What you heard are the pre-production rumors. Both FP241W and WZ are all using A-MVA panels. Some reviewer and a hardforum poster actually disassembled a WZ to confirm that. Also in the NCIX's FP241W and WZ weblinks, they specially specify both are using A-MVA panels.
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Why isn't there a perfect 24 inch LCD?
- Thread starter CastorTroy
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What you heard are the pre-production rumors. Both FP241W and WZ are all using A-MVA panels. Some reviewer and a hardforum poster actually disassembled a WZ to confirm that. Also in the NCIX's FP241W and WZ weblinks, they specially specify both are using A-MVA panels.
The real truth is just that most people are not that discerning. To me the difference is like that between night and day. There are great 24" screens. 24" iMacs have an excellent 24 IPS screen. I was checking one out the other day. There is the NEC 2490 as well. Frankly these should be the norm in my opinion. Why we have to pay top dollar just to rid of a bunch of LCD anomalies in TN/VA screens is very annoying. We didn't have to deal with this in CRTs.
I have a TN sitting in front of me right now. Here is what is wrong if you are the slightest bit discerning:
1: Banding. Banding is prevalent on TN panels, 6bit color is hard to expand to 8 bits without banding. Mine has it. I get annoyed playing some games not knowing which is at fault, the game or my monitor, but either way banding sucks and my monitor adds it.
2: FRC jitters. To minimize banding they do the time based color shift, but some pattern freak out the FRC and jump around. Though this is minor compared to other issues.
3: Very poor vertical viewing angles. I can tolerate this most of the time, but when I use my monitor standing up and it goes to hell, or if I try to do any serious image correction on it which is just about impossible because the tone is shifting all over the screen.
Bottom line: Just because you are blind or don't care, don't condemn those of who have eyesight and do care, to TN screens. The gulf between TN and S-IPS is a huge one. It is night and day if you actually notice/care about image quality.
Finally here is a screen shot of my TN screen shot straight on from viewing position. Notice anything strange? Hint: that is not a gradient it is a solid tone. Notice the difference in the two TR logos? What if this was an image and you are trying to balance shadow detail?
Michaelius
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I notice mostly badly chosen viewing position.
Battl3fr0nt
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Check out the LG 24, I can't find anything wrong with mine..
Meh, for all the complaints on color, I honestly don't give a crap. All I want is an undisputed VX924-equivalent (in input lag) for 24". My order is:
1) Input lag is KING. It better have none.
2) Inputs
3) Color fidelity/viewing angles...frankly far less important as first two.
Wake me up when there is progress on input lag, as there is nothing more important than that.
1) Input lag is KING. It better have none.
2) Inputs
3) Color fidelity/viewing angles...frankly far less important as first two.
Wake me up when there is progress on input lag, as there is nothing more important than that.
I agree input lag can be frustrating but sometimes it is hard to tell if it is input lag or low frame rate because they both will make the mouse movement feels sluggish.
Is it correct to assume that more the image-processing (scaling or color correction) higher the input lag? If that is the case then if the monitor has 1:1 pixel mapping option then it should lower the input lag once it is selected?
It's definitely not frame rate - I'm talking about CS:S here. I did try 1:1, but I found that it only really helps at lower resolutions (e.g. 1280x720 1:1 or lower). With 1920x1200 1:1, there was a noticeable lag. And again, it's not frame-rate b/c I drop everything to low for online play. So either play with minimal (but still >35ms input lag) @ 720p, or get massive (>50ms) lag with the higher resolutions.
Ideally 1:1 for all resolutions would have the same input lag, but that's definitely not the case. Heck, even more ideally is that scaled resolutions or 1:1 would have the same input lag - and hopefully that input lag is as close to 0ms as possible.
All that's left is nostalgia...of the days when input lag wasn't even an issue, with our shitty flickering CRTs lol.
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Finally here is a screen shot of my TN screen shot straight on from viewing position. Notice anything strange? Hint: that is not a gradient it is a solid tone. Notice the difference in the two TR logos? What if this was an image and you are trying to balance shadow detail?
You should post the link for above picture and see what everyone else's looks like. The top off of picture looks much darker in gradient and I don't think narrow viewing angles would do something like that. It must be defected.
No, its not defective. I own two TN panels, and I've spent plenty of hours on other people's TN's. They are all like that. Every single last one of them. The website he was viewing seems to have changed their background since the picture.
You are mistaken.
1: This is not a gradient. It was one smooth tone. I have a CRT sitting next to the LCD and it was evident if you viewed the web page on it. I didn't keep a copy of the web page and TR has since changed their page. But I am sure I can find the right shade if anyone has serious doubts. Any mid-tone will do. Mid tones are nice because there is room to shift in both directions.
2: My monitor is not defective. I have examined dozens of monitors. All TN Screens do this. People who know LCD tech, are aware of this. This is only news to those who don't understand the differences between different panel types.
Now, if you take the picture from across the room you wont see the shift because your angle shift top to bottom becomes very small. I held the camera right at my viewing position. Somewhere around 2 feet from the monitor and at this distance they angles between top/bottom are getting large enough to make the shift clearly visible.
This makes TN monitors completely unsuitable for imaging work where you are going to make any kind of local tone adjustments. Again, this is not news to people who know their LCD technology.
I just thought I would illustrate the point for those who don't understand.
1. Holy cow! I didn't know TN panel has such narrow vertical viewing angles. That is like Sony's LCD projection TV.
2. So the new 24" iMac use S-IPS panels? No wonder they look so good. Who makes them for iMac?
3. Does anyone know what kind of panel is Sharp 92 series (ie 52") LCD TV use? I was checking it out in a store and was telling my wife that through its 176-176 viewing angles, there was actually no visible color change, just like plasma or CRT TV. The store emplyee said the 52" LCD panels in all 62, 64, 82, 92 series are the same type of LCD panel. Is that true?
2. So the new 24" iMac use S-IPS panels? No wonder they look so good. Who makes them for iMac?
3. Does anyone know what kind of panel is Sharp 92 series (ie 52") LCD TV use? I was checking it out in a store and was telling my wife that through its 176-176 viewing angles, there was actually no visible color change, just like plasma or CRT TV. The store emplyee said the 52" LCD panels in all 62, 64, 82, 92 series are the same type of LCD panel. Is that true?
the new 24" iMac uses a h-ips panel. the same one in the nec 2490. well from what a user posted up when he opened up the iMac.
i think a monitor is meant to show nice pictures.
tn panels dont show nice pictures all that well.
im sitting on a planar 26" at the moment. really, for all everyone hems and haws over their pc gaming or hdmi gaming experience, might as well just go IPS with almost 0 input lag. There are a few to choose from too.
i once was loving the VW. it looks cool, has loads of functions, nice pictures (a-mva's can have very nice ones) but... hearing about input lag and then not scaling properly over 480i/480p... just made me sad.
that being said, my friend picked up a Viewsonic 24" screen for kinda cheap. I have no idea what the panel is made out of but the price says tn all over the place. it is pretty decent for the price (sub 500 dollars for 1920x1200 good enough to rpg game on and look at nudies)
Are there are 24"ers out there regardless of price have the end-all solution that plagues this size of monitors?
I mean, I spent 600 dollars on my 2407, but I'm seriously considering dumping ~1000$ in to a different monitor if I can get a zero ghosting, zero input lag and a great contrast/colors that can handle my PC and my PS3.
I'd go 30" for some of the better monitors but I really like the 24" - I will still be able to game with decent effects on w/ good framerates, and I don't necessarily need that much monitor estate.
I mean, I spent 600 dollars on my 2407, but I'm seriously considering dumping ~1000$ in to a different monitor if I can get a zero ghosting, zero input lag and a great contrast/colors that can handle my PC and my PS3.
I'd go 30" for some of the better monitors but I really like the 24" - I will still be able to game with decent effects on w/ good framerates, and I don't necessarily need that much monitor estate.
Does the new 24" iMac LCD monitor has an external input? I mean can it accept external signal such as PC video?
Michaelius
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I think he doesn't want to use external monitor with mac. He want's to use Mac as monitor for PC
I think he doesn't want to use external monitor with mac. He want's to use Mac as monitor for PC
Yes, that is what I meant. Since the new iMac has almost the best LCD panel that is affordable, can I connect a PC to iMac's video input if there is such a thing and use iMac as a monitor?
No, this is a big problem with the all in one design.
Apple will probably be redesigning their standalone monitors soon, so I would expect there will soon be a 24" apple monitor with this very nice panel, BUT it will probably be nearly as expensive as the NEC 2490 and have less features. In which case the NEC makes more sense.
The Oatman
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I am personally quite happy with my P-MVA LG L246W. It has essentially no input lag, has HDMI, and wonderful colors. It also scales to lower resolutions fairly well. After calibrating it with a color spyder 2 color fidelity is quite good. I have zero dead or stuck pixels. Best part is it cost me only $500 + tax at BB.
Shadow detail and horizontal viewing angles are its main weaknesses. At first these bothered me somewhat but not anymore. The first thing I did on this monitor was play Bioshock, which is a shadow intensive game, this probably contributed to the initial disappointment.
Edit: Yeah I would have liked the H-IPS NEC but it was out of my budget. I would rather buy a new monitor in two years or so since display technologies are changing so fast.
Shadow detail and horizontal viewing angles are its main weaknesses. At first these bothered me somewhat but not anymore. The first thing I did on this monitor was play Bioshock, which is a shadow intensive game, this probably contributed to the initial disappointment.
Edit: Yeah I would have liked the H-IPS NEC but it was out of my budget. I would rather buy a new monitor in two years or so since display technologies are changing so fast.
mattchapman
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Why is HDMI a plus? I thought it just caused problems by not letting the monitor go into auto sleep mode when you turn off your PC. I was thinking about the LG until I heard this. Now I'll likely shoot for the 245BW until a reasonably cheap non-TN panel comes out without major flaws.
tempusfugit
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I'm looking for a 24" monitor too -image and color quality, and viewing angles are the most important parameters for my choice. Seems that Benq FP241WZ is the only way to go (I hate VW's aesthetics and Nec's 2470 costs another 150 euro, which unfortunately I can't afford)...
My question is whether I should wait or not? Are there any LCDs that are going to be announced soon (I could wait till February)?
My question is whether I should wait or not? Are there any LCDs that are going to be announced soon (I could wait till February)?
mattchapman
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There seem to be 1:1 and Blackout problems with the BENQ.
That is not the exactly true.
There is no 1:1 problem with DVI input, so it works for PS3, XBOX360, and PC. With other inputs, it is all depended on your different type of gaming consoles. Some has problem, others don't - just like any other LCD monitor.
Blackout problem as I mentioned before is more of a computer issue - problem with MacBook but fine with PC 8800 Ultra.
mattchapman
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It seems people with different specs have reported the problem so, to me, its a gamble as to whether you will experience it. Shame really because seems like a great monitor otherwise.
How is it in other areas (colors/input lag)? I don't mind about any other inputs - I just need a digital input for my PC and my PS3, the inverse ghosting on my 2407 is getting to me too much lately.
Well, I won't say it's perfect, but you could consider the Soyo 24". S-PVA panel and dirt cheap ($250 USD during Black Friday). A few discussion threads on it here at [H]:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1215729
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1240718
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1227542
I'm pretty happy with my current monitor, but for the money, I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on the Soyo myself. I figure if you can't find perfection, you'd may as well save as much money as possible. I'll probably be looking at extended warranties, though - depending on cost.
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1215729
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1240718
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1227542
I'm pretty happy with my current monitor, but for the money, I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on the Soyo myself. I figure if you can't find perfection, you'd may as well save as much money as possible. I'll probably be looking at extended warranties, though - depending on cost.
I think that as a computer monitor only, my Soyo is very close to perfect. Great colors, no dead pixels, no ghosting, no distortion. Very faint backlight bleed in bottom left that I only notice on a black screen if I intentionally look it.
Where are you seeing ads for the $250 price for Black Friday?
Where are you seeing ads for the $250 price for Black Friday?
tempusfugit
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Are there any models that are going to be announced in the near future that you know of?
That's not a flaw.
If I wasn't into PC gaming I'd be 100% on my 24" 2.8ghz C2D iMac right now. As it stands, I will probably be getting an NEC LCD2490WUXi to go with the new rig I will be building when the rest of the Penryns are released in January. Expensive, yes, but the closest to a solid all around performer I've heard of (and it is IPS).