 
w1retap said:
Just another point of clarification:
- Law abiding citizens don't use guns to kill people. Exceptions are in self defense where lives are being taken, or your own life is about to be taken.
- Guns don't kill people. Whacked out people with guns kill people.
- If guns were banned, only the criminals would have guns.
- Law abiding citizens with a CCW could prevent crime and deaths.
- Criminals with guns use them for evil.
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QFT.
 
Staff should be allowed to carry firearms, and if they do, they should have to take tests/classes/whatever you want to call them every few months to make sure they are properly trained.

What would happen when someone runs to their car to grab a gun and runs back to where the shooting is taking place?
What happens when multiple people run to their cars and come back with their guns?
What happens when these people start shooting back?
How are you going to tell the "good" from the "bad"?

When you add more guns into the mix it isn't going to make it better. It could make it better, and it could also cause a hell of a lot more confusion and stray fire resulting in more wounded/deaths.

Its sad that this happened, and its even worse that people like Jack Thompson are trying to capitalize on it. I just wish the media would tear into guys like him instead of trying to get more viewers / better ratings from it.
 
Shark-MegaByte said:
The problem with having a lot of CCW holders in the mix is that people have trouble thinking when a shooting happens. The reasoning, intelligent part of the brain get pushed aside by the quicker-reacting, instinctive part, and your decisions are heavily influenced by adrenaline and snap judgments that can as easily be dead wrong as right. This is why police officers sometimes shoot people who turn out to have been unarmed - they see behavior they think is suspicious, start to get excited and get into a 'chase mode,' and when they see something that could be threatening, they shoot by default to protect themselves.

Consider then what could happen if there had been CCW holders on this college campus distributed randomly throughout the area of the shooting. The closest one hears shots, and approaches to see what's going on, sees the attacker, fires at and incapacitates him. Another one is coming from slightly farther away, sees the first CCW holder in the vicinity with a drawn weapon, does not notice the weapon of the attacker because he's on the ground. Second holder is very likely to shoot at first holder, who may assume second holder is an accomplice and return fire. Introduce keyed-up police officers after this point and there is still lots of potential for high loss of life. Probably not as high as if the nutcase criminal had gone unopposed, but my point is, don't assume that having more guns distributed among people in the building would be a neat and pretty solution.
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NO…

You would not have “lot of CCW holders”, only a few percent of the people eligible get CCW.

The scenario you put forth is quite frankly not believable especilly in the light of what we have seen happen when no one is allowed to carry. We don’t have to assume what happens when only the murder is armed.
 
Teknikallysekure said:
I think people mistakenly believe that one priority intrinsically equals another.

Personally I don't really trust anything to be one way or another. Accepting this has lead me to live not only much more happily through sad situations, but more apt to deal with unexpected situations as well.

My argument is entirely upon the basis that all people, regardless of their priority should have a reasonable method of self preservation. In modern American society that requirement details a firearm. It's that simple.

The police don't exist to prevent crimes through any other method than a show of force that becomes a pshcological factor pervading upon the community. Other than that they are a reactionary force, and we can't expect them to be there for us at all times when unexpected situations like this arise.

Hence the need for free unmitigated access to firearms for those that can qualify as worthy of the responsibility, because used appropriately that right can very well lead to the other. Unfortunately I do not believe that is what we have currently.

I believe such untolerable crimes as this one are a result of that.

Our society has much more important questions to be asking itself than whether or not firearms or video games were somehow the answer to solving this problem. Whether or not that takes place I believe we all know the answer to already.
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Where exactly are these places in America where a firearm is a requirement for safety? I

have lived in some bad ass places in Canada, like 427 and Finch, Rexdale, and the west end of Toronto. NOT ONCE have I ever felt I needed a firearm to be safe. Surely the US isn't such a drastically different place, so why exactly is it that people in the US need a firearm to feel safe?

I know that if I ever felt that I needed a firearm to feel safe, I would move.
 
If someone on campus had a gun, used that gun, and killed two people, I'd be closing down the school. Isolated incident or not, look what happened. A college of how many students, about 30,000? I don't care if it's as large as Ohio State or as small as my private school with 3500. If there's a shooting on campus, you cancel all classes and inform everyone you can immediately. It's okay to cause panic people. Panic makes them hide.

On NPR they had a VT student on the phone. She had been walking by the Norris (sp?) building during the second shooting. She said she had no idea about the first one. How scary is that?
 
Silent.Sin said:
There had to have been many many people who saw the shooter before he wound up in Norris hall some two hours later as well. Granted, people didn't know what to be looking for because the police failed to get witnesses' descriptions out to the media, but how many times do we have to learn to look out for suspicious activities?
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Oh yes, let's look out for suspicious activities. :eek:

Well, what qualifies as suspicious? :confused:

Jack Thompson would report YOU if he saw you playing Counter-Strike :rolleyes: What about a college-aged person sneaking around corners? He could be playing a prank, or a group game. And Muslims praying on a plane? Reporting that isn't just paranoid, IMO it's almost as bad as a hate crime.

Terrorism is succeeding in damaging this country every time it convinces someone that 'we need to look out for suspicious activities.' Habitually suspicious people believe that since a lot of others are up to no good, it's okay to give up rights and freedoms, and let the government hassle people at will.
 
the entire nation grieves?

Are you kidding me? Do you know how many Iraqi civillians die each day? Do you know what's going on Darfur right now? Do you morn for them? Have you done anything for these people???

As long as we continue to think American lives are more valuable then other peoples lives then this country is in for a very very rude awakening. You thought the 11th of September was bad hu?

This is unfortunate. Just as unfortuante as the attitude of this country to the rest of the world. Mark my words this country is in for sooo much worse. Just wait and see.

May these victims and all victims around the world rest in peace.
 
Draax said:
Where exactly are these places in America where a firearm is a requirement for safety? I

have lived in some bad ass places in Canada, like 427 and Finch, Rexdale, and the west end of Toronto. NOT ONCE have I ever felt I needed a firearm to be safe. Surely the US isn't such a drastically different place, so why exactly is it that people in the US need a firearm to feel safe?

I know that if I ever felt that I needed a firearm to feel safe, I would move.
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Tell that to the 20 folks shot at Dawson College in Montreal last September… or the 14 engineering students killed at the Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal in 1989… speak loud as the dead have problems hearing you talk.
 
cornfield said:
the entire nation grieves?

Are you kidding me? Do you know how many Iraqi civillians die each day? Do you know what's going on Darfur right now? Do you morn for them? Have you done anything for these people???

As long as we continue to think American lives are more valuable then other peoples lives then this country is in for a very very rude awakening. You thought the 11th of September was bad hu?

This is unfortunate. Just as unfortuante as the attitude of this country to the rest of the world. Mark my words this country is in for sooo much worse. Just wait and see.

May these victims and all victims around the world rest in peace.
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:rolleyes:

Thanks sunshine... you forgot to add the obligatory it is Bush's fault.
 
Draax said:
Where exactly are these places in America where a firearm is a requirement for safety? I

have lived in some bad ass places in Canada, like 427 and Finch, Rexdale, and the west end of Toronto. NOT ONCE have I ever felt I needed a firearm to be safe. Surely the US isn't such a drastically different place, so why exactly is it that people in the US need a firearm to feel safe?

I know that if I ever felt that I needed a firearm to feel safe, I would move.
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Firearm deaths in Canada don't even begin to compare with those in America. Everyone knows that. Haven't you seen bowling for Columbine? :confused:

I don't feel I need a firearm to be safe myself, but I definitely feel like I'm better equipped to deal with a wider range of scenarios much more confidently.

I don't set out of the house thinking, Oh wow some psycho might randomly open fire today I'd better grab my gun. I'd hardly know it's there to be honest, however were a situation to arise and I needed to help someone along to their next life it'd be within my range of abilities to concievably do this.

As I understand it, a badass place in Canada = a place where you are likely to get your ass kicked if you don't act right.

Bad ass places in Houston I've lived I think definitely constituted life threatening conditions and yes, I have moved. Hell, I know there are neighborhoods in California you can drive through where the first thing that'd cross your mind is "damn I could get shot!"

I drove through a neighborhood just out of DC that felt that way, Philly too.

I dunno bout Canada, I've never spent much time there other than Blackcomb. Thanks btw for sharing your lovely mountain with us.
 
cornfield said:
the entire nation grieves?

Are you kidding me? Do you know how many Iraqi civillians die each day? Do you know what's going on Darfur right now? Do you morn for them? Have you done anything for these people???

As long as we continue to think American lives are more valuable then other peoples lives then this country is in for a very very rude awakening. You thought the 11th of September was bad hu?

This is unfortunate. Just as unfortuante as the attitude of this country to the rest of the world. Mark my words this country is in for sooo much worse. Just wait and see.

May these victims and all victims around the world rest in peace.
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It's wrong to place more value in the people of one's country than those of another? Are we not busting our asses, risking many of our soldiers' lives, and furthering our national debt for other countries?

Mark your own words. No one cares, especially in this thread.
 
Teknikallysekure said:
Firearm deaths in Canada don't even begin to compare with those in America. Everyone knows that. Haven't you seen bowling for Columbine? :confused:

I don't feel I need a firearm to be safe myself, but I definitely feel like I'm better equipped to deal with a wider range of scenarios much more confidently.

I don't set out of the house thinking, Oh wow some psycho might randomly open fire today I'd better grab my gun. I'd hardly know it's there to be honest, however were a situation to arise and I needed to help someone along to their next life it'd be within my range of abilities to concievably do this.

As I understand it, a badass place in Canada = a place where you are likely to get your ass kicked if you don't act right.

Bad ass places in Houston I've lived I think definitely constituted life threatening conditions and yes, I have moved. Hell, I know there are neighborhoods in California you can drive through where the first thing that'd cross your mind is "damn I could get shot!"

I drove through a neighborhood just out of DC that felt that way, Philly too.

I dunno bout Canada, I've never spent much time there other than Blackcomb. Thanks btw for sharing your lovely mountain with us.
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Actually with the exception of murder the United States violent crime rates are lower than much of Europe and parts of Canada. Even when you remove gun deaths we have more per capita murders that Canada or Europe.

You are far more likely to be robbed, mugged, burgled, beat up, or have your home invaded in England or Scotland than in the US.
 
GJSNeptune said:
It's wrong to place more value in the people of one's country than those of another? Are we not busting our asses, risking many of our soldiers' lives, and furthering our national debt for other countries?

Mark your own words. No one cares, especially in this thread.
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Believe it or not, some people do indeed see all human lives equally as valuable.


That is, until someone is up in my shit. Then it's time for hell.

Busting our asses, risking our soldiers lives and furthering our national debt for other countries?

I don't know where that came from man, that's definitely one of the more interesting statements I've ever heard anyone make.

I don't intend to change the direction of this thread into such a trite political discussion however. Many lost their lives today, I believe that would be disrespectful.
 
Max Mike said:
Actually with the exception of murder the United States violent crime rates are lower than much of Europe and parts of Canada. Even when you remove gun deaths we have more per capita murders that Canada or Europe.

You are far more likely to be robbed, mugged, burgled, beat up, or have your home invaded in England or Scotland than in the US.
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I understand and agree with that, my argument was in favor of the US citizen's mentality and drive/desire to leave their home armed.

Last I was in Germany their homes were built like damn fortresses with steel shades all over all the windows(looked good too) and steel storm doors.

I don't know how any burglars make a living over there.
 
Male vs Female
german vs jew
black vs white
Japan vs North Korea
toyota vs Honda
microsoft vs apple
ps3 vs xbox360
short vs tall
fat vs thin
etc vs etc

The list is huge. Put a group of humans in a room for some time and they will divide themselves into factions.

For humans to understand that we are one and the same it would have to be us (humans) vs Martians or something like that.

6.5 billion people divided by race culture nationality as well as many other abstract things. I understand it is easier for you to try and ridicule me.

I am fortunate enough to have grown up on 3 continents I realise what many of you do not. We all bleed and we are all one and the same. I'm american and I'm not a "terrorist" and this is my opinion weather you like it or not.
 
Teknikallysekure said:
I understand and agree with that, my argument was in favor of the US citizen's mentality and drive/desire to leave their home armed.

Last I was in Germany their homes were built like damn fortresses with steel shades all over all the windows(looked good too) and steel storm doors.

I don't know how any burglars make a living over there.
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Oh I agree with you…

This is not really about guns anyway as guns were far more available in the 50s, 60s, and even the 70 and school incidents were rare. I know I used to take guns to high school in the 70s because some of us used to shoot after school, the administration knew and did not care. This was not uncommon in many places then and again schools shootings were rare.

I don’t know what happen to make some people think this was a acceptable way to address grievances.

For those that think CCW is a bad idea in schools… picture today and instead 4 terrorist armed with automatic weapons doing this… The Beslan massacre ring any bells.
 
Shark-MegaByte said:
Oh yes, let's look out for suspicious activities. :eek:

Well, what qualifies as suspicious? :confused:

Jack Thompson would report YOU if he saw you playing Counter-Strike :rolleyes: What about a college-aged person sneaking around corners? He could be playing a prank, or a group game. And Muslims praying on a plane? Reporting that isn't just paranoid, IMO it's almost as bad as a hate crime.
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Sorry that was poor explanation on my part. I was speaking more of the heightened sense we should have considering the bomb threats along with the first shooting. This guy knew to chain up the doors and obviously had a good idea of what he was doing. Did he know anyone else here? Did anyone else notice/consider him planning this? These are the "suspsicious activities" I was talking about. These are the same things the parents of the many high school shootings could have looked for. Maybe that's too much responsibility for a peer to have but man it would have been nice to know if anyone else knew this kid and that he had made mention of it before.
 
My question is this: When a felon escaped from a hospital killing a guard and deputy they shut down the school until he was found correct?

Why on earth after two people shot on the school grounds did they let school continue while he was still at large? They had it locked down then they lifted it? It boggles my minds especially since it occurred in the dorms. I don't know if it would make a difference in the end but I think it could have. The situation could have been handled better. I also didn't like watching that cell phone recording of the incident. You sit there and for several minutes you hear the gun going off and off and off and the police sitting outside trying to figure out how to breach the building and it took a long time before they finally did.

It's really a shame and I wish it didn't happen. it makes me want to vomit when people somehow think their best course of action when their g/f or teacher pisses them off is to shoot everyone n the area. And honestly I don't know what could truly be done here to prevent that because things like this is so random and thoughtless it almost impossible to predict.
 
Can you imagine the gigantic coincidence if the first shooting was unrelated and a different person? This is simply surreal absurdity.
 
GJSNeptune said:
Can you imagine the gigantic coincidence if the first shooting was unrelated and a different person? This is simply surreal absurdity.
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Oddly enough that was the first thing I thought. I do however imagine it's going to bode unwell for the staff responsible for the safety of the students either way.
 
Yeah....well then you can figure that the second shooter took advantage of the distracted police force to do what he had to do it could have been planned for a later time and the opportunity happened to present itself and he unfortunately seized it.

Overall so far the press conference is a real eye opener. It does answer some of my criticism since I can understand that you wouldn't shut down a 40,000 person campus for a domestic murder just like you don't shut down like a hotel when a murder happens there you only isolate the immediate area. But given how they reacted to the incident with the escaped convict I kinda don't understand why they didn't do the same for this incident.

The press is definitely being relentless. The police chief is not being to helpful.
 
Actually I am surprised at the seeming lack of security cameras in these buildings. Even at the main entrance a camera could have been useful especially seeing someone chain up the doors that would seem strange.
 
Silent.Sin said:
I was speaking more of the heightened sense we should have considering the bomb threats along with the first shooting. This guy knew to chain up the doors and obviously had a good idea of what he was doing. Did he know anyone else here? Did anyone else notice/consider him planning this? These are the "suspsicious activities" I was talking about.
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Wow. I didn't hear about the chained doors part yet. Yeah, even I'd be alerting somebody about that; that's a violation of fire codes and unsafe all around.
 
next-Jin said:
Are you ******* serious? That's even more out in left field then blaming videogames. Do not be a complete idiot and bring stupid **** like that up. This is a serious issue and saying that makes you look...... screw it, it's not even worth agruing over, your a ******* moron.
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Wow, that apparently just sailed waaay over your head. :rolleyes:
 
stabilep said:
Actually I am surprised at the seeming lack of security cameras in these buildings. Even at the main entrance a camera could have been useful especially seeing someone chain up the doors that would seem strange.
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I work on a community college campus that seems well-covered by security cameras, but I doubt the feeds are watched very well in real-time. When you have a lot of cameras going, you'd have to hire a lot of people to keep an eye on them, and 99.9% of the time, unfortunately, that's a waste of money. What cameras are mostly good for is identifying someone after they've already done something wrong, which wouldn't have helped all these victims

rayman2k2 said:
Still can't get in contact with this guy, none of my friends can either :(
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Rayman, this stuff probably screwed up his day even if he is perfectly okay, and he's probably been on the phone with his mom for half the day. Mine definitely would wear out my cell battery if an incident happened somewhere she knew I was likely to be.

We are with you hoping and praying he's all right, but meanwhile, try not to melt your own stomach down from thinking about the worst case scenario.
 
I just watched Paula Zahn CUT OFF THE KID WHO SHOT THE CELL PHONE VIDEO.

She asked him, live, if he was "outraged" that authorities didn't do a better job to inform students of the first murders.

He TRIED to respond -- "I think the cops -- the VA Tech cops -- did the best job that they could..."

And before he could finish, she CUT HIM OFF. CNN did NOT want to show a student saying NICE THINGS about the VA Tech cops.

I'm going to say this and let the discussion go. I have a damned good feeling that the VA Tech cops did the best that they could given that they were trying to solve a crime in a campus of 25K+ students. Hindsight is 20/20, and we'll probably see the cops, the administration, etc. villified by the media, public outcry, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Nancy Pelosi, Bert and Ernie, and god knows who else.

But to cut off this NICE kid (Jamal something I can't spell) on LIVE TV to MILLIONS when he tried to DEFEND those poor overwhelmed campus cops -- disgraceful. The producer in the booth had to SHUT Paula Zahn up when the kid INSISTED, in the cutaway, that he be allowed to finish what he was saying.

He wished his friends and fellow students the best and noted that he hoped everyone who wasn't accounted for was OK.

CNN -- you suck. This is gonna be a media circus.

Run with it...

IronChefMorimoto
 
If you know people at VT, and you haven't already, you should check Facebook if they have it. I know two people from my university who are at VT now for grad school in engineering. I saw their Facebook profiles and others are commenting and saying they're glad they're okay. If you can't get through with a phone, it's another good way to check.
 
IronChefMorimoto said:
I just watched Paula Zahn CUT OFF THE KID WHO SHOT THE CELL PHONE VIDEO.

She asked him, live, if he was "outraged" that authorities didn't do a better job to inform students of the first murders.

He TRIED to respond -- "I think the cops -- the VA Tech cops -- did the best job that they could..."

And before he could finish, she CUT HIM OFF. CNN did NOT want to show a student saying NICE THINGS about the VA Tech cops.

I'm going to say this and let the discussion go. I have a damned good feeling that the VA Tech cops did the best that they could given that they were trying to solve a crime in a campus of 25K+ students. Hindsight is 20/20, and we'll probably see the cops, the administration, etc. villified by the media, public outcry, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Nancy Pelosi, Bert and Ernie, and god knows who else.

But to cut off this NICE kid (Jamal something I can't spell) on LIVE TV to MILLIONS when he tried to DEFEND those poor overwhelmed campus cops -- disgraceful. The producer in the booth had to SHUT Paula Zahn up when the kid INSISTED, in the cutaway, that he be allowed to finish what he was saying.

He wished his friends and fellow students the best and noted that he hoped everyone who wasn't accounted for was OK.

CNN -- you suck. This is gonna be a media circus.

Run with it...

IronChefMorimoto
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liberal media.
 
Bobby FLAY is WAY cooler by THE way.


This is about the VT shootings, not the biased media. Let's try to focus and spend our thoughts on the victims, their friends, family, and everyone else.
 
GJSNeptune said:
Can you imagine the gigantic coincidence if the first shooting was unrelated and a different person? This is simply surreal absurdity.
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If it's two different people, then the VA Tech cops just had a really really g'damned bad day. Plain and simple. 'cause if they were tied up dealing with a murder -- which probably doesn't happen much for campus cops -- in a dormitory, I seriously f---ing doubt they had the resources to canvas a campus of 25K+ and be prepared for another unrelated random shooting.

The president and police chief are completely overwhelmed. The police chief is flabbergasted and/or just not competent -- NOT INCOMPETENT -- enough to comprehend what's going on. What just happened in his backyard.

You guys gotta remember --- long-time university employees like this often have kids of their own at the school. It's a benefit in some cases -- 100% tuition reimbursement for dependents. There's no telling if the men this guy commands or if the administration members themselves have kids that were affected/killed/injured/etc. They may be actings as parents in addition to the campus roles.

It's sad that the media is harping on the time difference in the notification of the students. Yes, it probably was a fatal error, but with a college campus, you have to think that these people (the cops/administration) do work in a vacuum of sorts and were probably overwhelmed.

IronChefMorimoto
 
IronChefMorimoto said:
If it's two different people, then the VA Tech cops just had a really really g'damned bad day. Plain and simple. 'cause if they were tied up dealing with a murder -- which probably doesn't happen much for campus cops -- in a dormitory, I seriously f---ing doubt they had the resources to canvas a campus of 25K+ and be prepared for another unrelated random shooting.

The president and police chief are completely overwhelmed. The police chief is flabbergasted and/or just not competent -- NOT INCOMPETENT -- enough to comprehend what's going on. What just happened in his backyard.

You guys gotta remember --- long-time university employees like this often have kids of their own at the school. It's a benefit in some cases -- 100% tuition reimbursement for dependents. There's no telling if the men this guy commands or if the administration members themselves have kids that were affected/killed/injured/etc. They may be actings as parents in addition to the campus roles.

It's sad that the media is harping on the time difference in the notification of the students. Yes, it probably was a fatal error, but with a college campus, you have to think that these people (the cops/administration) do work in a vacuum of sorts and were probably overwhelmed.

IronChefMorimoto
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The bias is so thick it's disgusting. The police are always wrong according to the media, when was the last time you saw a report on the police doing something good? Or, how about the last time you saw a news article, or report about someone using a gun to defend them self?
 
GJSNeptune said:
Bobby FLAY is WAY cooler by THE way.


This is about the VT shootings, not the biased media. Let's try to focus and spend our thoughts on the victims, their friends, family, and everyone else.
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Oh please -- this was not a post about biased media. I'm seeing this sort of silliness on ALL stations -- not just CNN. I feel badly for the families, and I cited the CNN mess as an example.

I worked at a university for 6 years out of college, and I will tell you that, right now, the finger pointing doesn't help. And this kid on TV was trying to give a shoutout to parents and students and his friends to let them know that the "community" on campus was still trucking along.

I hope that, after 48 hours or so of this "media circus" that some real information can come out and that the VA Tech students can come together without interruption to deal with this mess. In the meantime, prepare to have your stomach turned as the media makes this all the more worse for the people involved.

As for Bobby Flay -- he got his culinary degree from SALLY STRUTHERS. ;)

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