Whats wrong with TN panels?

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d3viant

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
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IN the hunt for a monitor !!! Whats wrong with TN panels that most people
try to aviod? Is it just the viewing angles thats a problem or is it more to it ? Frankly
I just look at monitor straight on im not under my desk lookin up at my monitor.

Whats the best TN Panel out there?
 
Some initiative more please...
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1039222

You get what you pay, cheap and good are two different things.
Only thing in which they're best is input lag which is generally very small which is important for gaming (high lag means image comes delayed compared to game events), in everything else other panel types "wipe toilet seat" with TNs.

Both viewing angles and colours aren't good. TN panels mostly having only 6 bit colours (blue, green and red subpixels each have only 64 shades) makes good colours rather impossible. (don't trust ads, 6 bit + 2bit FRC cheat quickly changes to 8bits in them) Also despite of claims being fastest TNs can actually have same or worse ghosting than best VAs.



Left one is TN and right S-PVA: (select viewing angles from step 3 menu if it doesn't shot that)
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=36&mo1=245&p1=2334&ma2=36&mo2=233&p2=2157&ph=8
So even from directly ahead bottom might look brighter and top darker... and actually old laptop's 15.1" panel barely had point from where whole screen looked uniform. (new laptop clearly has VA or IPS panel, also it shows bright and especially dark shades unlike old)
 
The best way I can explain what is wrong with TN pannels is like this: If you have a solid backgroung color and are looking at it from front and center of the display, you will not see an even color across the screen. It will be one color in the middle and another at the edges. This happens because your eye is looking at the edges from a slight angle. This effect depends on how close you are to the screen, but you will see it, unless you are several feet away. To me TN pannels look just like laptops did back in the bad old days.

The best advice anyone can give you is go to BestBuy or CurcitCity and look at the LCDs on display. Then you will be able to see for yourself. Reading specs does not tell you as much as actually looking at the pannel in person.

Best of luck

Dave
 
Depends on your use. If your gaming a TN isn't so bad. But for photos its pretty sucky. Colors are washed and weak compred to S-IPS - some colors dont even show up (dithering uses as well usually). Here are some pics comparing my NEC 90GX2 (TN and a good one) to my NEC 20WMGX2 (AS-IPS). Notice the weaker colors, the missing detail in dark areas and the viewing angles. The S-IPS is more window like and I am less aware of even looking "at" a monitor as opposed to through one (seems like). Both monitors were at 50% brightness and contrast and default color settings. Both were new the same week. The TN is on the left. The AS-IPS was naturally brighter and needed to be turned down more than the TN. If I calibrated/tweaked both monitors the 20WMGX2 would have left the TN in the dust even more. It has great range while the TN is narrow.










As I said though if your gaming a TN is ok. Gamers are lucky that way
 
I have to disagree for FPS/ 3D gaming. If you look up and/ or down in the game, the brightness changes due to the verticle shift. In dark games especially, it can be a major distraction.
 
my dell E22 (TN) has horribad back light bleed. its probably the worst I've seen.
 
I'm having the same hassle choosing a decent LCD for a projector.
I cant believe the mess the LCD market is with some unnacceptable quality LCDs being marketed.

I think I have finally found the best compromise at 19" with the Iiyama ProLite E1902WS 1440 x960, 1000:1 contrast ratio.
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/133696
Its a P-MVA panel which uses the 24bit colour quality of the slower MVA panel and speeds it up to 2ms gray to gray so its good for gaming as well.
There can be a slight loss of colour quality using a tweaked panel but its nowhere near as bad as an 18bit TN panel.

I was originally considering the Viewsonic VX1940w
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/136891
This LCD is almost awesome as it is fast, 1680 res (the highest for 19"), has HDCP, 1000:1 static contrast ratio but is only 6 bits per colour TN.
All the decent reviews say that grays look green or brown coloured and there is a lot of detail lost on darker scenes.

There is very little choice at 19" screen size but bigger screen sizes have quite a lot of quality LCDs if you search carefully.
Look for fast versions of IPS, PVA or MVA panels.
They quite often are referenced as S-IPS, P-MVA and S-PVA.
S-IPS is the best if you can find them fast enough for gaming.
Read reviews of the chosen LCD as well.

This thread is MIGHTY helpful !!!
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1039222
Many thanks to wonkman for posting it :)
 
Nenu said:
I think I have finally found the best compromise at 19" with the Iiyama ProLite E1902WS 1440 x960, 1000:1 contrast ratio.
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/133696
Its a P-MVA panel which uses the 24bit colour quality of the slower MVA panel and speeds it up to 2ms gray to gray so its good for gaming as well.
There can be a slight loss of colour quality using a tweaked panel but its nowhere near as bad as an 18bit TN panel.
Click to expand...

That's a TN.

I don't know of a single 1440x900 non TN display.

As for what's wrong with TN, basically everything is.
Only thing they have going for them is response time, which is a non-issue for me, as i don't see ghosting anyways.
 
What about input lag? From what I have seen, most non-TN panels are over 30ms lag, which for me is unacceptable. I don't want to sacrifice color though. I AM LOST!
 
Jollten said:
What about input lag? From what I have seen, most non-TN panels are over 30ms lag, which for me is unacceptable. I don't want to sacrifice color though. I AM LOST!
Click to expand...

Yep, the manufacturers have milked us for ages with dodgy products.
I too cannot get what I need and will have to make a sacrifice as I cannot go bigger than 19".
That will either be lesser colour quality or lower resolution and maybe higher lag as you pointed out.
Roll on Laser TV/Projectors and hope they sink LCDs for good!!!
 
The only thing right with a TN screen is the price. Unless it's the new Dell 22" Peasant Under Glass model, as it fails the 'at least it's cheap test'.

From a technical and usage perspective TN is just wrong. Inaccurate color reproduction, horrid viewing angles which aggravate the poor color. Crap. It's crap tech with a snappy slogan.

TN sucks! So does *VA and IPS. But they suck a little less.

TN is the Walmart of display tech. It's all about the price. And the marketing.

6 bit color for crying out loud. Wide Gamut 6 bit color. Whoop Dee Feakin' Doo! It's the 21st century already. 8 bit color should be the minimum allowed for cellphones, not a computer monitor. It's 2008, not 1998. Where's the OLED, SED, the laser tech they promised? (And the flying cars, let's not forget the flying cars they promised.)

We should all make a vow to go back to our 17" CRT displays and not purchase a single pig-lipstick screen until they fix this LCD mess.
 
clockdogg said:
We should all make a vow to go back to our 17" CRT displays and not purchase a single pig-lipstick screen until they fix this LCD mess.
Click to expand...
I would like much more the idea of cramming TN panels to rears of BS... err PR departments!


d3viant said:
That samsung 245T looks good.
Click to expand...
Except that for some reason input lag is just horrible, nearly double that of competiting models like Dell 2407WFP-HC or Benq FP241W: 42ms at minimum and average near 60ms. (select delay compared to CRT from step 3 menu)
I'm myself looking 22" Lenovo L220x (1920x1200 and 92% gamut S-PVA) and it has 15-47ms lag with average of 29ms (just three of 18 measures were above 32ms) which is on better end of VAs.


vick1000 said:
I have to disagree for FPS/ 3D gaming. If you look up and/ or down in the game, the brightness changes due to the verticle shift. In dark games especially, it can be a major distraction.
Click to expand...
Actually at DreamHack I didn't see a single display showing TN's viewing angle symptoms and all PCs in booths of companies (Asus, Intel, Razer...) were there for gaming.
I guess none of them wanted to get bad reputation from TN panels. :p
 
E.T said:
Actually at DreamHack I didn't see a single display showing TN's viewing angle symptoms and all PCs in booths of companies (Asus, Intel, Razer...) were there for gaming.
I guess none of them wanted to get bad reputation from TN panels. :p
Click to expand...
Yeah, but that's in Denmark. Everything is classier there. Even the TN monitors! If only B&K made LCD panels, none of us would suffer from TNitus.
 
After more research, the SyncMaster 971P looks pretty good for 19"
Its claimed to be a PVA, 1500:1, 8mS, 24bit colour, 1280x1024 res.
Test results show that the non dynamic contrast ratio is between 600:1 and 1417:1 which is excellent.
The response time is good enough for gaming and movies too.
Looking at the graphs on the third page, the response times are mostly around 10mS.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/19inch-7_23.html#sect0
(3 pages)

There is an old and new version, the newer being better (as mentioned in the above review).
The old version is called SyncMaster 971P PXHV, whereas the new one is the XXHV
The sad thing is I cant find the new one in the UK.
If anyone knows where I can get one or a good alternative please say, thanks :)
 
Lot of shops with that Samsung on other side of "Channel", also you can select from two colours.
http://geizhals.at/eu/?cat=monlcd18
(I've myself used this shop many times for digicam equipment)


clockdogg said:
Yeah, but that's in Denmark. Everything is classier there. Even the TN monitors!
Click to expand...
Back to school to studying geography... Jönköping is in Sweden.
And while control electronics specifically made for giving good colours might correct some of that problem that won't help to viewing angle problems of TN. (more accurate colours just would make it probably more evident)
 
Thanks for that, I'll check that shop when I'm buying other stuff too.
Sadly everywhere has the older version of the 971P as they all quote a contrast ratio of 1500:1.
The new one has dynamic contrast and is quoted as 3000:1 or 4000:1 depending how much hype they use to sell it :)
It is also 1500:1 really.

Well, I just had a bizarre thing happen when I phoned Samsung about the LCD.
While on hold there was a message which said that ANY information given to them WILL be passed on to their partners etc. (cant remember the exact words)
Then they wouldnt let me speak to anyone unless I gave them all my details including post code and insisted I had to tell them!
Subsequently I decided I didnt need to speak to them any more.
I have asked a shop to try and get a price for the LCD instead :)

I've also found another 19" LCD suitable for a projector
Acer AL1952
Its 8 ms (g2g), "PVA" with 1300:1 contrast ratio and 24bit colour.
Nearly as good as the 971P and a little cheaper.

Yippee, it looks like this project might actually get off the ground.

Edit:
I found the proper part code for the new Samsung 971P, its LS19MBXXHV in case anyone needs it :)
Lots of these for sale lol.
 
TN panels are 'good' for most people. Here at the [H] we tend to demand a little more from a product because we know there is better technology out there. You get what you pay for.
 
Hopefully that's true. I once paid for a Dell S-IPS panel and got sent a S-PVA panel jimmy-swapped in.
 
theNoid said:
TN panels are 'good' for most people. Here at the [H] we tend to demand a little more from a product because we know there is better technology out there. You get what you pay for, if you research it first.
Click to expand...


Fixed.
 
OK - so if someone is looking for a non-TN panel (b/c I do some graphic design work) over 20"s, it looks like the only option is a 24" since all 22" are TN, right?

So what non-TN 24" monitors are there? And what ones are most highly recomended? I find this forum sort of hard to navigate, b/c the threads are generally monitor model specific, and incredibly detailed, which is nice, but for someone trying to get the lay of the land it is hard.

So what 24" non-TN monitors do people suggest?

Thanks!
 
TheNewGuy8 said:
So what 24" non-TN monitors do people suggest?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Alrighty, then, the Dogg's Top 10. Let's do your homework:

#1: with a gold bullet: NEC LCD2490WUXi - Awesome IPS panel. The graphic pro monitor of choice. Will take a little over an ounce of gold to buy it. If I was spending your money, this would be it.
Specs: http://www.prad.de/en/guide/screen3514.html

#2: NEC LCD2470WNX - S-PVA panel. For slightly less than an ounce of gold .
Specs: http://www.prad.de/en/guide/screen3744.html

#3: BenQ 241W - P-MVA panel. A good all round monitor for $500. If you can still find one.
Specs: http://www.prad.de/en/guide/screen2735.html

#4: Viewsonic VX2435WM - MVA Panel. A decent unit, if over-priced. Get one while it still exists.
Specs: http://www.prad.de/en/guide/screen3588.html

#5: LG Flatron L245WP - P-MVA panel. Gets good ratings. If you can find one. Soon to be extinct like the 241W.
Specs: http://www.prad.de/en/guide/screen3510.html

#6: HP LP2465 - S-PVA panel. Same panel as the old Dell 2407. If the price is right...Don't pay MSP. Eeek!
Specs: http://www.prad.de/en/guide/screen3015.html

#7: Dell 2407WFP-HC - S-PVA Wide Gamut panel. Wide Gamut maybe good or not depending on the graphics you do. Has inverse ghosting issues with games. Again, don't pay retail.
Specs: http://www.prad.de/en/guide/screen3974.html

#8: SAMSUNG 245T - S-PVA Wide Gamut panel. Wide Gamut maybe good or not depending on the graphics you do. Price seems to be dropping.
Specs: http://www.prad.de/en/guide/screen4154.html

#9: Westinghouse L2410NM - MVA panel. It's $399.00 and not a TN. Some Q/C issues, but they're included in the price.
Specs: It's $399.00 and not a TN.

#10. SOYO DYLM24D6 24" LCD - PVA/MVA panel. Not TN and $299.00, if you can still find one at OfficeMax.
Hard F Spec: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1215729

This is a good starting list. It might be the ending list if the TN cabal gets its way with the distribution system.

Happy Hunting!
 
one thing, cheaper = TN, expensive = IPS and PVA
if you are gonna get PVA or IPS get a HDTV instead you get more inches and better colors and contrast hehe, most monitors are for text and stuff so?

i have a 40" 1080p HDTV in the living room. its the best pc screen in the house lol :rolleyes:
it has 2x HDMI (aka 1x DVI + 1 HDMI or 2x DVI)
 
TheNewGuy8 said:
OK - so if someone is looking for a non-TN panel (b/c I do some graphic design work) over 20"s, it looks like the only option is a 24" since all 22" are TN, right?

So what non-TN 24" monitors are there? And what ones are most highly recomended? I find this forum sort of hard to navigate, b/c the threads are generally monitor model specific, and incredibly detailed, which is nice, but for someone trying to get the lay of the land it is hard.

So what 24" non-TN monitors do people suggest?

Thanks!
Click to expand...


There's still the 23" Apple Cinema Display.
 
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