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SystemCooling + AC
- Thread starter Erasmus354
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phide said:
Delrin looks like shit. Plexi is okay, but I have an affinity towards well machined components. So I would have to say that I will continue to use the aluminum reservoirs made by Aqua Computer.
BTW, they know of the risk which IS WHY they developed a product called AC Fluid. You use AC Fluid and it isn't a problem. Why is that so difficult to understand?
DFI Daishi said:
So who uses pure water in their cooling system? So how slow is slow? Will it create a definite problem in say 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Personally I don't give a rats ass if it corrodes to hell and back after 5 years because I will have long since been using something else.
DFI Daishi
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you know those warnings about using only the coolant additive produced by the brand of equipment you are using? those coolant additives that have an anti-corrosive component in the mix? if you follow those instructions, everything SHOULD be fine. and if you don't follow those instructions your warrenty is shot, so the company isn't too worried about it.Top Nurse said:So we get back to old saw about book knowledge vs street knowledge, heh? Seems that people can point to books and what not and say see I am right! However, the real world just stumbles along doing what you say is impossible. The real facts are incontrovertible are they not? Where are all the pictures? Where are all the screwed up systems being returned to manufacturer's? If what you say is true then all manufacturer's would be only selling copper systems because they wouldn't want to deal with the returns correct? So why are they selling mixed metal systems? Jeez...maybe because they work just fine?
however, when there is no need to have both Cu and Al in the loop to begin with, the coolant additive is just a bandaid solution. as phide pointed out earlier, in the auto industry when they mix metals, they have a nice thick coolant to prevent corrosion. they can use shuch a rich mix because they are only worried about the engine burning up, rather than how cool they can keep it.
incidently, galvanic corrosion, electro-plating and battery reactions are subjects that you guys should know from highschool chem. i'm not supprised about people not remembering them properly, but to deny the validity of their opperation.......i guess that you never run anything battery powered, since you don't believe in the reactions that make them work.
Galvanic corrosion is no longer really considered a problem now that it's well understood. To listen to people freak out about it here is like a panic that chlamydia is going ruin sex for everybody on the planet. You can use whatever metals you want as long as you take care of things.
At my previous job, I worked on a windmill to generate power that kept a battery charged used to protect a remote bridge in Canada from galvanic corrosion. You can actively use voltage to move something's galvanic potential. Deionized water should do the trick too, as long as it stays deionized. A 3rd solution is to do what the marine industry does and put a chuck of zinc in your reservoir. It's called a ~sacrificial anode~ if you want to google it. This will quickly ionize your water; however, it wasn't deionized in the first place if the cell begins to work.
At my previous job, I worked on a windmill to generate power that kept a battery charged used to protect a remote bridge in Canada from galvanic corrosion. You can actively use voltage to move something's galvanic potential. Deionized water should do the trick too, as long as it stays deionized. A 3rd solution is to do what the marine industry does and put a chuck of zinc in your reservoir. It's called a ~sacrificial anode~ if you want to google it. This will quickly ionize your water; however, it wasn't deionized in the first place if the cell begins to work.
DFI Daishi
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or you can avoid the issue in the first place since there is no reason to have Al in the loop to being with.af4now said:
yes, you can use an electrical protection scheme in a a lot of situations. i would wonder about it's effectiveness in this case, since the rad is almost certainly attached to the case and therefore well grounded. you'd nee to put in a good bit of voltage to keep a noticeable charge between the rad and whatever you have that is Al.
as for just running distilled or deionized water:
http://www.wc101.com/reviews/Additives/
even if it's distilled, water still has 10^-14 M of ions from self dissiociation.
once again, you could take preventative measures while mixing metals, or you could just select your hardware such that it's not a concern in the first place.
DFI Daishi
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it still isn't directly over the core.n00btard said:
madmat
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Top Nurse said:So where did you get this pic from and what was the date of it?
You guys always pop up with the same old pic...
So lets take some real life examples of what we are talking about. The Koolance EXOS has been around for a good deal of time now with multiple metals used in their systems. So where are all these corroded systems that should be abundant according to your theory?
In addition to Koolance there are many other manufacturers of water cooling systems that utilize multiple metals in their designs. Among them are Aqua Computer, Innovatek, Alphacool, and a bunch or other smaller less known companies. So where are all these pictures of their rotted out corroded systems? Due to the amount of these systems sold there should be thousands of pics floating around that show the type of corrosion you are talking about.
So we get back to old saw about book knowledge vs street knowledge, heh? Seems that people can point to books and what not and say see I am right! However, the real world just stumbles along doing what you say is impossible. The real facts are incontrovertible are they not? Where are all the pictures? Where are all the screwed up systems being returned to manufacturer's? If what you say is true then all manufacturer's would be only selling copper systems because they wouldn't want to deal with the returns correct? So why are they selling mixed metal systems? Jeez...maybe because they work just fine?
That pic is from 2004, why the hell the date matters is beyond me, metal reacts the same today as it did 2 years ago, Jesus.
Koolance uses more than a 90/10 mixture. Go figure. This pic is relevent to what the person said that I quoted and the story that goes along with it is the absolute truth. You don't want the truth because you can't handle the truth.
Sux to be you.
thewhiteguy
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Had to be done:madmat said:
Nah.. I actually like Danny over at Dtek. I remember the days of the $pir@l with himthewhiteguy said:No snappy name for Dtek?
What everyone is failing to realize is unless you use the Aquagraphic block with the copper core, there is no problem unless you run straight tap water.
R1ckCa1n said:Nah.. I actually like Danny over at Dtek. I remember the days of the $pir@l with him
What everyone is failing to realize is unless you use the Aquagraphic block with the copper core, there is no problem unless you run straight tap water.
R1cK,
I agree with you, but debating with "TWG" is an exercise in futility, something like having a battle of witts with an unarmed person.
madmat said:
You sure that is from 2004? Did you take it yourself? Do you know all the factors behind it? Doubtful, or you would have included them as well with your shock value pic.
I'm a nurse so trust me that I can handle any truth.
The problem here is that you keep dredging up this photo proclaiming to the world that this is what happens when you mix metals. I totally agree with you in a limited fashion. However, what you fail to realize is that this kind of nonsense only goes on when you use tap water....so who uses tap water? Only a fool because the problems you get are more likely to be a bloom of biologicals before you wouold ever get any corrosion problems, which BTW appears to have also appeared in that pic as well.So then we get on to the mixture of additives (chemicals) to stop this kind of reaction, which then is stated to be detrimental to cooling. It might very well be if one uses chemicals not designed for the intended use like products designed for automotive cooling systems. Then of course we get into the viscosity issue from using incorrectly designed chemicals for the issue at hand. IIRC, the correct mixture of AC Fluid is 2% because it is correctly designed for the task at hand. It also doesn't have much more in the way of viscosity than many of these non-conductive fluids do and when mixed properly with distilled water it is almost undistinguishable from pure water in consistency or viscosity to the human eye and senses. Not including taste
As I have belabored to instruct you before, the reason AC (and many other other companies) products work well is because they are engineered as a total solution and not a mis-mash of products essentially developed by machine shops engaged in the business of water cooling. The main difference here is that one school of thought emanates from a machine shop mentality and the other school of thought is the one which has taken the high road of developing well designed systems to solve the problems of water cooling. Thus we have seen Koolance, AC, and others draw upon various disciplines to marry electronics, chemistry, and engineering to a common goal of the Total Water Cooling Concept. Which is why companies like Koolance, Aqua Computer, Alphacool, and others are prospering. If you look at the simple market forces that are going on around you it should be obvious.
The use of violence or crude words is the last resort for the incompetent man.
theseeker said:
BTW, has anyone else noticed that the only people who want big bore systems are people who want water cooling on a budget? The more affluent water coolers seem to be after Koolance, Aqua Computer, and other companies that provide for the Total Water Cooling Concept.
I'm just keeping you guys entertained till the review comes out
A matter of opinion, of course - and one you're entitled to. Most machinists would be shocked to hear such a statement, however. How is acetal a poor machining material?Top Nurse said:
They developed a product called AC fluid so that the galvanically dissimilar metals they use don't, quite literally, eat each other. The point of the discussion is not AC Fluid, nor is it about how well AC Fluid works. The point of the discussion is that, by making changes, AC Fluid can be eliminated completely.Top Nurse said:
I think there's really just a disconnect in each of our "schools of thought". You want aluminum (and thus AC Fluid) while some of us are scratching our heads, wondering why they don't replace aluminum with plastics and remove AC Fluid from the picture entirely. My stance is that simplicity, safety and efficiency are top priorities, while you believe that Apperance is the Ultimate priority and sacrifices must be made to ensure that Appearance is upheld.
I doubt, very highly, that that photo is indicative of what would happen in six months with distilled water. If you want to try and validate your stance, put up or shutup.madmat said:
Top Nurse said:
I'm fairly certain I have more money in my "big bore" configuration than you have in your Aqua Computer configuration, but this isn't a pissing contest... or is it?
I'm not sure what affluency has to do with performance. Perhaps you believe Lee's evaluation will state, quite clearly, that Aqua Computer products perform better in a testing environment because their products are excessively overpriced.
If you're so uninterested in performance, why are you interested in a performance evaluation?
Erasmus354
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Top Nurse said:You sure that is from 2004? Did you take it yourself? Do you know all the factors behind it? Doubtful, or you would have included them as well with your shock value pic.
I'm a nurse so trust me that I can handle any truth.
So then we get on to the mixture of additives (chemicals) to stop this kind of reaction, which then is stated to be detrimental to cooling. It might very well be if one uses chemicals not designed for the intended use like products designed for automotive cooling systems. Then of course we get into the viscosity issue from using incorrectly designed chemicals for the issue at hand. IIRC, the correct mixture of AC Fluid is 2% because it is correctly designed for the task at hand. It also doesn't have much more in the way of viscosity than many of these non-conductive fluids do and when mixed properly with distilled water it is almost undistinguishable from pure water in consistency or viscosity to the human eye and senses. Not including taste
As I have belabored to instruct you before, the reason AC (and many other other companies) products work well is because they are engineered as a total solution and not a mis-mash of products essentially developed by machine shops engaged in the business of water cooling. The main difference here is that one school of thought emanates from a machine shop mentality and the other school of thought is the one which has taken the high road of developing well designed systems to solve the problems of water cooling. Thus we have seen Koolance, AC, and others draw upon various disciplines to marry electronics, chemistry, and engineering to a common goal of the Total Water Cooling Concept. Which is why companies like Koolance, Aqua Computer, Alphacool, and others are prospering. If you look at the simple market forces that are going on around you it should be obvious.
The use of violence or crude words is the last resort for the incompetent man.
You should run for president TN, that is the biggest load of tripe and BS I have heard on this forum to date. You make some valid points, but you mix it in with so much of your propaganda and stilted logic that you draw the attention away from the good points and towards your manic hatred of everything not small bore.
I have tried to stay out of these arguments, mainly because I can't back up my opinionated ideals with facts. It's like farting against thunder.
Like all competitions between sides, antagonism breeds contempt. I stayed away from larger bore because of it's size, it wasn't an option in my case. I was originally looking at Cooler Master water cooling stuff because it was smaller bore and relatively cheap. Thankfully the CM wc gear was hard to get here in the UK, after I read about quality problems and leaks. After extending my build time frame I could stretch out my budget a bit and go AC.
Why AC? They are all my opinions, here comes that thunder again.
Like all competitions between sides, antagonism breeds contempt. I stayed away from larger bore because of it's size, it wasn't an option in my case. I was originally looking at Cooler Master water cooling stuff because it was smaller bore and relatively cheap. Thankfully the CM wc gear was hard to get here in the UK, after I read about quality problems and leaks. After extending my build time frame I could stretch out my budget a bit and go AC.
Why AC? They are all my opinions, here comes that thunder again.
phide said:
You might very well, but I would think that is highly unlikely since I have 3 seperate independently controlled loops in my box. Some of the blocks are made out of silver as well and I intend to have some more. BTW, the silver is for looks and style more than performance though perhaps it may give a slight advantage over copper.
Affluency has little to do with performance per se, but it is interesting to note that people who are affluent tend to purchase things that have more bang for the buck than other things do relatively speaking. For instance, a blown top fuel dragster is extremely quick in the quater mile yes? But what would you rather have to drive around in, a dragster or a Masserati all things being equal?
Personally I could care less about a performance evaluation as it wouldn't make a difference in my use of Aqua Computer products. I'm just grateful to see any evaluation that is in English that people can look at.
P.S. I apologize profusely for the car analogy.
Erasmus354 said:
I can see that there is some merit to having a liberal arts background combined with the science side of nursing. Makes for a more well rounded personality who can explain salient points in an easy to read format.
Actually I have no hate whatsoever for big bore cooling. It's just doesn't fit in with my perception of life. Perhaps some day I will do something different and build such a water cooling system. Probably not likely, but possible.
madmat
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Top Nurse said:You sure that is from 2004? Did you take it yourself? Do you know all the factors behind it? Doubtful, or you would have included them as well with your shock value pic.
I'm a nurse so trust me that I can handle any truth.
So then we get on to the mixture of additives (chemicals) to stop this kind of reaction, which then is stated to be detrimental to cooling. It might very well be if one uses chemicals not designed for the intended use like products designed for automotive cooling systems. Then of course we get into the viscosity issue from using incorrectly designed chemicals for the issue at hand. IIRC, the correct mixture of AC Fluid is 2% because it is correctly designed for the task at hand. It also doesn't have much more in the way of viscosity than many of these non-conductive fluids do and when mixed properly with distilled water it is almost undistinguishable from pure water in consistency or viscosity to the human eye and senses. Not including taste
As I have belabored to instruct you before, the reason AC (and many other other companies) products work well is because they are engineered as a total solution and not a mis-mash of products essentially developed by machine shops engaged in the business of water cooling. The main difference here is that one school of thought emanates from a machine shop mentality and the other school of thought is the one which has taken the high road of developing well designed systems to solve the problems of water cooling. Thus we have seen Koolance, AC, and others draw upon various disciplines to marry electronics, chemistry, and engineering to a common goal of the Total Water Cooling Concept. Which is why companies like Koolance, Aqua Computer, Alphacool, and others are prospering. If you look at the simple market forces that are going on around you it should be obvious.
The use of violence or crude words is the last resort for the incompetent man.
Yes, I'm certain of the date of the pic and the circumstances surrounding it and no I didn't take the pic myself but I know the year quite well. The person that took the pic was the person that owned the block, a member of the PimpRig forums and a friend of a co-moderator of mine from Voided Warranty, My friend's handle there is SPECIALBLEND218 And due to time I've forgotten the name of his friend from PimpRig.
He'd bought his block at about the same time I'd bought mine (Yes I have one exactly like it except mine's blue) and when the new Acetal tops came out in early '04 he bought one and split his block to put it on and that was what he'd found. Now, why I remember all this is my friend was appologizing to me (Backhandedly) for giving me crap because I run such a rich mixture of antifreeze in my loop (25%) and he'd always gave me hell saying 10% was plenty to prevent bimetalic corrosion. The guy that owned that block ran 10% and well, it obviously wasn't enough.
As to the use of crudeties, hell, you're no shining example of not using them now are you? I've seen you spitting out more than your fair share of filth.
Has anyone considered that the ONE block all the "haters" continue to post has a very poor annodizing job? There is a large thread on ProCooling about this subject and most of the senior members agreed that a good annodizing job is first priority. My first Dtek video card block http://www.dtekcustoms.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=92 had problems within a few short months yet my AC loops have never experienced such problems.
Point of this is with the correct fluids, one doesn't have to worry about all these problems. Then again, it gives the "haters" something to bitch about, right?
Point of this is with the correct fluids, one doesn't have to worry about all these problems. Then again, it gives the "haters" something to bitch about, right?
DFI Daishi
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point is, with the correct materials you don't have to worry about corrosion in the first place. why is the Al being used in the first place? is there any technical merit at all to using aluminium in the loop? when last i checked, it's there purely for looks, and therefore can be replaced with something that doesn't react with copper, since other materials work just as well and have fewer assiociated problems.R1ckCa1n said:
BTW, has anyone else noticed that TN, one of the most vocal advocates for AC gear, doesn't actually have a running system with which to demonstrate all this German goodness?Top Nurse said:
Apparently the Total Water Cooling Concept doesn't require actually moving any water- a brilliant innovation that should soon revolutionize the industry.
C'mon TN, your worklog is brilliant, the pics are superb and the craftmanship undeniable but
fer crissakes, get the damn thing running and then blow your horn as loudly and widely as you want.
Till then, my big-bore Top Fuel system beats your up-on-blocks Maserati any day.
Top Nurse said:
Very possible. Silver looks great (though my G5 is pretty much entirely covered by Delrin), and there are other advantages besides performance. Silver is, in my opinion, absolutely the material to have for baseplates (or anything else, for that matter - a silver AquaTube would be pretty slick). The performance advantage depends on the design of the block. A short pin grid block such as the Cuplex will yield little improvement over the same block in copper. Which blocks do you have in silver? I'd be interested in taking a gander at anything made with such a wonderful metal.
Top Nurse said:
I actually like automotive analogies when discussing water cooling. They seem to work fairly well most of the time. I'll take the hassle of giant, finicky tubing and big, loud pumps over something more reasonable, though I can't say my loop's a top fuel dragster. If AC is a Masserati, then I'm driving a gutted, race-ready Ferrari. You can drive it, and it's bitchin' fun, but the comfort just isn't really there, and I'm okay with that. Different people, different needs and different tastes. Besides which, a top fuel dragster wouldn't be so terrible to cruise around in, though you'd need to be damn sure you can make those turns
Top Nurse said:Personally I could care less about a performance evaluation as it wouldn't make a difference in my use of Aqua Computer products. I'm just grateful to see any evaluation that is in English that people can look at.
Agreed. I don't suppose I care what the data will reveal. If there's a massive gap, there's a massive gap. If there isn't, there isn't. I don't imagine it would be a huge consideration if I were to buy some AC gear, unless the difference is truly night and day (I'll bet anyone here that it won't be).
DFI Daishi said:
All things being said, I don't think Aqua Computer shouldn't continue to offer anodized aluminum products. Aluminum is really the entire theme of the components, and a good choice for looks, as aluminum has a wonderfully unique sort of "sheen" that really isn't seen in any other material. Color anodization is great, and if done with proper considerations, is a fairly acceptable process for components in a mixed metal configuration. Not acceptable to me, or to many others, but acceptable to most. I just happen to think that other materials could be offered. Give me an acetal option, and I'll buy some AC gear. Would allow me to run a system sans AC Fluid, making everything a bit easier. Might make a pretty killer plugin/sampling rig to take from studio to studio - clients always like something nice to look at, and it's tough to beat the German stuff as far as appearance goes.
Erasmus354
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R1ckCa1n said:I guess you have not smelled AC Fluid....
mmmm, yummy pancakes!
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1021945 <-- no less than three people with the same problem running AC loops with AC Fluid...
AC needs to wake up, aluminium is dead, so this is thier so called best german engineering by mixing metals in a WC setup.
As for AC fluid or any other stuff you only deley the corosion, the best way is to prevent it by eliminating the problem i.e. never mix metals period.
As for AC fluid or any other stuff you only deley the corosion, the best way is to prevent it by eliminating the problem i.e. never mix metals period.
DFI Daishi
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sweet like glycol sweet, or something different?R1ckCa1n said:I guess you have not smelled AC Fluid....
on this relatively peacefull side note: the conformal coating that i use to condenstion proof my gear makes the boards smell like banannas. only downside is that it's highly poisonous -> contains a number of chemicals in the benzene family.
as for what style of car i'd like my computer to represent: i'm not into dragster or ring racing, it's boring. i'd much rather have a rally prepared sedan, and loeb's citron seems to be doing well in WRC standing so far this year.
It's WRC season again? Damn... I haven't been paying attention. How's Peugeot doing?
If AC Fluid smells like blueberry pancakes, then I might have to take a walk on the other side of the fence. Otherwise, I won't do it!
Nobody's really saying this. I'd say it's probably fairly safe to mix metals with a difference of .4V on the Anodic index (when water cooling) - we've been talking about silver and copper a bit, and that's a certainly a go. Copper and brass is also no problem at all. We're not dealing with extreme conditions or coolants with high concentrations of solid particles - always assume distilled water as a bare minimum.
We really have to be realistic about the corrosion issue. The best we can do is to pick an anodic voltage variance and say, "Try not to surpass this when using distilled water, because this accelerates corrosion to a point that is unacceptable for a typical timeline." Using corrosion inhibitors can increase this limit.
It's a timeline issue. You need to try to make assumptions about what level of corrosion is acceptable and how long it takes to reach that level of corrosion. For most situations, we're talking about a matter of years. Unless you have some super-special limited edition block (a Storm G5/G7, Cascade SS, silver Cuplex or what have you) that you want to keep for a decade, feel "okay" about using anodized aluminum and copper/silver/brass components with a proper corrosion inhibitor in the same loop. If you don't want the corrosion inhibitor, then you need to reduce the voltage variance between components by changing components.
I'll always take the stance that one should always try to use only similar (or identical) metals, since it makes the most sense from a standpoint of practicaility, safety and long term cost. I can't think of any reason why anyone wouldn't care about seeing significant corrosion in components in any span of time. Play the safe game and keep that old Maze 3 in as good a condition as the day you bought it.
If AC Fluid smells like blueberry pancakes, then I might have to take a walk on the other side of the fence. Otherwise, I won't do it!
kleox64 said:
Nobody's really saying this. I'd say it's probably fairly safe to mix metals with a difference of .4V on the Anodic index (when water cooling) - we've been talking about silver and copper a bit, and that's a certainly a go. Copper and brass is also no problem at all. We're not dealing with extreme conditions or coolants with high concentrations of solid particles - always assume distilled water as a bare minimum.
We really have to be realistic about the corrosion issue. The best we can do is to pick an anodic voltage variance and say, "Try not to surpass this when using distilled water, because this accelerates corrosion to a point that is unacceptable for a typical timeline." Using corrosion inhibitors can increase this limit.
It's a timeline issue. You need to try to make assumptions about what level of corrosion is acceptable and how long it takes to reach that level of corrosion. For most situations, we're talking about a matter of years. Unless you have some super-special limited edition block (a Storm G5/G7, Cascade SS, silver Cuplex or what have you) that you want to keep for a decade, feel "okay" about using anodized aluminum and copper/silver/brass components with a proper corrosion inhibitor in the same loop. If you don't want the corrosion inhibitor, then you need to reduce the voltage variance between components by changing components.
I'll always take the stance that one should always try to use only similar (or identical) metals, since it makes the most sense from a standpoint of practicaility, safety and long term cost. I can't think of any reason why anyone wouldn't care about seeing significant corrosion in components in any span of time. Play the safe game and keep that old Maze 3 in as good a condition as the day you bought it.
That is not AC Fluid as it is a different color. That looks like too much dye.Erasmus354 said:
mmmm, yummy pancakes!
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1021945 <-- no less than three people with the same problem running AC loops with AC Fluid...
did you even read that thread?
thewhiteguy
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Only by chance.R1ckCa1n said:
Punx_Clever
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R1ckCa1n said:
Did you even read that thread? Thats on the first post rigth before the picture!